WTF?? The book sold for HOW MUCH?

[bluechip]

Every so often I find myself doing one of these cartoon-inspired head wags (the kind usually accompanied by bizare sound effects) when I see something go for an absurdly high or absurdly low amount of money for some apparent reason that defies the logic (so called) that runs the rest of the hobby.

 

This is not to disparage anybody who bought or sold said books, but I can't help but wondering about the logic behhind some of the choices to buy or to sell) at that price.

 

It is far from the best example, but I couldn't help wondering why the Mile High copy of Science Comics #1 went for between 5 and 10 times guide (depending on how you grade it), even though it has a detached cover and centerfold -- which makes it a fair in some eyes and no better than a good in others.

 

Here's where I do the head wag. If the point of Mile High books is that they are in exceptional condition -- sometimes the best known copy, then why does one sell for typical Mile High multiples of guide even though it is not among those in super condition?

 

I have seen this with other pedigree books (and so-called pedigrees) where a book sells for multiples not because it's in great shape but because -- apparently -- it was found in proximity to books in great shape.

 

[dgillock]

I absolutely get your point, but don't you think that at this point the importance of the Church collection to the hobby has transcended the "simple" matter of condition?

[adamstrange]

The defects on that copy do not interfere with the appreciation of the cover art by Lou Fine. Tough book to find, best colors on the planet, classic cover = record sale price for the grade.

 

Different people tolerate different defects. The guy that bought this book probably wonders why people obsess over attached covers with faded colors.

[bluechip]

I absolutely get your point, but don't you think that at this point the importance of the Church collection to the hobby has transcended the "simple" matter of condition?

 

While I'm not looking to make a trhread about this book or even the Church collectiion, I can't help but note that the Church collection achieved its status based entirely on the condition of the books. If, as Adam Strange points out, it's because the book is still really decent and nice despite the flaws, then the book's sale makes sense. But that sale even rhen would point out an interesting contradiction in the focus on covers being attached vereus unattched, when a cover that looks near mint yet is unattached ends up being graded much ;opwerthan a cover that looks far worse yet has attached covers.

[bluechip]

I am looking for other examples of book sales that boggle your mind.

 

Have you seen two nearly identicial copies of a book sell for wildly different amounts?

 

have you seen a highly desirable book sell for much less (or more) than fair market value?

 

have you seen a book generally little desireed book go for huge money?

[adamstrange]

I absolutely get your point, but don't you think that at this point the importance of the Church collection to the hobby has transcended the "simple" matter of condition?

 

While I'm not looking to make a trhread about this book or even the Church collectiion, I can't help but note that the Church collection achieved its status based entirely on the condition of the books. If, as Adam Strange points out, it's because the book is still really decent and nice despite the flaws, then the book's sale makes sense. But that sale even rhen would point out an interesting contradiction in the focus on covers being attached vereus unattched, when a cover that looks near mint yet is unattached ends up being graded much ;opwerthan a cover that looks far worse yet has attached covers.

 

I know a collector or two of the type that would go after this book and they are usually very aware of grades, they just don't let it interfere with their buying habits.

 

In order to achieve a uniform grading system you have to have uniformity within the collecting community. I have defects I'll tolerate and defects I won't. Put two books up for auction that are accurately graded the same but with one having a defect I hate and I probably won't bid on it at all and just bid on the one I like.

[Thegoldenage]

Every so often I find myself doing one of these cartoon-inspired head wags (the kind usually accompanied by bizare sound effects) when I see something go for an absurdly high or absurdly low amount of money for some apparent reason that defies the logic (so called) that runs the rest of the hobby.

 

This is not to disparage anybody who bought or sold said books, but I can't help but wondering about the logic behhind some of the choices to buy or to sell) at that price.

 

It is far from the best example, but I couldn't help wondering why the Mile High copy of Science Comics #1 went for between 5 and 10 times guide (depending on how you grade it), even though it has a detached cover and centerfold -- which makes it a fair in some eyes and no better than a good in others.

 

Here's where I do the head wag. If the point of Mile High books is that they are in exceptional condition -- sometimes the best known copy, then why does one sell for typical Mile High multiples of guide even though it is not among those in super condition?

 

I have seen this with other pedigree books (and so-called pedigrees) where a book sells for multiples not because it's in great shape but because -- apparently -- it was found in proximity to books in great shape.

 

But it is the MILE HIGH! Isn't that all that matters?

