WTF?? The book sold for HOW MUCH?

[adamstrange]

 

I agree with West on this one. Most very large pedigrees have some lower grade children, but they are still children and shouldn't be disowned.

 

.

 

I do not disagree with that. I just find it incredibly odd that the one collection I have seen in which CGC applies a different standard and DOES exclude books based on condition are the ones from Lee's collection -- which is also the one collection I can find that was NOT BASED ON CONDITION in the first place.

 

Palo Alto?

[sacentaur]

I didn't say to "de-pedigree" books, just that the Crippen collection and several others contain books that are not of pedigree quality. The major reason that the pedigree designation started to come into use was to indicate that the more subjective aspects of a comic (e.g. page quality, cover colors, and state of preservation) existed to a degree that was uncommonly high and that the collection had a set of important comics in high grade.

 

In the case of the Church copies, those appear to have a uniformly high state of preservation even when the copy has structural defects. Were their exceptions to this when the collection was first found? Have some of the books been stored in appropriately since then? I would say the answer to both is yes, but I suspect that this is quite a tiny percentage.

 

In the case of the Crippen books, the majority of the books do not appear to have page quality, cover colors, and state of preservation that is a higher degree than is typically found. Nor is it like a File Copy set where the structural qualities are uniformly high. So if you are buying a Crippen with the express thought that it will have these more subjective qualities you would be best off taking a close look at the copy in question.

 

The fact that the collection contains many of the highest graded copies is partly due to the fact that many issues are being slabbed only because the books are being sold through Heritage and they are issues that have few if any slabbed copies due to overall lack of interest in the title/issue I am aware that there are many Crippen books that are particularly outstanding and are the highest graded copy even in cases where this is demand and many issues have been slabbed.

 

The point that I was not making so clearly last night (sorry, it's been a long week), is that the definition of pedigree, as it is sometimes or commonly used today, is elastic enough that it provides little guidance to the specific qualities of a particular comic book from a collection. Even simpler, buy the book not the label.

 

Very well said, adam...

 

STEVE

[ciorac]

The "pedrigree" distinction has indeed been watered down over the years. The Stan Lee books to me are more "provenance" than pedigree, same for Nicholas Cage books, etc. They are cool because of who previously owned them. Pedigrees, in the classic sense of the word, were amassed by an original owner from the time of publication and are overwhelmingly in high grade. Church, Allentown, Denver, San Francisco, etc.

 

In my opinion only of course.

 

When we brought the More Fun Collection to market, we called it a "collection" not a pedigree.

[The Black Hand ®]

I have one of those more fun books, a Top Notch 21,is there any significance to that collection?

[bluechip]

The "pedrigree" distinction has indeed been watered down over the years. The Stan Lee books to me are more "provenance" than pedigree, same for Nicholas Cage books, etc. They are cool because of who previously owned them. Pedigrees, in the classic sense of the word, were amassed by an original owner from the time of publication and are overwhelmingly in high grade. Church, Allentown, Denver, San Francisco, etc.

 

In my opinion only of course.

 

When we brought the More Fun Collection to market, we called it a "collection" not a pedigree.

 

 

All impossible to disagree with.

 

 

And all the more reason why it's just stupefying that a pro-slabbing service would choose to leave the name of the previous owner off a book if it's low grade because that's essentially saying if it's low grade, he didn't own it.

 

[tth2]

And all the more reason why it's just stupefying that a pro-slabbing service would choose to leave the name of the previous owner off a book if it's low grade because that's essentially saying if it's low grade, he didn't own it.

You`re not happy with CGC`s discrimination against the Stan Lee books. Okay, we get it.

 

But why their treatment of Lee books (which aren`t even a pedigree in the first place, just a collection) should force them to disqualify books that are clearly parts of pedigreed collections (and I don`t agree with Adamstrange that the D books aren`t pedigree-worthy) is beyond me.

[adamstrange]

(and I don`t agree with Adamstrange that the D books aren`t pedigree-worthy)

 

I have not made this broad of a statement nor do I think that it is implied in what I wrote. I did say that many of the books in the Crippen collection are not of pedigree quality, as the original defintion of the word was understood in the hobby.

