Marvel #1 at Heritage -- Nov. isssue. Is Oct. a more desirable 1st printing?

[bluechip]

[it just seems weird that he wouldn't have grabbed an October copy to use as a pay copy if he didn't know there was even going to be any November copy press run to use to keep his records.

 

 

He might have grabbed an October copy if he was in a hurry to pay his employees. And I am not sure about Goodmans'; rep in that department, Checks dated one month can also be written months later and often are by people who are slow to pay. .

 

 

[bluechip]

 

But here's the problem with that last scenario - you have Nov. copies that have the black circle scraped off to reveal the "OCT" underneath. How could that happen unless they were all printed as Oct. copies first, then were run through again to add the black circle and "NOV"?

 

This would mean that some or even all of the November copies were actually October copies printed at the same and then simply run through the machines again. Still makes the October copies more desireable. But it's not quite the same as if it were a whole separate, second printing.

[markseifert]

But here's the problem with that last scenario - you have Nov. copies that have the black circle scraped off to reveal the "OCT" underneath. How could that happen unless they were all printed as Oct. copies first, then were run through again to add the black circle and "NOV"?

 

I am not particularly familiar with the four color printing technology of the time, but if the general principles are at least somewhat similar to printing in more recent times, here's what could have happened:

 

The simplest, quickest, way to make the correction would have been to change the black plate only.

 

When you have a large area of black in four color printing, you normally want the area "underneath" the black to be a relatively uniform in color. Because if you don't, you will be able to see the variations in the ink underneath the black and it won't be a uniform-looking black like you probably wanted. In other words, you can tell a difference between an area that is JUST black ink by itself and an area that has black with some other ink underneath it.

 

If the ink changes under the black are abrupt, like in the case of our "Oct", you would probably be able to tell what's underneath there pretty easily. And after the inks have faded/changed for a few decades... who knows how it would look.

 

Again, I am not familiar with four color printing of the 30's, but if the technology holds some basic similarities to four color process printing of more recent times, then it is very possible that the Nov copies could have been run through the press a single time and still look like they do.

 

I've always assumed they changed the black plate and didn't bother to change the other plates to remove the underlying "Oct".

 

Aside from that, I'm somewhat sceptical that they could have been run through a press again (or some stamping equipment used) after initial printing without having the accuracy of the placement of the "Nov" coming out absolutely awful. It does vary some now due to registration issues, but I think we'd be seeing some copies that were WAY off if that was the case. And if the presses were set up to be fed paper on large rolls, that would have made the "two pass" scenario all the more unlikely.

[Aman619]

not really. If the black circle is able to be rubbed off, that is proof that they were ALL October first printings and that the NOV/CIRCLE overlay was printed ON TOP of the gloss finish of the first (and only?) OCT printing. What they had to have done was put the books back in a one color press for the black circle and NOV overprinting.

 

actually this the 'tell' that makes it obvious that we have been guessing at straws here. Because, if they changed the printing plates and went back on press, the NEW black plates would have been remade with just a NOV IN THE CIRCLE! You simply strip in a neg of the NOV in place of the OCT inside the existing circle area.

 

The only way out for a second printing to be necessary given what we are left with (surviving OCT and NOV copies) would be if someone with an OCT copy can examine the OCT to see which inks its made out of. the OCT could still appear in just the CYAN, MAG and YELLOW plates if it was made out of all 4 to begin with (not normally the case, but possible). If it were on OCT copies in all plates (CMYK) then the cheapest plan would have been to just remake the BLACK plate, and they would have used a circle and the NOV outside the circle to accomplish that. Cheaper to just remake ONE plate than all four.

 

too complicated?

[Aman619]

I think you are onto something here!

 

[FFB]

Was the compensation worked out before the books hit the stands or were the payments to the artists based on the sales result for the Oct run?

 

In any event, are the holders of the Nov copy seeing the value of their book eroded with each passing page?

