Manipulation and the Collector Appeal of High Grade

[Paul_Maul]

Just read a large chunk of the "Manufactured Gold" thread. Throughout the thread,

many posters suggest that a majority of collectors don't care about pressing

or other "undetectable" forms of manipulation.

 

In considering this claim, I thought about what it is that motivates collectors of high

grade books that do not intend to resell them:

 

1. A love for the aesthetic beauty of a really high grade book

2. An attraction toward the rarity of an older book that has survived in really high grade

3. The appeal of a book that, against all odds, has remained in its original condition

4. The sense of being transported back in time that a book in its original condition provides

5. The "pride of ownership" that one feels in owning one of the best examples of a given book

 

There may be other reasons I'm missing. However, in my opinion, books manipulated

into high grade offer almost none of the satisfaction (in terms of the above factors) that

books in their original, unaltered condition do.

 

In fact, to me, the greatest appeal of high grade books is being transported back to

the time of innocence in my life when they were new. Nothing ruins that feeling more

than finding out the book was manipulated into this state.

 

In short, I have a hard time understanding what the appeal of a manipulated

high grade book would be to a high grade collector with no intent to flip the book.

Can anyone offer insight?

[arexcrooke]

Just read a large chunk of the "Manufactured Gold" thread. Throughout the thread,

many posters suggest that a majority of collectors don't care about pressing

or other "undetectable" forms of manipulation.

 

In considering this claim, I thought about what it is that motivates collectors of high

grade books that do not intend to resell them:

 

1. A love for the aesthetic beauty of a really high grade book

2. An attraction toward the rarity of an older book that has survived in really high grade

3. The appeal of a book that, against all odds, has remained in its original condition

4. The sense of being transported back in time that a book in its original condition provides

5. The "pride of ownership" that one feels in owning one of the best examples of a given book

 

There may be other reasons I'm missing. However, in my opinion, books manipulated

into high grade offer almost none of the satisfaction (in terms of the above factors) that

books in their original, unaltered condition do.

 

In fact, to me, the greatest appeal of high grade books is being transported back to

the time of innocence in my life when they were new. Nothing ruins that feeling more

than finding out the book was manipulated into this state.

 

In short, I have a hard time understanding what the appeal of a manipulated

high grade book would be to a high grade collector with no intent to flip the book.

Can anyone offer insight?

Excellent thread!

I think that you hit on why I want HG books in reasons 1-4.

I too agree that altered books dont hold the same sway with me. I understand that if I am going to get the HG keys, then they most likely would have to be restored, but I want my books to be untampered with.

The only thing I can see as the reason why you would want a manipulated book if you werent going to flip it would be having a flawless book and not caring how it got there. Ego perhaps is the same thing.

[Flaming_Telepath]

Dave,

 

I could not agree more.

 

Remember those Northland Adventures you sold me? They sum up to me the appeal. They will never go anywhere, nor ever be manipulated, nor ever be slabbed.

 

Because they are unspoiled history there in my hands.

 

Everything else is about the coin, unfortunately.

[trevorlsmith]

My primary motivator for collecting high grade books resembles the first reason described in your post, i.e., the aesthetic beauty.

 

If that were the only reason I collected said books, then such manipulation as pressing would not bother me in the slightest. For that matter, restoration, when done properly, would be welcome as it improves both the structural and aesthetic qualities of a book.

 

Basically, the appeal of high grade books even after some particularly non-intrusive procedure (e.g., pressing) is still strong if your only motivator in collecting these books is eye appeal.

[Paul_Maul]

My primary motivator for collecting high grade books resembles the first reason described in your post, i.e., the aesthetic beauty.

 

If that were the only reason I collected said books, then such manipulation as pressing would not bother me in the slightest. For that matter, restoration, when done properly, would be welcome as it improves both the structural and aesthetic qualities of a book.

 

Basically, the appeal of high grade books even after some particularly non-intrusive procedure (e.g., pressing) is still strong if your only motivator in collecting these books is eye appeal.

 

I actually did consider this. It does raise the question of whether or not such a collector

would be pleased with a perfect reproduction, which is just the limiting case of a

restored book with pieces replaced.

[Red Hook]

I would say that one of the major reasons I dig the pedigree books I collect is because they coincide exactly with the time period in which I was collecting seriously. I was a marvel head and the gr books I have are mostly Marvels....but I've grown to appreciate the DCs since I joined the board here over three years ago.

 

I have books that range from 5.5 to 9.6 and I enjoy them equally. It doesn't matter what the particular grade is.

 

Also, my love for the art in the books I collected in the sixties definitely had a lot to do with the career choice I chose. So the artwork is something I really enjoy too....I can stare at a great cover over and over, and never get tired of it.