[bluechip]

Every so often I find myself doing one of these cartoon-inspired head wags (the kind usually accompanied by bizare sound effects) when I see something go for an absurdly high or absurdly low amount of money for some apparent reason that defies the logic (so called) that runs the rest of the hobby.

 

This is not to disparage anybody who bought or sold said books, but I can't help but wondering about the logic behhind some of the choices to buy or to sell) at that price.

 

It is far from the best example, but I couldn't help wondering why the Mile High copy of Science Comics #1 went for between 5 and 10 times guide (depending on how you grade it), even though it has a detached cover and centerfold -- which makes it a fair in some eyes and no better than a good in others.

 

Here's where I do the head wag. If the point of Mile High books is that they are in exceptional condition -- sometimes the best known copy, then why does one sell for typical Mile High multiples of guide even though it is not among those in super condition?

 

I have seen this with other pedigree books (and so-called pedigrees) where a book sells for multiples not because it's in great shape but because -- apparently -- it was found in proximity to books in great shape.

 

But it is the MILE HIGH! Isn't that all that matters?

 

 

And what is a MILE HIGH. It's supposed to be a book in GREAT CONDITION. That's the WHOLE POINT of a Mile high.

 

I just find it interesting that pedigree books which are designated as pedigree collections suecpfically because they're in great condition still get the pedigree designation when they're not. Same occured with copies of the "Davis Crippen" collection even when the books were graded poor. The whole reason for calling it a pedigree in the first place was that they were supposedly in great condition.

 

Copntrast that with the Stan Lee copies,. which were not designated a special collectioon because of their condition but because they were owned by Lee. Yet, CGC decided that for books below a certain condition they simply would not consider it a Stan Lee book. Meaning, I suppose that if it's in less than VG condition Lee didn't actually own it. And it bears repeating that condition was not the reason they were supposed to be special books in the first place.

 

Yet, if it's a Mile High or a Davis Crippen book (both collections that became "pedigrees" because and only because of how nice the books were) -THOSE books carry the Church pedigree and the Davis Crippen pedigree even if they are in POOR condtion.

 

That makes sense how?

[FFB]

Every so often I find myself doing one of these cartoon-inspired head wags (the kind usually accompanied by bizare sound effects) when I see something go for an absurdly high or absurdly low amount of money for some apparent reason that defies the logic (so called) that runs the rest of the hobby.

 

This is not to disparage anybody who bought or sold said books, but I can't help but wondering about the logic behhind some of the choices to buy or to sell) at that price.

 

It is far from the best example, but I couldn't help wondering why the Mile High copy of Science Comics #1 went for between 5 and 10 times guide (depending on how you grade it), even though it has a detached cover and centerfold -- which makes it a fair in some eyes and no better than a good in others.

 

Here's where I do the head wag. If the point of Mile High books is that they are in exceptional condition -- sometimes the best known copy, then why does one sell for typical Mile High multiples of guide even though it is not among those in super condition?

 

I have seen this with other pedigree books (and so-called pedigrees) where a book sells for multiples not because it's in great shape but because -- apparently -- it was found in proximity to books in great shape.

 

But it is the MILE HIGH! Isn't that all that matters?

 

 

And what is a MILE HIGH. It's supposed to be a book in GREAT CONDITION. That's the WHOLE POINT of a Mile high.

 

I just find it interesting that pedigree books which are designated as pedigree collections suecpfically because they're in great condition still get the pedigree designation when they're not. Same occured with copies of the "Davis Crippen" collection even when the books were graded poor. The whole reason for calling it a pedigree in the first place was that they were supposedly in great condition.

 

Copntrast that with the Stan Lee copies,. which were not designated a special collectioon because of their condition but because they were owned by Lee. Yet, CGC decided that for books below a certain condition they simply would not consider it a Stan Lee book. Meaning, I suppose that if it's in less than VG condition Lee didn't actually own it. And it bears repeating that condition was not the reason they were supposed to be special books in the first place.

 

Yet, if it's a Mile High or a Davis Crippen book (both collections that became "pedigrees" because and only because of how nice the books were) -THOSE books carry the Church pedigree and the Davis Crippen pedigree even if they are in POOR condtion.

 

That makes sense how?

 

I don't know about all of the books, but for some of the Stan Lee books, that's inaccurate. The Stan Lee copy of Fantastic Four #5 is a RESTORED 0.5 PR. That's as bad as it gets.