 

The checks are dated July 1939 in the inscription on the cover of the pay copy. The book hit the stands mid-September, according to what I saw people saying here? I realize that they could have written the notation a couple months after the checks were written -- I am just wondering why they wouldn't have grabbed an October copy to make the payment notation, since it was apparently Jacquet's practice to do that, as he did with the Motion Picture Funnies pay copy. This could be evidence of both books coming off the presses at the same time -- because if Jacquet always used a copy as a pay copy, if he didn't know the November printing was going to be made when the October printing came out, logic dictates that he would have grabbed an October copy to use as a pay copy. The fact that he grabbed a November copy suggests that November copies and October copies may have come off of the presses at the same time...

 

OR...

 

 

wait for it...

 

 

...that the October copy is possibly a printer's error copy. What I mean is, maybe the decision to add the November stamp to the book was made before the October copies were printed, and most ended up with the black November section on the black plate. But maybe part of the run was accidentally printed without that change to the plate, or maybe there was a problem with that section of the plate and a few thousand copies came off the presses before they fixed it. Kind of like those strange printer's error copies we see every now and then where a certain section of the book doesn't print properly or at all.

 

This is, of course, all speculation. It just seems weird that he wouldn't have grabbed an October copy to use as a pay copy if he didn't know there was even going to be any November copy press run to use to keep his records.

 

But here's the problem with that last scenario - you have Nov. copies that have the black circle scraped off to reveal the "OCT" underneath. How could that happen unless they were all printed as Oct. copies first, then were run through again to add the black circle and "NOV"?

 

What does the black circle being scrapable have to do with when it was added? Are you saying that it is a different kind of ink than the rest of the black ink on the cover? I have never owned a Marvel Comics #1, so I don't have any idea about this.

[FFB]

not really. If the black circle is able to be rubbed off, that is proof that they were ALL October first printings and that the NOV/CIRCLE overlay was printed ON TOP of the gloss finish of the first (and only?) OCT printing. What they had to have done was put the books back in a one color press for the black circle and NOV overprinting.

 

actually this the 'tell' that makes it obvious that we have been guessing at straws here. Because, if they changed the printing plates and went back on press, the NEW black plates would have been remade with just a NOV IN THE CIRCLE! You simply strip in a neg of the NOV in place of the OCT inside the existing circle area.

 

The only way out for a second printing to be necessary given what we are left with (surviving OCT and NOV copies) would be if someone with an OCT copy can examine the OCT to see which inks its made out of. the OCT could still appear in just the CYAN, MAG and YELLOW plates if it was made out of all 4 to begin with (not normally the case, but possible). If it were on OCT copies in all plates (CMYK) then the cheapest plan would have been to just remake the BLACK plate, and they would have used a circle and the NOV outside the circle to accomplish that. Cheaper to just remake ONE plate than all four.

 

too complicated?

 

What gloss finish? I was under the impression that there is no actual "gloss" sprayed or applied on the cover of a comic book, and that the shiny stuff is just the polymerized ink layer (which is itself glossy) and on the white areas, the cover stock is heavily calendared with kaolinite to give the paper stock itself that glossy appearance.

[Aman619]

What does the black circle being scrapable have to do with when it was added? Are you saying that it is a different kind of ink than the rest of the black ink on the cover? I have never owned a Marvel Comics #1, so I don't have any idea about this.

 

if one layer of ink (black in this case) is "scrapable", its a pretty sure sign that it was not printed with the other inks. Take any CMYK printed "thing" and try scraping off the black ink ro reveal anything underneath....when they are all applied within moments of another its impossible to separate them later by scraping.

 

as for gloss, I am only trying to explain why the NON black circle pass would ever BE scrapable.... it COULD if it were applied on top of a dried gloss/finished surface such that the ink could no longer seep into the paper fibres as they were "sealed off" with the fours original passes of inks.

[markseifert]

Just occured to me that there is another angle of attack for this, since we have multiple nice scans at Heritage and GA books in general have registation problems.

 

If the Nov was added to the black plate and printed as part of a normal four-color press run, then the shifting of the coverage of the "Oct" by the circle should be consistent with the registation problems (of cyan/blue in particular) apparent throughout the rest of the book.

