Marvel #1 at Heritage -- Nov. isssue. Is Oct. a more desirable 1st printing?

[markseifert]

Can someone with computer skills (or skillz) see if the dot and the NOV. are aligned the same (orientation and distance) on all copies? If they're not, that would be pretty strong evidence that it was a hand stamp (i.e. would you run the covers through the presses twice?), and thus not a 2nd printing.

 

I tried doing that in photoshop by overlaying and aligning the black portions of the art to see if the Nov/Circle are consistent from copy to copy. But IMO there's too many visual problems (is the image warped slightly because of the slab, were different scanners used, is that corner laying perfectly flat in the slab?) to draw any conclusions.

 

It's not impossible to "sort of make it work" if you just work with that corner of the cover, but I tried to overlay the entire cover on a couple copies and found there were inconsistencies here and there throughout the cover, so it was tough to draw any conclusions IMO.

 

Maybe someone else could give it a shot and see what they think. I might try it again at some point when I have some time.

[Theagenes]

That's a good observation also, but I think I can explain it.

 

Before I came on the "registration comparison" method, I tried to match up black plates by superimposing various copies, but gave up because I found there are just too many visual unknowns (such as whether that corner is laying 100% flat inside the slab) to be sure of what we're seeing.

 

I did notice the shift in the "blue cloud" area of that corner, but I'm not sure that line is black. I think it might be very dark blue.

 

I have to admit it does look like it could be a black line on the Larson, but I don't think it is. Also looking at the Larson copy: Note that the blue shifts left compared to black on the visible area of the cover there. We can see the blue eating into the white smoke in the lower right corner.

 

Because we know that shade of blue can shift compared to black, we know it contains no black itself. It contains nothing from the black plate.

 

Since we know that that shade of blue contains no black, we have to wonder how that dark line on the cloud in question and that same shade of blue that colors the area just outside the cloud can be in perfect registration on all these copies, when we know for sure on two of them that the registation between blue and black is off significantly.

 

IMO the answer is that that line is not actual black-plate line. I'm not sure what exactly is. Some sort of very-dark-blue ink edge effect caused by creating the two shades of blue on the plate, perhaps.

 

So, obviously it's open to further debate, but I'm still of the opinion that the shift of the Nov & Circle is consistent with registration issues, and was printed by modifying the black plate.

 

Too bad somebody couldn't scan a bunch of raw copies with the same scanner at the same size. We could learn alot from that.

 

Very interesting discussion.

 

This is an interesting discussion.

 

Good point on the the blue cloud line - on the Larson it should be shifted to the right and on the 1.5 it should be shifted up, so it must not be from the black plate regardless of what it looks like.

 

OK, so I tried again, this time trying to line up the circle/nov with points on what we know must be black lines: the top of the diagonal line inside the "L" in Marvel, the top of the smaller diagonal line coming out of the smoke, and the end of the "break" in the lower line of the smoke.

 

 

Even taking into account the fact that I'm doing this by hand and could be off by a few pixels, there is a significant horizontal shift between these three points and the circle/nov on the Larson and Pay copies. The horizontal shift between the Larson and 1.5 is much slighter, but the vertical shift is significant.

[FFB]

Is it just me, or does the Pay Copy look like somebody tried to scratch off the circle?

 

Of course! They knew it would be more valuable!

 

It looks like we're pretty confident that the Nov was part of the black printing plate. Interesting but not necessarily a point in evidence for either side.

 

If we were able to get definitive evidence that they were all 1st Prints, with Oct being 1st state and Nov being 2nd state would it make a difference in the desirability to the comic world? Is there generally a large difference in price in the book world between the states?

 

Actually, it seems like what Theagenes is showing is that the November stamp and circle may not have been part of the black (K) printing plate on the first pass. The Larson copy has the circle in a different spot relative to the end of the black line that runs diagonally up to the L in "Marvel." If it were part of the original K plate, it would be equal to all other black ink on all copies of the covers, no? This suggests that November copies are just October copies (or at least copies printed with the original four CMYK October plates) that may have undergone another pass with a new K plate to add the November stamp.

 

Exactly. But, as you pointed out, the second pass with the November stamp must not have been very long after the first pass due to the pay copy being a Nov. copy.

I think it's probably fair to say we're looking at one printing with two different cover states, the Oct. being the first state.

 

Could someone with knowledge of the four color printing process explain whether it's possible to just have a second K plate as part of the print run? I wish povertyrow or DiceX would read this thread. Both are or were working in the four-color printing field and would probably be able to explain this simply. I've got a few lithographer's manuals that date to the 1940s and 1950s, but every time I read them, I feel like a third grader trying to decipher the Rosetta Stone.