[adamstrange]

Every so often I find myself doing one of these cartoon-inspired head wags (the kind usually accompanied by bizare sound effects) when I see something go for an absurdly high or absurdly low amount of money for some apparent reason that defies the logic (so called) that runs the rest of the hobby.

 

This is not to disparage anybody who bought or sold said books, but I can't help but wondering about the logic behhind some of the choices to buy or to sell) at that price.

 

It is far from the best example, but I couldn't help wondering why the Mile High copy of Science Comics #1 went for between 5 and 10 times guide (depending on how you grade it), even though it has a detached cover and centerfold -- which makes it a fair in some eyes and no better than a good in others.

 

Here's where I do the head wag. If the point of Mile High books is that they are in exceptional condition -- sometimes the best known copy, then why does one sell for typical Mile High multiples of guide even though it is not among those in super condition?

 

I have seen this with other pedigree books (and so-called pedigrees) where a book sells for multiples not because it's in great shape but because -- apparently -- it was found in proximity to books in great shape.

 

But it is the MILE HIGH! Isn't that all that matters?

 

 

And what is a MILE HIGH. It's supposed to be a book in GREAT CONDITION. That's the WHOLE POINT of a Mile high.

 

I just find it interesting that pedigree books which are designated as pedigree collections suecpfically because they're in great condition still get the pedigree designation when they're not. Same occured with copies of the "Davis Crippen" collection even when the books were graded poor. The whole reason for calling it a pedigree in the first place was that they were supposedly in great condition.

 

Copntrast that with the Stan Lee copies,. which were not designated a special collectioon because of their condition but because they were owned by Lee. Yet, CGC decided that for books below a certain condition they simply would not consider it a Stan Lee book. Meaning, I suppose that if it's in less than VG condition Lee didn't actually own it. And it bears repeating that condition was not the reason they were supposed to be special books in the first place.

 

Yet, if it's a Mile High or a Davis Crippen book (both collections that became "pedigrees" because and only because of how nice the books were) -THOSE books carry the Church pedigree and the Davis Crippen pedigree even if they are in POOR condtion.

 

That makes sense how?

 

I'm not a fan of calling average or nice collections "pedigrees". Nor do I think that all copies of a pedigree collection are "pedigree" quality.

 

The Science 1 is a case of the quality of preservation of the cover and pages (unattached though they are) is superior in all probability to every other copy in existence. Its structural defects may be significant but they are not that disruptive to the eye. Someone who wants to get a sense of what the comic looked like coming off the presses will find that copy much closer to that than any other copy. Some people will pay a silly premium for it. Others will think them silly. Just be thankful they aren't paying silly prices for the books you want.

[markseifert]

don't you think that at this point the importance of the Church collection to the hobby has transcended the "simple" matter of condition?

 

I agree with this. For those of us who came up in the hobby hearing and reading about this incredible collection, owning books from it has that extra magic even apart from condition.

[bluechip]

[quote.

I'm not a fan of calling average or nice collections "pedigrees". Nor do I think that all copies of a pedigree collection are "pedigree" quality.

 

The Science 1 is a case of the quality of preservation of the cover and pages (unattached though they are) is superior in all probability to every other copy in existence. Its structural defects may be significant but they are not that disruptive to the eye. Someone who wants to get a sense of what the comic looked like coming off the presses will find that copy much closer to that than any other copy. Some people will pay a silly premium for it. Others will think them silly. Just be thankful they aren't paying silly prices for the books you want.

 

Okay, I had not intended this to be about the Science 1 or Mile Highs or about inconsistency in pedigrees, but my first example led us down that road, so I will stay on it just a bit...

 

 

If the Science 1 truly is of exceptional just about near mint quality in every way except that it's detached at cover and centerfold, then it should be graded as better than a good.

 

 

As for pedigrees -- they should be designated based on whether the book came from a source that would make somebody more likely to want to know where it came from. If people want a church book because of paper quality etc despite actual condition then it's worth noting. I think it very strange however that a grading sevice would take the position via labelling standards that nobody cares or should care whether a book came from Stan Lee's collection unless itt's a VG or better, but that people care, or should care, that a book came from the coplleciton Davis Crippen (that other household name) evne if the book is a poor.

 

Here are a couple scans. One is of a book once owned by Davis Crippen that is poor, yet still lablled as a pedigree.

