Questions for CGC and the Liason Committee

[drbanner]

Discussing who volunteers to pick up the check at forum dinners and whether or not Steve gets reimbursed is utterly classless. I have never been to one of these dinners but i certainly wouldn't feel like i was being bought off just because Steve or anyone else wants to buy me a drink.

 

I agree with your comments, and the sentiment behind them - some pretty nasty stuff here tonight. Someone needs to take another break from the boards if they can't contain their, well, I don't even really know what to call it??

[mica]

Someone needs to take another break from the boards if they can't contain their, well, I don't even really know what to call it??

"tab talk"

I agree. Discuss pedigrees; collections; Matt; and perception, but no more "check please".

[MasterChief]

Someone needs to take another break from the boards if they can't contain their, well, I don't even really know what to call it??

"tab talk"

I agree. Discuss pedigrees; collections; Matt; and perception, but no more "check please".

 

Overall, I found it to be a reasonable debate on ‘perception’ and I appreciate the essence thereof. Sure hate to see that type of dialog censured -- in any form.

[topofthetotem]

Someone needs to take another break from the boards if they can't contain their, well, I don't even really know what to call it??

"tab talk"

I agree. Discuss pedigrees; collections; Matt; and perception, but no more "check please".

 

Overall, I found it to be a reasonable ‘perception’ debate and I appreciate the essence thereof. Sure hate to see that type of dialog censured -- in any form.

I think when the debate on "perception" has potential negitive impacts on the persons livelihood it has croosed the line into idle agenda driven gossip!

[Sal]

I don't know what to say, Garth. You seem to have a completely different view of what forum dinners are all about. As far as I'm aware (and I've been to a half dozen of them), they're just a great excuse for people in the hobby to get together, eat some food, drink some booze, and spend some time together talking about comics (or other stuff). I have yet to sense any kind of sinister corporate purpose at any of them. And I know for a fact that Steve has dug into his own pocket (unreimbursed) to help defray costs for forum members (and these are forum members who don't even submit books) who couldn't afford to attend the dinner if they had to pay full price. If you want to find some ulterior motive in that, I suppose that's your right. But it's a crappy thing to do.

 

That's what I was thinking. I hope to attend one of these outings someday. Some people only assume the worst and that kind of attitude puts the entire thing on a different perspective for a lot of people who might get influenced. Ah well.

 

Look, I'm' generally a reasonably trusting person who tries to see the glass as half full at all times. I believe Steve is a nice, generous person. I don't necessarily believe every facet of the story about destitute board members, but let's say it's true. I don't really care. It's immaterial. I would still argue that at the point that Steve opens his wallet and pays for more than his share of the dinner, he's affecting people's perceptions of him AND CGC by association. So ultimately, it benefits CGC when Steve does this.

 

And if his motives were completely, 100% selfless and altruistic, he'd give you that money on the QT and swear you to secrecy about it, rather than stating multiple times on the boards and at the dinner itself that he's paying for the appetizers or whatever.

 

no offense, but your entire line of reasoning - the conceit that the generous payment on the down low of forumite's dinner AT HIS OWN EXPENSE is somehow the product of some sort of twisted pro-CGC propaganda and market research - is the single most embarrassing thing i've ever read on these boards. can you look at the garbage you're writing objectively and see just how utterly insulting it must be?

 

what the hell did Borock ever do to you to make such a stupid insinuation? have you no manners? no shame? i'd ask "How dare you" but that would be archaic.

[Ze-man]

This isnt directed at you Totem..

 

 

 

 

This is beyond silly. I am baffled CGC dinners, and Steves contributions are even a topic of conversation. We all have a right to discuss what we want.

 

Well It is my turn. It is DINNER and DRINKS folks, That's it!

 

(swearing to follow)

 

What am I missing? It is a God Dam, Mother *spoon* sit down dinner with our fellow comic collectors that shoot the *spoon* with each other and luckily it has evolved into a big event because this forum has allowed us the chance to get to know people we otherwise would not know even if we knocked them down in the street and landed on them. And if not for these dinners I would not know many of the people I now call friends

 

(takes a breath)

 

 

 

YES there is handshaking, elbow rubbing, table talk, hushed tones, in jokes,people trying to get Steve's ear, and Steve trying to promote whatever the idea of the month is, and YES believe it or not there is even CGC bashing. None of this is a secret or a big deal, it is just dinner fodder.

 

Years ago I sat and broke bread with Steve even though he knew I was going to grill him about the CGC holder.. he is a smooth talker and was very good at misdirection, but the fact that he bought me drinks did not sway how I felt, nor did it change our conversation.. what it changed was I knew I was dealing with a person who was out for a good time and open to listen to what I had to say and was ready to talk about music or movies as he was to spin his *spoon*.. Plitch did not run away from me either( but he does now ), he sought me out and made an effort to say hello. I found out later that the tab was WAY over budget due to some people not showing up, some not paying for drinks and some people ordering off menu. I sat and watched as Steve pulled out his plastic and said he would cover the rest. And we are talking hundreds of dollars here.