 

I do not think that there is a single definition of pedigree that is widely accepted any more so I tried to provide a bit more background in my prior post. In a different thread you have posted that you are not entirely comfortable with what CGC seems to define as a pedigree. But I suspect that a little more careful defining of terms would show that you and I are not quite so far apart as you are suggesting.

[bluechip]

And all the more reason why it's just stupefying that a pro-slabbing service would choose to leave the name of the previous owner off a book if it's low grade because that's essentially saying if it's low grade, he didn't own it.

You`re not happy with CGC`s discrimination against the Stan Lee books. Okay, we get it.

 

But why their treatment of Lee books (which aren`t even a pedigree in the first place, just a collection) should force them to disqualify books that are clearly parts of pedigreed collections (and I don`t agree with Adamstrange that the D books aren`t pedigree-worthy) is beyond me.

 

 

Forgive the repetition, but the way people failed to respond to the previous mention made me wonder if anybody had indeed "got it." And I was looking to see how others felt about it. Always thought that sort of discourse was what this sort of board is about. So when I make a point like that and it gets no response from people who talk about everything but... I can't help wondering if the point got lost. Now I know you got it. Still don't now what you or anyone else thinks of it.

[tth2]

Now I know you got it. Still don't now what you or anyone else thinks of it.

Personally speaking, I don`t consider the Stan Lee file copies to be a pedigree. They`re a collection with an important historical provenance, nothing more and nothing less. They are neither complete enough nor of high enough grade to merit pedigree designation. Therefore in my opinion I think the Lee books are irrelevant in supporting your point, and establish no precedent of any kind when talking about pedigrees.

[tth2]

(and I don`t agree with Adamstrange that the D books aren`t pedigree-worthy)

 

I have not made this broad of a statement nor do I think that it is implied in what I wrote. I did say that many of the books in the Crippen collection are not of pedigree quality, as the original defintion of the word was understood in the hobby.

 

I do not think that there is a single definition of pedigree that is widely accepted any more so I tried to provide a bit more background in my prior post. In a different thread you have posted that you are not entirely comfortable with what CGC seems to define as a pedigree. But I suspect that a little more careful defining of terms would show that you and I are not quite so far apart as you are suggesting.

 

Just to be clear, I think that any OO collection of GA books that is as big and complete as the Crippen collection, with what appears to be an average structural grade of 8.5-9.0, deserves pedigree status. That they don`t have the same level of preservation as the MH or SF books is probably primarily due to being stored in hot and humid Washington DC pre-airconditioning. I think the fact that the books are preserved as well as they are, in light of the less than ideal climatic conditions (since I know DC weather very well), is actually more remarkable than books from Colorado or Nevada being really white and fresh.

[adamstrange]

(and I don`t agree with Adamstrange that the D books aren`t pedigree-worthy)

 

I have not made this broad of a statement nor do I think that it is implied in what I wrote. I did say that many of the books in the Crippen collection are not of pedigree quality, as the original defintion of the word was understood in the hobby.

 

I do not think that there is a single definition of pedigree that is widely accepted any more so I tried to provide a bit more background in my prior post. In a different thread you have posted that you are not entirely comfortable with what CGC seems to define as a pedigree. But I suspect that a little more careful defining of terms would show that you and I are not quite so far apart as you are suggesting.

 

Just to be clear, I think that any OO collection of GA books that is as big and complete as the Crippen collection, with what appears to be an average structural grade of 8.5-9.0, deserves pedigree status. That they don`t have the same level of preservation as the MH or SF books is probably primarily due to being stored in hot and humid Washington DC pre-airconditioning. I think the fact that the books are preserved as well as they are, in light of the less than ideal climatic conditions (since I know DC weather very well), is actually more remarkable than books from Colorado or Nevada being really white and fresh.

 

Lon Allen has said that the collection is more an 8.0 collection. There are quite a few dogs in it, as can be seen from what they put in their weekly sales. A small number are quite exceptional from having been stored in the basement rather than the garage.

[ciorac]

I have one of those more fun books, a Top Notch 21,is there any significance to that collection?

 

Significant to me, because I found it!

 

 

Also, it led me to the Crescent City Collection. It was one in a series of large golden age collections purchased by me and several other investors over ten years ago. The More Fun Collection was by far the largest of them all, with over 2000 books.