 

 

 

 

Another book -- shown below -- was once owned by Stan Lee but it's not noted as such because it's graded fair-good. Even though CGC didn't question that it was owned by Lee, they decided at one point to make it policy not to label any Lee-owned books as owned by Lee unless they were also in at least VG condition.

 

Here is a copy of Silver Surfer #1 once owned by Lee

 

 

 

 

 

(unlike the earlier issues of silver age Marvels, Lee saved a number of copes of this issue, and all of them were consigned to Heritage, which guarantees they're from Lee. But, they explained, CGC insisted that the issues graded better than VG will have Lee's name on them but the ones below VG do not, because CGC wouldn't put his name on lower grade copies)

 

Yet they DO leave on the names of people like Davis Crippen, even if the book is poor, as in the Tec 28 above.

 

I don't understand that.

 

Of couse I also don't understand why the Surfer book graded only a fair-good.

 

It's espeeiclaly confusing If you look at the Surfer scan, and then compare it with another CGC graded book which I've posted below.

 

The book below got a 6.0 even though it looks worse than the lee book that got a 1.5

 

 

 

Interstingly, the 6.0 is yet another "Crippen" book. I bought it expecting it to look pretty decent (hey, it's got a grade thatis numerically FOUR TIMES that of the Surfer shown above) Why, it got such a grade I can't tell you.

 

The book has numerous wrinkles on all side of the books. (those are the lines you see on the sides. And they look worse in person than in the scan). The Lee book appears better, and was owned by somebody far more well-known than Crippen. Yet the book grades out worse AND Lee's name is left off the book.

 

I think any reasonable person can tell you there are signs of inconsistences here. And I think it's because some less than perfectly rational thinking has gone on regarding pedigreed books.

 

[RareHighGrade]

The Science 1 is a case of the quality of preservation of the cover and pages (unattached though they are) is superior in all probability to every other copy in existence. Its structural defects may be significant but they are not that disruptive to the eye. Someone who wants to get a sense of what the comic looked like coming off the presses will find that copy much closer to that than any other copy. Some people will pay a silly premium for it. Others will think them silly. Just be thankful they aren't paying silly prices for the books you want.

 

Adam has hit the nail on the head with his response. In addition, the book was graded as low as it was almost entirely because of the detached cover and centerfold. If those are reattached, the book will grade at least a fine. From what I understand about CGC's grading standards, it is possible that the cover and centerfold could be reattached with a procedure that CGC does not consider "restoration," and the book could then get a blue label as a 6.0 or better. A Church 6.0 (or higher) with those incredibly rich colors and white pages would be worth more than the amount that the book just sold for.

[bluechip]

[

 

I don't know about all of the books, but for some of the Stan Lee books, that's inaccurate. The Stan Lee copy of Fantastic Four #5 is a RESTORED 0.5 PR. That's as bad as it gets.

 

You are correct. The first batch of Lee books included some low low grades which had Lee's name on the label. CGC changed the standards mid-stream -- meaming that SOME low grade books slabbed early on still had Lee's name on them while other low grade books slabbed a short time later did not. Of course, that only served to magnify the inconsistency even more.

 

(you got some low grade lee books with his name, and you got a lot more low grade Lee books with his name off. And you also have low grade Davis Crippen books -- even INCOMPLETE books -- with Crippen's name on them)

 

That's totally FUBAR.

[bluechip]

[From what I understand about CGC's grading standards, it is possible that the cover and centerfold could be reattached with a procedure that CGC does not consider "restoration,"

 

I would not disagree with the notion that perhaps it should be considered unrestored, but from what I've seen on these boards, there are people who would scream bloody murder and insist you call it restoration if you so much as slipped a loose cover back on a book after the two became separated -- let alone having it professionally reattached.

[Timely]

It would be unfair to find low grade copies found in pedigree collections and then ask why they are pedigrees! You have to take the collection as a whole. The fact that the "D" Crippen collection consisted of over 12,000 comics from 1939 to 1954 is an AMAZING feet all on its own. Sure some of the books are mid and lower grade but they are part of the collection as a whole, and as a whole collection you cannot "de-pedigree" singular books based on it's own specific condition. If every "D" Crippen was low grade then that wound be a different matter. The fact is that this collection has full runs of most GA titles and may of the books are the highest graded copies and sometimes the only graded copies!

 

As far as low grade MH/Edgar Church books, even those books exhibit the characteristics of their technically flawless counterparts. They have fresh supple pages, high ink reflectivity and strong deep colors.