 

Also note that we can see the "." at the end of the "Oct." to the right side of the black circle on most copies. If we compare the registation shifts of black vs cyan/blue on multiple covers, we can see if the movement of the "." compared to the black circle is consistent with the registation shifts.

 

Take a look at the pay copy. It has pretty decent registation as far as the cyan/blue plate goes, as is apparent when you look at the white smoke going through the blue background in the upper right quarter of the cover. Note where the "." is in comparison with the black circle covering Oct. It is not even touching the black circle.

 

Now take a look at the Larsen copy. The cyan/blue plate is shifted significantly left compared to the black plate. Again, you can see this by looking at the white smoke. Now look at the "." at the end of Oct. It is almost covered by the black circle in this case, and when we compare to the pay copy, that shift in placement is consistent with the registation problems on the rest of this book (the Larsen).

 

The "other 9.0 copy" is also consistent with this theory. By looking at the white smoke, you will note that cyan blue is shifted UP and slightly left compared to black in this case. When you look at the "." at the end of Oct, you will note that it is just touching the black circle and is higher up on the black circle than the Larsen. And as with the Larsen, this is consistent with the registration problem of the book.

 

So at an initial glance, the placement of the Nov/Circle is consistent from book to book when you take the registation issues of the book into account.

 

Obviously, one should take a look at several more books to continue to verify this. But it would lead me to believe that the Nov/Circle was done by altering the black plate and printing the cover as part of a normal four-color run, and not by some after-printing process.

 

I'd be curious to hear what any restro expert or someone who has handled a few raw copies might have to say about whether the ink appears different there, but at this point I'm definitely leaning towards the idea that it was a black plate correction.

[Crowzilla]

The Pay Copy of Marvel #1 is a strange bird, not only is the black circle much lighter than any other copy I've seen, it's also the only copy I've seen where the black circle does not touch the "." in "Oct." Other than that copy, the black stamp is very uniform in placement on all other copies.

 

I've seen copies with lighter black circles than others (like the Pay Copy), but the black never seemed scrapable (unless you're trying to scrape all the color off to get to the white pulp of the paper).

 

I would think the uniform position of the stamp and the fact that it isn't 'scrapable" gives more credence to a theory like Mark's where the other plates remained the same to save money while the black plate was changed to add a circle and "nov". This would also help explain the various degrees of opaqueness the cricle had as at the beginning of the run there is no way to see through the circle, while those printed where black was lower in ink (or not struck as soundly) are more see-through.

[Theagenes]

markav, you've made some great observations. However, if the black circle and "NOV" were printed at the same time as the other black ink on the cover, then all you should have to do is compare the circle and "NOV" with the other black lines on the cover to see if they are in the same location with respect to each other. As you can see in the comparison below that does not seem to be the case.

 

I just picked the three most recent copies on Heritage - from left to right, Pay Copy, Larson copy, non-ped CGC 1.5:

 

 

 

 

Is it just me, or does the Pay Copy look like somebody tried to scratch off the circle?

[adamstrange]

Is it just me, or does the Pay Copy look like somebody tried to scratch off the circle?

 

Of course! They knew it would be more valuable!

 

It looks like we're pretty confident that the Nov was part of the black printing plate. Interesting but not necessarily a point in evidence for either side.

 

If we were able to get definitive evidence that they were all 1st Prints, with Oct being 1st state and Nov being 2nd state would it make a difference in the desirability to the comic world? Is there generally a large difference in price in the book world between the states?

[FFB]

Is it just me, or does the Pay Copy look like somebody tried to scratch off the circle?

 

Of course! They knew it would be more valuable!

 

It looks like we're pretty confident that the Nov was part of the black printing plate. Interesting but not necessarily a point in evidence for either side.

 

If we were able to get definitive evidence that they were all 1st Prints, with Oct being 1st state and Nov being 2nd state would it make a difference in the desirability to the comic world? Is there generally a large difference in price in the book world between the states?