[Timely]

It looks like I was right after all. Clearly the November copies have "Oct" in white under the black circle which means they were all printed at the same time. If the original cover art or print block were changed you would NEVER have white "OCT" printed underneath the black circle.

 

West

[Aman619]

I dont know printing history, but teh answer is yes. On a 5 or 6 color press, you can have 6 different inks; or, CMYK plus another K plus one more plate. You can just run the usual 4 plates on a 6-color press too, but the capability is there for more. Many colors just cannot be replicated using CMYK, so clients insist on certain reds, blues etc from Pantone or Toyo inks to achieve their colors.

 

So, if they were on a 5/6-color press (if they were commonly used then) they could have used the same CMYK plates and added another plate with just teh circle and NOV. If this wee the case, this new black plate#2 would be subject to misalignment from the other plates as usual.

[FFB]

It looks like I was right after all. Clearly the November copies have "Oct" in white under the black circle which means they were all printed at the same time. If the original cover art or print block were changed you would NEVER have white "OCT" printed underneath the black circle.

 

West

 

It doesn't mean they were printed at the same time. It just means they were printed using the same plates.

[FFB]

I dont know printing history, but teh answer is yes. On a 5 or 6 color press, you can have 6 different inks; or, CMYK plus another K plus one more plate. You can just run the usual 4 plates on a 6-color press too, but the capability is there for more. Many colors just cannot be replicated using CMYK, so clients insist on certain reds, blues etc from Pantone or Toyo inks to achieve their colors.

 

So, if they were on a 5/6-color press (if they were commonly used then) they could have used the same CMYK plates and added another plate with just teh circle and NOV. If this wee the case, this new black plate#2 would be subject to misalignment from the other plates as usual.

 

That's what I thought. Might it also explain the difference in ink weight from the black in the November stamp and the black on the rest of the cover? (In other words, the pay copy has rich, thick blacks everywhere except the November stamp. Wouldn't the blacks be uniformly weak on the entire cover if the Nov. stamp were on the same K plate as the rest of the black ink?)

[SurfingAlien]

Very interesting topic.

 

From the evidence presented, it is obvious that all copies have the Oct date on them, whether obscured by the Nov & circle or not.

 

I think it is an ironclad argument that the Oct only copies are:

 

a. The original, very first, unaltered printing, printed as the comic was originally intended to exist, whether the Nov & circle were added during the first run of the printing or later as a separate printing.

b. Rarer.

 

Everyone can take their pick as to which one is/should be worth more - i'll take October. Of course i'd take either, considering my finances! But I just don't see much to argue about the more desirable state, beyond the academics of actually knowing the historical process of what went on when it was printed (which is very interesting indeed). But the fact remains that October comes before November, and the original intention must have been for it to be dated that way - the November dating was something that occurred after the original intention to publish the comic.

 

I could see that, if the November date was rarer, it would present a value issue, much as in Stamps and Coins, where there are overprints that are rarer and more valuable than the original issue that was overprinted. But that doesn't seem to be an issue here.

 

When/if comic collecting becomes as old a field as those 2 collectibles are, I think the difference would be significant.

[Shield]

It looks like I was right after all. Clearly the November copies have "Oct" in white under the black circle which means they were all printed at the same time. If the original cover art or print block were changed you would NEVER have white "OCT" printed underneath the black circle.

 

West

 

I agree with you. Plus, considering how the black circle is all over the place, perhaps it was stamped manually or stamped completely after the fact. I guess we'll never know for sure - very interesting.

[lou_fine]

I could see that, if the November date was rarer, it would present a value issue, much as in Stamps and Coins, where there are overprints that are rarer and more valuable than the original issue that was overprinted. But that doesn't seem to be an issue here.

 

Should point out that this exact scenario does take place with the Superman #1 print runs as the 3rd print with a print run of only 150,000 clearly should be rarer than the 1st print with a print run of 500,000 copies.

 

Now, which edition of Superman #1 should be more valuable in this case?

[SurfingAlien]

True that. Only time will tell. It would depend on:

 

a. How many of each printing actually survived, rather than print run.

b. Whether the marketplace determines that 1st state trumps rarity.