 

I also feel that historically, these books are a prime part of American Pop Culture history, akin to jazz, as a uniquely American invention. There are few art forms that America can claim as her own and I think the comic book is one of the most important ones. I think that has to do with my sense of "protectionism" when it comes to unnecessary work done on books. They were meant to be disposable, are incredibly fragile, and I think the condition of them should be respected and left alone, unless it's a last ditch conservation project.

[Paul_Maul]

Red, all the factors you listed are definitely important reasons to love and enjoy

comics. I was getting more at what motivates specifically high grade collecting,

because that is pretty clearly the collecting base that is being targeted by manipulated

books.

 

Certainly a love of the content of comics underlies the importance that these things

have to those willing to pay large sums of money for them. But what is it that makes

one guy crave a 9.6 and another be content with a 7.0? I'm curious whether

discovering a cherished book is pressed or otherwise manipulated deflates the

elation for most HG collectors or not. It definitely does for me.

[Red Hook]

I see. I guess I'm generally immune to the uber-grade-itis.

[alecholland]

It is a byproduct of our culture that nearly everything eventually gets reduced down to the almighty dollar. If there is a buck to be made, there is always somebody willing to do anything to make it.

[trevorlsmith]

I actually did consider this. It does raise the question of whether or not such a collector

would be pleased with a perfect reproduction, which is just the limiting case of a

restored book with pieces replaced.

 

I just wrote out a response to you, but somehow closed the window as I was trying to submit. In short, I said:

 

A perfect reproduction should sate the absolute case we are talking about. However, this is a very slippery slope. It is hard to create bright lines because most collectors do not fit smoothly into an "eye appeal only" category.

 

I would venture to guess that most high-grade collectors, attracted primarily by the aesthetic qualites of a book, still want an original copy:

 

As for me, I want as close to a perfect example as I can find. Why? Because I am distracted by the flaws in a book. I have a hard time enjoying an otherwise perfect book with a subscription crease down the middle or even a bad spine crease. A perfect reproduction would satisfy the high-grade aspect of my collecting, but not the collecting itself.

 

In my case, it is best said like this. I collect original comic books first and foremost. Within that, I collect high-grade examples.

 

Restoration bothers me because I know that a flaw exists (or existed) and has just been fixed. If there is a spot of color touch hiding a corner flake of color that chipped off, my eye will be drawn to that dab of color. It is distracting not because it is obvious, but because I know it is present. Pressing on the other hand, does not add anything to a book so it does not bother me. I am not distracted by the knowledge that there was once a non-color breaking crease that was pressed out.

 

I think of it like this. I have no problem walking into Barney's or Bergdorf's to buy a few button downs with the knowledge that someone else may have already tried them on and the store had them ironed to hide the creases that the fella before me caused. I will still pay FULL PRICE, and I won't consider them second-hand. However, if the guy before me caused a rip that was later mended or spilt his coffee and it was later cleaned, I would not want to purchase the shirt even if there is no collateral evidence of the alterations. I hope that makes sense.

[nik]

I may be way off base with my statement but this is just my opinion.

 

I believe the majority of the so called HG collector, i.e. 9.6 and better, looks at a HG slab in the dollar sense. He is buying these books for future selling and could not really care whats in the slab or how it got that way. So I personally do not consider them true collectors but more along the lines of hybernating flippers.

 

Most of the HG real collectors that I have met, 95% or better of the time will buy the book raw. They will examine it, hold it, feel it and come to the conclusion that this is my perfect book, and will pay accordingly.

[kc120us]

I may be way off base with my statement but this is just my opinion.

 

I believe the majority of the so called HG collector, i.e. 9.6 and better, looks at a HG slab in the dollar sense. He is buying these books for future selling and could not really care whats in the slab or how it got that way. So I personally do not consider them true collectors but more along the lines of hybernating flippers.

 

Most of the HG real collectors that I have met, 95% or better of the time will buy the book raw. They will examine it, hold it, feel it and come to the conclusion that this is my perfect book, and will pay accordingly.

 

I don't think you're off base, Nikos. I just don't think it is the majority of HG collectors. I, for one, collect HG for the reasons stated in the first post. Asthetic appeal, pride in owning a top census book, etc. I plan on holding my books for at least the next 25-30 years and, if my kids don't want them, then I will sell them. I also buy only slabbed books off the internet because it is still the safest thing going, in my opinion.

 

That being said, there is a faction among us that buy HG books solely for financial purposes. I hesitate to say the word collect because, as you said, they buy books only to flip them. They don't collect. And they are the ones who, I believe, are behind the crack/press/resub/sell game. I haven't heard of anyone who has cracked/pressed/resubbed and then kept the book in their collection.

