Larson Marvel Mystery Comics #9

[The Black Hand ®]

People can buy whatever they want. I just want to know what I'm buying. I want full disclosure. I don't want to end up with a bunch of restored books that I can't sell for what I paid. I don't want to be put in a position where I have to defend deceptive practices because I'm sitting on a load of tinkered with books whose work wasn't disclosed. I want the greed out and the fun back in. That's all. Not too much to ask.

[batman_fan]

People can buy whatever they want. I just want to know what I'm buying. I want full disclosure. I don't want to end up with a bunch of restored books that I can't sell for what I paid. I don't want to be put in a position where I have to defend deceptive practices because I'm sitting on a load of tinkered with books whose work wasn't disclosed. I want the greed out and the fun back in. That's all. Not too much to ask.

 

another well stated reply

[JiveTurkeyMoFo]

People can buy whatever they want. I just want to know what I'm buying. I want full disclosure. I don't want to end up with a bunch of restored books that I can't sell for what I paid. I don't want to be put in a position where I have to defend deceptive practices because I'm sitting on a load of tinkered with books whose work wasn't disclosed. I want the greed out and the fun back in. That's all. Not too much to ask.

 

Please see the Comiclink auction thread for a conversation regarding the Subby # 10 CGC 9.0 that was recently sold.

 

I think what some people just don't get is that this is a small hobby when it comes to potential buyers (especially of Golden Age books of $1k or more).

 

When a portion of those buyers refuse to buy books that they can verify have been manipulated, the pool shrinks and the owner has fewer chances in the future to sell his books for maximum gain.

 

And when that happens, the hobby gets hurt.

[The Black Hand ®]

People can buy whatever they want. I just want to know what I'm buying. I want full disclosure. I don't want to end up with a bunch of restored books that I can't sell for what I paid. I don't want to be put in a position where I have to defend deceptive practices because I'm sitting on a load of tinkered with books whose work wasn't disclosed. I want the greed out and the fun back in. That's all. Not too much to ask.

 

Please see the Comiclink auction thread for a conversation regarding the Subby # 10 CGC 9.0 that was recently sold.

 

I think what some people just don't get is that this is a small hobby when it comes to potential buyers (especially of Golden Age books of $1k or more).

 

When a portion of those buyers refuse to buy books that they can verify have been manipulated, the pool shrinks and the owner has fewer chances in the future to sell his books for maximum gain.

 

And when that happens, the hobby gets hurt.

 

Which may explain why some people "Protest too much"

when someone points out a tweaked and resubmitted book.

[The Black Hand ®]

People can buy whatever they want. I just want to know what I'm buying. I want full disclosure. I don't want to end up with a bunch of restored books that I can't sell for what I paid. I don't want to be put in a position where I have to defend deceptive practices because I'm sitting on a load of tinkered with books whose work wasn't disclosed. I want the greed out and the fun back in. That's all. Not too much to ask.

 

another well stated reply

 

Thank's.

[esquirecomics]

As an aside note no one should ever erase pedigree codes. It serves no logical purpose!

 

West

 

Dead on West!

 

I can't believe any of the true comic collectors at CGC who care about this hobby (which I presume is the majority if not everyone) would disagree with you, which is why you and the others can play such an important internal role in STOPPING this practice. Implement a policy that discourages such submissions. Publicize it as a stated policy - if a book is discovered to have a pedigree designation removed, especially if CGC previously slabbed it with such designation, CGC will REFUSE to regrade or reslab. We are not talking about a lot of books here. Maintain a pedigree database that can be checked. Of course, it is likely not even necessary as so many of these brazen greed-mongers who are participating in this practice want CGC to slab the pedigree designation on it so they tell you outright it is a pedigree. This is a NO-BRAINER!

 

Otherwise CGC is simply part of the problem because it knows this practice is ongoing and it allows itself to be used for laundering purposes.

 

Do people agree or disagree with me on this?

[FFB]

As an aside note no one should ever erase pedigree codes. It serves no logical purpose!