 

It would be interesting to see if there were any other known multiple printing issues with rarer, later printings that were worth less than the more common original (I wonder if there are figures for any of the Classics Illustrateds original v. reprints where repints were rarer, although they are much less key issues so maybe not a good comparison - I will try to think of any comparisons in stamps/coins)

 

In the Marvel 1 case, we have Oct as the 1st state and the rarer state, so I don't think there would be any value question (except maybe condition factor - a 9.6 November may well trump an 8.0 October, if the 9.6 existed in someones vault)

 

[markseifert]

OK, so I tried again, this time trying to line up the circle/nov with points on what we know must be black lines: the top of the diagonal line inside the "L" in Marvel, the top of the smaller diagonal line coming out of the smoke, and the end of the "break" in the lower line of the smoke.

 

Nice. Excellent idea for a comparison. Based on your idea, I tried something similar myself, but I am also a little concerned about rotation of the image in the scan -- due to placement of the slab on the scanner, position of the book inside the slab, and the way the book itself was trimmed (which we know can vary a lot).

 

So what I did was draw a rectangle on the image, line one side up to that break in the smoke, and align the bottom of my rectangle to the top line of that big "hatch hinge" in the background. That way, I can compensate for any rotational issues. I have only one (vertical) point of comparison, but the result is still worthwhile:

 

 

Looking at the red line to the right, it cuts through the period in "Nov.". It is a little different on each copy, but the lines are fuzzy enough when blown up this much that I think that could be accounted for by the limits of viewing the image at this size due to lack of complete clarity of the line. (and in other words, I hope I'm not just seeing what I expected to see here!)

 

EDIT: Well, after trying to think the above through so carefully, I decided to use a similar method to also check the vertical placement as you did. I also decided to take a look at the 1.5 copy, as I had been using a 4.0 from Heritage as my third example. The 1.5 checks out fine horizontally as the others did, but I'll be darned if it isn't WAY off from where the others generally.are vertically. The others are fairly close (but not perfect) vertically when you compensate for rotation, but this 1.5 is an anomaly!

 

So... good catch. Explanations that come to mind: (1) The theory of an after-initial-printing overprint or stamp is correct, or (2) The correction to the black plate somehow itself shifted vertically (in relation to the rest of the black plate) at some point during the run, which might explain why some of my theory about the registration issues seemed to hold true for the copies I checked.

 

But obviously, unless there's something going on that we don't understand yet, you're right that this casts substantial doubt on the black-plate correction theory, unless it can be shown through examining a bunch of other copies that this 1.5 is an aberration for whatever reason.

 

****

 

Also: Is there a scan of the October Cage copy around? I see the Nov Cage is on comiclink right now, but googling around I don't see the Oct anywhere. It might be interesting to see if anything could be learned by putting a scan of that book under the microscope.

[tth2]

Also: Is there a scan of the October Cage copy around? I see the Nov Cage is on comiclink right now, but googling around I don't see the Oct anywhere. It might be interesting to see if anything could be learned by putting a scan of that book under the microscope.

If it was sold on Heritage, then there should be a scan in their archives.

[action1kid]

Metro had the Oct Cage copy for sale on there website for the longest time.

It was listed for 80k. I took a look, I see its not there now.

[sacentaur]

Metro had the Oct Cage copy for sale on there website for the longest time.

It was listed for 80k. I took a look, I see its not there now.

 

I noticed that too, but have no fear - now that we've all been properly educated about the desirability of an October copy, it may soon reappear for the incredible bargain list of $100k.

 

And you should feel privileged to get it at that price, too!

 

STEVE

[action1kid]

Its been on the website for over a year...I remeber when it was 1st listed at 50k.

[metropoliscomics]

Metro had the Oct Cage copy for sale on there website for the longest time.

It was listed for 80k. I took a look, I see its not there now.

 

I noticed that too, but have no fear - now that we've all been properly educated about the desirability of an October copy, it may soon reappear for the incredible bargain list of $100k.

 

And you should feel privileged to get it at that price, too!

 

STEVE

 

When a book is no longer listed on a website, it could mean that the book sold. And in this case, that is what it means.

 

S

[action1kid]

I was just stating what I have observed. Nothing more.

[sacentaur]

<cue Gomer Pyle accent> For shame, for shame!

 

And here I was giving the sagacious S credit for yet another shrewd marketing campaign.

 

Another balloon burst.

 

STEVE

[Theagenes]

 

When a book is no longer listed on a website, it could mean that the book sold. And in this case, that is what it means.

 

S

 

So I wonder if the purchaser happened to read this thread and if that influenced his decision.

 

If so, I think those here that argued for the Oct. version being a first state should each get a 1% commission. Particularly those that offered photographic evidence.