 

Is there anyone who has done this just to add the book to their personal collection?

[trevorlsmith]

I collect high-grade marvels, and more than 90% of what I purchase is slabbed. It is possible that I am, without being aware, a "hybernating flipper," however, I am not sure that is the case.

 

I used to collect comics from approximately 9 to 14 or so. For whatever reason, I didn't purchase another book until I was about 25. I am 28 now. When I reentered comic collecting it was hesitantly. I was bored one afternoon and at my mother's house, over a break from grad school, and went through a long box of old comics. I read 10 or so issues of the Wolverine series. A few days later I went into a local B & N and saw the newest Overstreet. I picked it up and noticed some of the ads for cgc.

 

I was interested in purchasing high-grade copies of some of the books that I had considered grails (or too expensive) when I was a kid. I had a good deal of money burning a whole in my pocket. However, I had no connection to the comic world. I had no friends that collected, no longer had a local comic shop, and was not exactly wanting to go to a convention. To this day my connections to the comic world are limited to this board.

 

After some research, I concluded that with my limited knowledge of grading, slabs seemed the best route. Afterall, that is what they were designed for...to facilitate on-line, basically blind trading.

 

Since then, I have purchased approximately 250 high-grade marvel slabs and have never sold a single one. I satisfy my comic reading habits via TPBs. I am sharing this because I imagine that many have a similar story, and are not "hybernating flippers." I do not look at my collection in a purely dollar sense, although I am aware of what I have spent and its current value. I look at my books as a growing collection of nice examples of books that I wanted as a kid.

[MutantKeys]

I dont consider myself a high grade collector since for the most part the only high grade slabs I buy are X-men. Even if the label says 9.8 I usually take a couple of minutes to examine every aspect of the book that is visible.Also for the most part any CGC that I buy will stay in my personal collection until I get old and have kids,etc not to sell or "flip"

[nik]

Did not mean to offend you in any way

 

I just happen to think that you are part of the minority of HG collectors. Your motives and situation is different then the majority.

 

And for the record, I also enjoy and cherish HG books, and 95% of my collection was purchased Raw over the years and do not plan on selling/cracking/whatever and resubbing.

[trevorlsmith]

I wasn't offended at all. I read your disclaimer in the first sentence.

 

As I said in my previous post, I was sharing my story because I have heard several like mine on these boards and felt that there are quite a few people in like positions.

[Comicdey]

I'm always happy with the range of grades from poor to nm in my collection....I tend to sell high grade slabs for those that want to complete their runs, and I backfill my collection with raw books in whatever grade they come in. There are some books that I want in high grade, like most colletors, and I'll keep those and be satisfied. I don't need to upgrade from a 9.0 to a 9.4, but with that said, if I had a choice and both were in front of me, I might justify to myself that I need the higher grade book to satisfy mysefl.

 

I'm always happy with a solid 9.0-9.2 range...once you get 9.6 or above, it makes no sense to handle the book outside protection...that's why the 9.0 books make collecting/reading more accessible...and I love nothing more than a really nice reader copy with a beatiful loose cover you can take off when you read the interior pages...

[jools&jim]

...and I love nothing more than a really nice reader copy with a beatiful loose cover you can take off when you read the interior pages...

 

 

I still have the very first comic book I ever bought off the racks, way back in 1972: Avengers #103. The cover is long gone, but it's more valuable to me than all the other high-dollar comics in my collection combined.

 

...which brings up an interesting point: dunno 'bout you lot, but when I was heavily reading and collecting comics back in the '70s as a kid, the books may have started off "new and fresh" from the newsstand and 7-11 or wherever (debatable, though, since comics on the racks were often mangled by browsers), but by the time my friends and I got done with 'em, they were pretty well thrashed...still readable, though, which was the point. So a brown cardboard box full of un-bagged G/VG comics from the '70s actually inspires more nostalgia for that bygone age, for me at least, than an acid-free carton full of minty-fresh 9.8s hermetically sealed up in their plastic boxes...

 

3.0...it's the new 9.8.

 

-Mikey

[Comicdey]

I'm afraid to touch the 9.6-10.0 variety comics...................I love books that are already beat so I can read them or flip through and not worry...

 

that's why lower grade ASM/FF/B&B issues are so much fun and probably why they'll always hold their value in lower grades.

[joeypost]

I don't see anything wrong with collecting both. I have high grade slabs and a few boxes of books in the FN range that I enjoy reading and sharing with my kids. I only started collecting slabs because I like the presentation.