 

West

 

Dead on West!

 

I can't believe any of the true comic collectors at CGC who care about this hobby (which I presume is the majority if not everyone) would disagree with you, which is why you and the others can play such an important internal role in STOPPING this practice. Implement a policy that discourages such submissions. Publicize it as a stated policy - if a book is discovered to have a pedigree designation removed, especially if CGC previously slabbed it with such designation, CGC will REFUSE to regrade or reslab. We are not talking about a lot of books here. Maintain a pedigree database that can be checked. Of course, it is likely not even necessary as so many of these brazen greed-mongers who are participating in this practice want CGC to slab the pedigree designation on it so they tell you outright it is a pedigree. This is a NO-BRAINER!

 

Otherwise CGC is simply part of the problem because it knows this practice is ongoing and it allows itself to be used for laundering purposes.

 

Do people agree or disagree with me on this?

 

No offense, Mark, but that is a terrible idea. What CGC should do is publicize as stated policy that pedigree markings do not affect the grade at the 9.9 and below level, and thus, erasure of such markings will not help the book get a higher grade. CGC might also point out in any publicity that many collectors who collect pedigree books frown on the practice of removing pedigree designations and that removal of pedigree designations runs the risk of making such books less desirable. But it makes no sense to refuse to certify such books. That isn't going to stop the practice so long as there are people who are willing to lose the pedigree designation in favor of getting a higher numerical grade. It seems to me that most people who erase pedigree designations do not care about keeping the designations in the first place and are not concerned about getting caught in removing them.

[nearmint]

As an aside note no one should ever erase pedigree codes. It serves no logical purpose!

 

West

 

Dead on West!

 

I can't believe any of the true comic collectors at CGC who care about this hobby (which I presume is the majority if not everyone) would disagree with you, which is why you and the others can play such an important internal role in STOPPING this practice. Implement a policy that discourages such submissions. Publicize it as a stated policy - if a book is discovered to have a pedigree designation removed, especially if CGC previously slabbed it with such designation, CGC will REFUSE to regrade or reslab. We are not talking about a lot of books here. Maintain a pedigree database that can be checked. Of course, it is likely not even necessary as so many of these brazen greed-mongers who are participating in this practice want CGC to slab the pedigree designation on it so they tell you outright it is a pedigree. This is a NO-BRAINER!

 

Otherwise CGC is simply part of the problem because it knows this practice is ongoing and it allows itself to be used for laundering purposes.

 

Do people agree or disagree with me on this?

 

No offense, Mark, but that is a terrible idea. What CGC should do is publicize as stated policy that pedigree markings do not affect the grade at the 9.9 and below level, and thus, erasure of such markings will not help the book get a higher grade. CGC might also point out in any publicity that many collectors who collect pedigree books frown on the practice of removing pedigree designations and that removal of pedigree designations runs the risk of making such books less desirable. But it makes no sense to refuse to certify such books. That isn't going to stop the practice so long as there are people who are willing to lose the pedigree designation in favor of getting a higher numerical grade. It seems to me that most people who erase pedigree designations do not care about keeping the designations in the first place and are not concerned about getting caught in removing them.

 

Agreed.

[The Black Hand ®]

I'd tend to agree with you on this Mark. But I'm easy.

[Aman619]

... but these people DO want them certified to sell them, in the higher grades that they now exist in due to manipulations that included removal of recognizable Pedigree markings. So refusal to certify 'should' serve as a deterrent.

[nearmint]

Also keep in mind that this is not a wide-spread problem. We've certainly seen many examples of pedigree designations being lost on a re-sub, but in the vast majority of instances it's with pedigrees that do not have any markings to begin with.

 

Other than this MM #9, what other examples are there? Even if there are a few others, it's impractical to expect CGC to add another layer to their ceritfication process to combat it, when education would be far more effective.

[nearmint]

in the higher grades that they now exist in due to manipulations that included removal of recognizable Pedigree markings.