 

Actually, it seems like what Theagenes is showing is that the November stamp and circle may not have been part of the black (K) printing plate on the first pass. The Larson copy has the circle in a different spot relative to the end of the black line that runs diagonally up to the L in "Marvel." If it were part of the original K plate, it would be equal to all other black ink on all copies of the covers, no? This suggests that November copies are just October copies (or at least copies printed with the original four CMYK October plates) that may have undergone another pass with a new K plate to add the November stamp.

[adamstrange]

Is it just me, or does the Pay Copy look like somebody tried to scratch off the circle?

 

Of course! They knew it would be more valuable!

 

It looks like we're pretty confident that the Nov was part of the black printing plate. Interesting but not necessarily a point in evidence for either side.

 

If we were able to get definitive evidence that they were all 1st Prints, with Oct being 1st state and Nov being 2nd state would it make a difference in the desirability to the comic world? Is there generally a large difference in price in the book world between the states?

 

Actually, it seems like what Theagenes is showing is that the November stamp and circle may not have been part of the black (K) printing plate on the first pass. The Larson copy has the circle in a different spot relative to the end of the black line that runs diagonally up to the L in "Marvel." If it were part of the original K plate, it would be equal to all other black ink on all copies of the covers, no? This suggests that November copies are just October copies (or at least copies printed with the original four CMYK October plates) that may have undergone another pass with a new K plate to add the November stamp.

 

Long day at work -- and I will admit to reading aman's post twice and still feeling like I need a tylenol.

[Theagenes]

Is it just me, or does the Pay Copy look like somebody tried to scratch off the circle?

 

Of course! They knew it would be more valuable!

 

It looks like we're pretty confident that the Nov was part of the black printing plate. Interesting but not necessarily a point in evidence for either side.

 

If we were able to get definitive evidence that they were all 1st Prints, with Oct being 1st state and Nov being 2nd state would it make a difference in the desirability to the comic world? Is there generally a large difference in price in the book world between the states?

 

Actually, it seems like what Theagenes is showing is that the November stamp and circle may not have been part of the black (K) printing plate on the first pass. The Larson copy has the circle in a different spot relative to the end of the black line that runs diagonally up to the L in "Marvel." If it were part of the original K plate, it would be equal to all other black ink on all copies of the covers, no? This suggests that November copies are just October copies (or at least copies printed with the original four CMYK October plates) that may have undergone another pass with a new K plate to add the November stamp.

 

Exactly. But, as you pointed out, the second pass with the November stamp must not have been very long after the first pass due to the pay copy being a Nov. copy.

I think it's probably fair to say we're looking at one printing with two different cover states, the Oct. being the first state.

[Theagenes]

Is it just me, or does the Pay Copy look like somebody tried to scratch off the circle?

 

Of course! They knew it would be more valuable!

 

It looks like we're pretty confident that the Nov was part of the black printing plate. Interesting but not necessarily a point in evidence for either side.

 

If we were able to get definitive evidence that they were all 1st Prints, with Oct being 1st state and Nov being 2nd state would it make a difference in the desirability to the comic world? Is there generally a large difference in price in the book world between the states?

 

The scratching comment was kind of tongue-in-cheek.

 

With the For Whom the Bells Tolls example I used above, if you had a first state DJ that was worth about $500, then a second state would be about $300. But it's difficult to translate individual prices. Scarcity comes into play; i.e. what percent of the first printing are first state? For MC #1 it appears that the percentage of Oct. copies is about 7-8% of the total print run, which is very small. I suspect that if all this information were confirmed, widely dessiminated, and understood, then Oct. copies would go up considerably in value (probably more than they should).

[showcase4]

markav, you've made some great observations. However, if the black circle and "NOV" were printed at the same time as the other black ink on the cover, then all you should have to do is compare the circle and "NOV" with the other black lines on the cover to see if they are in the same location with respect to each other. As you can see in the comparison below that does not seem to be the case.

 

I just picked the three most recent copies on Heritage - from left to right, Pay Copy, Larson copy, non-ped CGC 1.5:

 

 

 

 

Is it just me, or does the Pay Copy look like somebody tried to scratch off the circle?