 

If you ever want to sell that Top Notch, I'm your guy.

 

[tth2]

Just to be clear, I think that any OO collection of GA books that is as big and complete as the Crippen collection, with what appears to be an average structural grade of 8.5-9.0, deserves pedigree status. That they don`t have the same level of preservation as the MH or SF books is probably primarily due to being stored in hot and humid Washington DC pre-airconditioning. I think the fact that the books are preserved as well as they are, in light of the less than ideal climatic conditions (since I know DC weather very well), is actually more remarkable than books from Colorado or Nevada being really white and fresh.

 

Lon Allen has said that the collection is more an 8.0 collection. There are quite a few dogs in it, as can be seen from what they put in their weekly sales.

Good point. I tend to focus on the books I see in the Signature auctions.

 

A small number are quite exceptional from having been stored in the basement rather than the garage.

I guess the other big difference is that Davis Crippen was a kid, and treated his books accordingly, while Edgar Church was an adult and treated his books much better. Similarly, I understand the Reilly books purchased by Tom's parents and then left untouched in his room are of much higher quality than the books purchased by Tom (who would've been a teenager) himself, who probably actually read the darn things.

[bluechip]

[quoteSignificant to me, because I found it!

 

 

 

 

A very honest assessment of what constitutes a pedigree collecton.

 

The attitude seems to be -- if you found them it's a collection.

 

But if I found them it's a pedigreee.

 

 

That's human nature, I guess.

 

But when you're got third party grading and a market where multiples of value get assigned to anything that gets designated a pedigree, there should be more care taken and there should be less examples one can point to where it seems the following has occured.

 

People increasingly say they feel the pedigree designation seems inconsistently applied except for the fact that if favors the same people who found pedigrees before and/or submit large numbers of the books for pro-grading

 

AND

 

People increasingly say they feel some of those pedigrees are subjected to much more lax standards.

 

AND

 

things that are called restoration on other books seem much less likely to be called restoration on books that get pedigree status.

 

AND

 

(add your own observations here)

[ciorac]

[quoteSignificant to me, because I found it!

 

 

 

 

A very honest assessment of what constitutes a pedigree collecton.

 

The attitude seems to be -- if you found them it's a collection.

 

But if I found them it's a pedigreee.

 

 

That's human nature, I guess.

 

But when you're got third party grading and a market where multiples of value get assigned to anything that gets designated a pedigree, there should be more care taken and there should be less examples one can point to where it seems the following has occured.

 

People increasingly say they feel the pedigree designation seems inconsistently applied except for the fact that if favors the same people who found pedigrees before and/or submit large numbers of the books for pro-grading

 

AND

 

People increasingly say they feel some of those pedigrees are subjected to much more lax standards.

 

AND

 

things that are called restoration on other books seem much less likely to be called restoration on books that get pedigree status.

 

AND

 

(add your own observations here)

 

That is why we called it the More Fun Collection not a pedigree. Because it was an assembled collection by a long-time collector of golden age.

 

Very few of the "pedigrees" uncovered in recent years do I even acknowledge as pedigrees. Not that my opinion matters one whit to the marketplace, I just choose not to pay multiples for every collection found that gets a mythical pedigree connotation.

[lou_fine]

Every so often I find myself doing one of these cartoon-inspired head wags (the kind usually accompanied by bizare sound effects) when I see something go for an absurdly high or absurdly low amount of money for some apparent reason that defies the logic (so called) that runs the rest of the hobby.

 

This is not to disparage anybody who bought or sold said books, but I can't help but wondering about the logic behhind some of the choices to buy or to sell) at that price.

 

It is far from the best example, but I couldn't help wondering why the Mile High copy of Science Comics #1 went for between 5 and 10 times guide (depending on how you grade it), even though it has a detached cover and centerfold -- which makes it a fair in some eyes and no better than a good in others.

 

Here's where I do the head wag. If the point of Mile High books is that they are in exceptional condition -- sometimes the best known copy, then why does one sell for typical Mile High multiples of guide even though it is not among those in super condition?

 

I have seen this with other pedigree books (and so-called pedigrees) where a book sells for multiples not because it's in great shape but because -- apparently -- it was found in proximity to books in great shape.