 

Removal of pedigree markings doesn't help raise the grade. And, the manipulations in this case are not considered resto by CGC.

[Aman619]

the removal is done in the process of improving the books to disguise the books. Many Pedigree markings are known to CGC and can be recognized in the grading process. If I were improving my books as "they" are. OI wouldnt take a chance of leaving the markings. It may be true as FFB states that CGC does not care about the improvements in grade (due to pressing etc) at all, but Id cover my tracks all the same. Wouldnt you?

[esquirecomics]

As an aside note no one should ever erase pedigree codes. It serves no logical purpose!

 

West

 

Dead on West!

 

I can't believe any of the true comic collectors at CGC who care about this hobby (which I presume is the majority if not everyone) would disagree with you, which is why you and the others can play such an important internal role in STOPPING this practice. Implement a policy that discourages such submissions. Publicize it as a stated policy - if a book is discovered to have a pedigree designation removed, especially if CGC previously slabbed it with such designation, CGC will REFUSE to regrade or reslab. We are not talking about a lot of books here. Maintain a pedigree database that can be checked. Of course, it is likely not even necessary as so many of these brazen greed-mongers who are participating in this practice want CGC to slab the pedigree designation on it so they tell you outright it is a pedigree. This is a NO-BRAINER!

 

Otherwise CGC is simply part of the problem because it knows this practice is ongoing and it allows itself to be used for laundering purposes.

 

Do people agree or disagree with me on this?

 

No offense, Mark, but that is a terrible idea. What CGC should do is publicize as stated policy that pedigree markings do not affect the grade at the 9.9 and below level, and thus, erasure of such markings will not help the book get a higher grade. CGC might also point out in any publicity that many collectors who collect pedigree books frown on the practice of removing pedigree designations and that removal of pedigree designations runs the risk of making such books less desirable. But it makes no sense to refuse to certify such books. That isn't going to stop the practice so long as there are people who are willing to lose the pedigree designation in favor of getting a higher numerical grade. It seems to me that most people who erase pedigree designations do not care about keeping the designations in the first place and are not concerned about getting caught in removing them.

 

No offense taken Scott.

 

But I would respond that the flaw in your suggestion, IMHO, is that the likely culprits who are removing the designations already know that this type of conduct does not impact the grade. I would assert they do so because they know some buyers don't like handwriting on the covers but still want the pedigree designation.

 

If CGC stops certifying these examples (and we're not talking about a lot of books here anyway), that will send the message. Where else are these manipulators going to go, PGX? They need CGC for the higher grades and presumed bump in price.

 

That said, I have no problem with CGC undertaking such a pr campaign as you suggest either. But I don't think the manipulators will care or heed it.

[nearmint]

the removal was done in the process of improving the books to disguise the books. Many Pedigree markings are known to CGC and can b erecognized in the grading process. If I were improving my books as "they" are. OI wouldnt take a chance of leaving the markings. It may be true as FFB states that CGC does not vcare about the improvements in grade (due to pressing etc) at all, but Id cover my tracks all the same. Wouldnt you?

 

But this book was still designated the Larson on the re-sub. How is that an attempt to disguise it?

[esquirecomics]

Also keep in mind that this is not a wide-spread problem. We've certainly seen many examples of pedigree designations being lost on a re-sub, but in the vast majority of instances it's with pedigrees that do not have any markings to begin with.

 

Other than this MM #9, what other examples are there? Even if there are a few others, it's impractical to expect CGC to add another layer to their ceritfication process to combat it, when education would be far more effective.

 

It doesn't add another layer to the process. How did CGC know the book was the Larson the second time around? Either the submitter provided the label or said it was, which would mean CGC would have had to confirm it. Pedigre submissions already have an additional layer built in through verification unless the label is submitted along with the resub.

 

Education is fine. I fully support it. But it is just one tool among many, and is ineffective at the moment until more wide-spread efforts are undertaken.

[FFB]

... but these people DO want them certified to sell them, in the higher grades that they now exist in due to manipulations that included removal of recognizable Pedigree markings. So refusal to certify 'should' serve as a deterrent.