 

it looks like on the Pay Copy, the black circle was faint, therefore creating a "scratch-off" look. You can see part of the blue background right though it, but not on the other 2 copies where the circle is much more prominant. I don't think they were playing the lottery scratch off game back then

[markseifert]

markav, you've made some great observations. However, if the black circle and "NOV" were printed at the same time as the other black ink on the cover, then all you should have to do is compare the circle and "NOV" with the other black lines on the cover to see if they are in the same location with respect to each other. As you can see in the comparison below that does not seem to be the case.

 

That's a good observation also, but I think I can explain it.

 

Before I came on the "registration comparison" method, I tried to match up black plates by superimposing various copies, but gave up because I found there are just too many visual unknowns (such as whether that corner is laying 100% flat inside the slab) to be sure of what we're seeing.

 

I did notice the shift in the "blue cloud" area of that corner, but I'm not sure that line is black. I think it might be very dark blue.

 

I have to admit it does look like it could be a black line on the Larson, but I don't think it is. Also looking at the Larson copy: Note that the blue shifts left compared to black on the visible area of the cover there. We can see the blue eating into the white smoke in the lower right corner.

 

Because we know that shade of blue can shift compared to black, we know it contains no black itself. It contains nothing from the black plate.

 

Since we know that that shade of blue contains no black, we have to wonder how that dark line on the cloud in question and that same shade of blue that colors the area just outside the cloud can be in perfect registration on all these copies, when we know for sure on two of them that the registation between blue and black is off significantly.

 

IMO the answer is that that line is not actual black-plate line. I'm not sure what exactly is. Some sort of very-dark-blue ink edge effect caused by creating the two shades of blue on the plate, perhaps.

 

So, obviously it's open to further debate, but I'm still of the opinion that the shift of the Nov & Circle is consistent with registration issues, and was printed by modifying the black plate.

 

Too bad somebody couldn't scan a bunch of raw copies with the same scanner at the same size. We could learn alot from that.

 

Very interesting discussion.

[bluechip]

markav, you've made some great observations. However, if the black circle and "NOV" were printed at the same time as the other black ink on the cover, then all you should have to do is compare the circle and "NOV" with the other black lines on the cover to see if they are in the same location with respect to each other. As you can see in the comparison below that does not seem to be the case.

 

I just picked the three most recent copies on Heritage - from left to right, Pay Copy, Larson copy, non-ped CGC 1.5:

 

 

 

 

Is it just me, or does the Pay Copy look like somebody tried to scratch off the circle?

 

it looks like on the Pay Copy, the black circle was faint, therefore creating a "scratch-off" look. You can see part of the blue background right though it, but not on the other 2 copies where the circle is much more prominant. I don't think they were playing the lottery scratch off game back then

 

I never expected this to get so involved, though it's one thing I like about the comics collecting. The obsession for detail and comparing past pictures makes me feel somewhat secure that out and out counterfeiting would be hard to pull of.

 

Anyway, I checked the scans I had of Marvel copies, including the beater I still have and sure enough you can easily see the "OCT" beneath the black dot.

 

If these were indeed first printed with OCT and then a black dot and NOV printed over it I would not call it a second printing but a first printing with alterations. Sort of the New York World's fair with and without the sticker. They were all printed without stickers. Somebody just added stickers later on.

 

If they literally switched out the black plates, however, that would be a 2nd print of the first edition.

 

But with printing costs being far more expensive than hired help, I think it's conceivable that Goodman found it cheaper to have people stamp the corners after the fact.

[buttock]

Can someone with computer skills (or skillz) see if the dot and the NOV. are aligned the same (orientation and distance) on all copies? If they're not, that would be pretty strong evidence that it was a hand stamp (i.e. would you run the covers through the presses twice?), and thus not a 2nd printing.

 

If they are, I'm not sure it tells us much of anything, but if they're not (and at 1st glance they appear to not be aligned) it's more $$ in the pot.