 

 

Bluechip;

 

Very interesting perspective here by you, but one which I am going to have to strongly disagree with, as have many of the other posters here have already done.

 

I feel that this is a more than reasonable price based upon the following factors:

 

1) Science Comics #1 is a very rare book to come across in decent shape as evident by the fact that the highest graded copy according to Heritage is only in F+ condition.

 

2) Although this book sold at at just over 6X condition guide, a closer examination of the actual image would indicate that except only for the detached cover and centerfold, this book would have clearly graded substantially higher and possibly even in the HG range.

 

3) If graded by CGC as is, would this book have been graded higher than GD and simply been slabbed with a green Qualified label for the detached cover and centerfold? Must admit here that I do not know how the green label system works.

 

4) If the cover and centerfold was professionally reattached, based upon recent statements, would not be surprised if CGC would still consider the book to be unrestored and slabbed it with a HG blue label.

 

5) Coming out from the most famous pedigree in the hobby must still count for something, should it not?

 

6) Simply another classic cover image by Lou Fine resulting in a high demand book.

 

I believe that any one of the above factors alone would justified paying above GD condition guide for this book. I could also see a combination of the above factors making it more than worthwhile to pay the so-call "head-wagging" price of $2,600 for this book. Especially considering that this type of book normally sells for a premium to guide in all grades across the board. To me, this is a very strong indication of the true collectibility of a book.

 

Actually, I would feel more comfortable paying $2,600 for this book than some of the "CGC highest graded" post-GA books that sold for 10X to 30X top condiction guide. To me, those are totally "head-wagging" prices since the price is based on condition only, which can be so transitory in nature as another higher graded copy could show up at any point in time.

 

Especially considering that these types of post GA books are so common that only the top 2 or 3 graded copies normally sell for crazy premiums, while all other copies can only sell at a discount to guide. To me, this is a misleading indication as to the true collectibility of a book as we get hypnotized by the dazzling headline grabbing multiples when over 90% of the other copies wouldn't even reach close to guide.

 

Just my two cents worth!

[Shield]

The fact that the "D" Crippen collection consisted of over 12,000 comics from 1939 to 1954 is an AMAZING feet all on its own.

 

I used to date a dark haired girl with amazing feet....

[The Black Hand ®]

[quoteSignificant to me, because I found it!

 

 

 

 

A very honest assessment of what constitutes a pedigree collecton.

 

The attitude seems to be -- if you found them it's a collection.

 

But if I found them it's a pedigreee.

 

 

That's human nature, I guess.

 

But when you're got third party grading and a market where multiples of value get assigned to anything that gets designated a pedigree, there should be more care taken and there should be less examples one can point to where it seems the following has occured.

 

People increasingly say they feel the pedigree designation seems inconsistently applied except for the fact that if favors the same people who found pedigrees before and/or submit large numbers of the books for pro-grading

 

AND

 

People increasingly say they feel some of those pedigrees are subjected to much more lax standards.

 

AND

 

things that are called restoration on other books seem much less likely to be called restoration on books that get pedigree status.

 

AND

 

(add your own observations here)

 

That is why we called it the More Fun Collection not a pedigree. Because it was an assembled collection by a long-time collector of golden age.

 

Very few of the "pedigrees" uncovered in recent years do I even acknowledge as pedigrees. Not that my opinion matters one whit to the marketplace, I just choose not to pay multiples for every collection found that gets a mythical pedigree connotation.

 

 

I think this is because you're an honest and ethical collector/dealer. I find that admirable, especially in a world where those with the power write the history and whoever yells loudest, wins the argument. There's a lot of funny business going on with slabbing and pedigree status and books reaching their potential. It's nice to hear from people like you who have been there and done that, yet still feel passionate about comics.

[Aman619]

hasnt anyone just concluded that the buyer overpaid? The assumption has been to explain the price as rational, and to look for a reason. IMO, the buyer just wanted the book and had their own list of priorities... Maybe he's been looking for a copy for a while and while it has its issues, its a Church copy and down the road, buyer figured he finally got a copy, and its a special copy that has enough cachet for resale someday. Maybe he just got carried away!

[action1kid]

quote//

whoever yells loudest, wins the argument

Isnt that human nature? I find people focus in more on how emotionally you speak more than the content of whats being said.