 

But if the pedigree markings are removed and if the book is submitted as a non-pedigree, how will CGC know whether any particular high grade (or in this case, mid-grade) book is a pedigree? Do you expect them to compare every book (high-, mid-, or low-grade, since we've seen pedigree books at all grade levels undergo dry cleaning to remove pedigree markings) to a scan database (which may or may not exist, and if it does, is probably not complete) to determine whether a book that was submitted as a non-pedigree might be a pedigree? This is just not feasible.

 

And what about non-pedigree books where distributor codes are erased? Do those get a free pass? Why? And considering CGC's consistent stance that dry cleaning is not restoration, do you think it's fair or reasonable to ask them to refuse to certify books that have had pencil marks erased, but to continue to certify books that have been extensively restored or trimmed? Are we now assigning to dry cleaning a level of stigma exceeding that of trimming?

 

Then we get into the whole question of what is a pedigree, versus what is a collection, and do they refuse to certify books "from the collection of," in addition to refusing to certify pedigrees?

 

This is an ill conceived plan that has a zero percent chance of actually working.

[nearmint]

I would assert they do so because they know some buyers don't like handwriting on the covers but still want the pedigree designation.

 

I completely disagree. I've never met a pedigree collector that didn't want the markings. Even if there are a few, why limit your buying pool to that tiny % of collectors?

 

We joke about "isolated incidents", but I think this might be one. This was just a very misguided move.

[FFB]

I would assert they do so because they know some buyers don't like handwriting on the covers but still want the pedigree designation.

 

I completely disagree. I've never met a pedigree collector that didn't want the markings. Even if there are a few, why limit your buying pool to that tiny % of collectors?

 

Ditto.

 

We joke about "isolated incidents", but I think this might be one. This was just a very misguided move.

 

Ditto.

[Filter81]

As an aside note no one should ever erase pedigree codes. It serves no logical purpose!

 

West

 

Dead on West!

 

I can't believe any of the true comic collectors at CGC who care about this hobby (which I presume is the majority if not everyone) would disagree with you, which is why you and the others can play such an important internal role in STOPPING this practice. Implement a policy that discourages such submissions. Publicize it as a stated policy - if a book is discovered to have a pedigree designation removed, especially if CGC previously slabbed it with such designation, CGC will REFUSE to regrade or reslab. We are not talking about a lot of books here. Maintain a pedigree database that can be checked. Of course, it is likely not even necessary as so many of these brazen greed-mongers who are participating in this practice want CGC to slab the pedigree designation on it so they tell you outright it is a pedigree. This is a NO-BRAINER!

 

Otherwise CGC is simply part of the problem because it knows this practice is ongoing and it allows itself to be used for laundering purposes.

 

Do people agree or disagree with me on this?

 

Personally I don't think CGC should have to compare new submissions to a database or refuse to certify certain books. I think it would be very difficult for CGC to be able to continue to function properly if they ever had to abandon their policy of simply grading the book that is in front of them.

 

But I sure would love it if every time they found a book to be manipulated they noted "Cleaned and pressed" on the label. They can keep the label blue, just note it the same way they note all other work found on a book (glue, extra staples, tape on the interior etc) that they don't consider to be restoration. By noting the books that are cleaned and pressed, that right there should stop the people who are trying to lose the pedigree designations in order to hide the work that has been done. Because with the information right on the label, there is no longer a reason to hide anything.

 

The dealers who take part in these practices could still have books worked on and get the higher graded blue labels that they want. The buyers would then have all the information in front of them. And many pedigree designations would probably be saved as a result.

 

I also think it would promote more trust in the hobby and be very beneficial long-term. By preventing people from being deceived into buying something that they might (emphasis on might) not have otherwise bought, it could sure prevent a lot of problems from coming up down the road.

 

I wonder if this is something CGC might consider if it turned out that the majority of the hobby supported the idea? Seems like a compromise that could work for everybody...

 

Anyway thats my opinion..