 

West

[ciorac]

It would be unfair to find low grade copies found in pedigree collections and then ask why they are pedigrees! You have to take the collection as a whole. The fact that the "D" Crippen collection consisted of over 12,000 comics from 1939 to 1954 is an AMAZING feet all on its own. Sure some of the books are mid and lower grade but they are part of the collection as a whole, and as a whole collection you cannot "de-pedigree" singular books based on it's own specific condition. If every "D" Crippen was low grade then that wound be a different matter. The fact is that this collection has full runs of most GA titles and may of the books are the highest graded copies and sometimes the only graded copies!

 

As far as low grade MH/Edgar Church books, even those books exhibit the characteristics of their technically flawless counterparts. They have fresh supple pages, high ink reflectivity and strong deep colors.

 

West

 

I agree with West on this one. Most very large pedigrees have some lower grade children, but they are still children and shouldn't be disowned.

 

But West, what about the WF 40? That looks to be a 4.0, yet it is slabbed a 6.0.

[bluechip]

 

I agree with West on this one. Most very large pedigrees have some lower grade children, but they are still children and shouldn't be disowned.

 

.

 

I do not disagree with that. I just find it incredibly odd that the one collection I have seen in which CGC applies a different standard and DOES exclude books based on condition are the ones from Lee's collection -- which is also the one collection I can find that was NOT BASED ON CONDITION in the first place.

[rjpb]

I don't know anyone that would consider that Science #1 a Fair. My guess is that CGC would give it at least a 3.0, even without the pedigree. I once owned a non-pedigree non-key Timely that looked like at least a 6.0, but had the cover and first 3 wraps neatly detached, that CGC had given a 2.5. I sold it for nearly 4.0 guide.

 

I don't know what the normal multiples are for Science #1, or even if there are any, and while the Church pedigree certainly adds to the appeal of this particular copy, I could see it selling for at least FN value without it. Anyone who thinks a book with NM eye-appeal, but a detached cover is going to sell for as little as a well-worn, but completely attached GD copy is delusional. Even if the book isn't Golden Age.

 

 

I've seen CGC 7.0s with faded covers or major foxing that I would find less appealing than that Science #1.

[adamstrange]

It would be unfair to find low grade copies found in pedigree collections and then ask why they are pedigrees! You have to take the collection as a whole. The fact that the "D" Crippen collection consisted of over 12,000 comics from 1939 to 1954 is an AMAZING feet all on its own. Sure some of the books are mid and lower grade but they are part of the collection as a whole, and as a whole collection you cannot "de-pedigree" singular books based on it's own specific condition. If every "D" Crippen was low grade then that wound be a different matter. The fact is that this collection has full runs of most GA titles and may of the books are the highest graded copies and sometimes the only graded copies!

 

As far as low grade MH/Edgar Church books, even those books exhibit the characteristics of their technically flawless counterparts. They have fresh supple pages, high ink reflectivity and strong deep colors.

 

West

 

I didn't say to "de-pedigree" books, just that the Crippen collection and several others contain books that are not of pedigree quality. The major reason that the pedigree designation started to come into use was to indicate that the more subjective aspects of a comic (e.g. page quality, cover colors, and state of preservation) existed to a degree that was uncommonly high and that the collection had a set of important comics in high grade.

 

In the case of the Church copies, those appear to have a uniformly high state of preservation even when the copy has structural defects. Were their exceptions to this when the collection was first found? Have some of the books been stored in appropriately since then? I would say the answer to both is yes, but I suspect that this is quite a tiny percentage.

 

In the case of the Crippen books, the majority of the books do not appear to have page quality, cover colors, and state of preservation that is a higher degree than is typically found. Nor is it like a File Copy set where the structural qualities are uniformly high. So if you are buying a Crippen with the express thought that it will have these more subjective qualities you would be best off taking a close look at the copy in question.

 

The fact that the collection contains many of the highest graded copies is partly due to the fact that many issues are being slabbed only because the books are being sold through Heritage and they are issues that have few if any slabbed copies due to overall lack of interest in the title/issue I am aware that there are many Crippen books that are particularly outstanding and are the highest graded copy even in cases where this is demand and many issues have been slabbed.

 

The point that I was not making so clearly last night (sorry, it's been a long week), is that the definition of pedigree, as it is sometimes or commonly used today, is elastic enough that it provides little guidance to the specific qualities of a particular comic book from a collection. Even simpler, buy the book not the label.