 

Did he send bill that in to CGC and comp it?.. I don't know.. I hope he has a nice stipend. But I doubt it. Nothing was said about it at the time, and anyone who has hosted or helped to organized a CGC dinners knows how he wants to try and do something for the people who attend not in a "we owe him something" kind of way, but more of a.. " Steve, CGC would like to do something nice" to those who care enough to attend the dinner. Each town has a board member be it Dan, Scott, Brian, etc..etc.. get the thing rolling, and make all the arrangements. Sure Steve has a hand in things at times. But it is bigger then CGC in the end. It is about us and CGC getting together in a casual format. If deals aremade under the table, then whoopty freaking doo. They are made all weekend too for all I know.

 

I go to the Colts games, sit in my wife's company suite and watch all the talking that goes on between the clients of her company, and the CEO of my wife's company. it is how things get done. I am not talking about greasing palms or dirty deals.. but the kind of talk that may or may not finds it's way into the Monday world. It is just business mixed with pleasure.

 

I came to this thread way too late, and have yet to read most of it. It is all well and good to air our opinions about whether or not CGC is, or is not impartial because they promote one person, or a dozen people. Or why their own definition of a Pedigree is not copacetic with what they slap on the label.

 

That is all worth talking about. And I admit I stayed out of this thread because I went and visited Matt N. for 4 days last week, so any comments I might make would obviously be viewed as biased, even if I did not intend them to be. But reading the comments made about the dinners set me off.

 

So for the love of pete..drop this *spoon* about the dinners.

They are actually one of the only things that I think we have left as a group. Lets not *spoon* it up. We owe CGC nothing by attending a CGC dinner, nor should CGC expect we owe them because they bought us a shrimp cocktail. BOTH sides should see it for what it is. A dinner where we can all learn from each other and keep tabs on each other.

 

I would say I am sorry for ranting , but I am not. Steve got thrown under the bus on this one and I felt like I had to share my 3 cents.

 

Kenny

[chaos_ad-migration]

Couldn't you guys just have a dinner without it being sponsored by CGC?

 

CGC does turn the dinners into a bit of advertising by reporting it to Scoop, no?

[FlyingDonut]

To suggest that there are Forum members who can't afford $60 for a dinner is disingenuous. What, they collect comics, but don't have $60 for a once-a-year dinner? C'mon. Are you telling me that some attendees of past dinners did not pay their own way, and Steve specifically covered their portion of the tab? Or that he contributed money that in turn brought each person's share down to some 'manageable level' for the destitute, minimum-wage workers among the board members? I would humbly suggest that "board members" who don't collect slabbed books and can't afford $60 for a 1-time event are not on these boards, and if they were I'd have to wonder what they were getting out of their time spent here.

 

Having run the Chicago dinner last year, and having helped with the Baltimore dinners the past couple of years, I can assure you without any question that Steve specifically picked up the tab for a couple of people, and, in Chicago last year, Steve picked up the part of the rather significant bar bill that was going to go unpaid at the end of the night (and, eventually, get paid by me). Whether or not CGC is reimbursing him for the bill is, quite frankly, irrelevant.

[Sid]

Get over the dinner already. It's a nice gesture by cgc in either case and I think we all can agree on that. Now everyone talk about something that's worthwhile to talk about.

[FlyingDonut]

Couldn't you guys just have a dinner without it being sponsored by CGC?

 

CGC does turn the dinners into a bit of advertising by reporting it to Scoop, no?

 

I don't think they are sponsored by CGC, outside of the fact that the vast majority of the people who attend know each other through the CGC message board, and they are "advertised" on the message board. The CGC board dinners are, to me anyway, the highlight of the convention, and to imply that there's any motivation behind it on the part of CGC to buy attendees off, is, in my opinion, ludicrous.

 

Something to remember is that the most vicious bashing I've ever seen of CGC has been at forum dinners. The Philly dinner a couple of years ago was very tense about the whole Wizard First fiasco, and last year's Chicago dinner was, at the end of the evening, very unpleasant, as two people who I like and respect really got into it.

[divad]

Discussing who volunteers to pick up the check at forum dinners and whether or not Steve gets reimbursed is utterly classless. I have never been to one of these dinners but i certainly wouldn't feel like i was being bought off just because Steve or anyone else wants to buy me a drink.

 

I agree with your comments, and the sentiment behind them - some pretty nasty stuff here tonight. Someone needs to take another break from the boards if they can't contain their, well, I don't even really know what to call it??

 

I agree. And as anyone here knows, anytime Dr. B. the Donut, FFB and I agree on anything . . . it's gotta be right.

 

There's nothing untoward about these dinners - they're just plain special!

[MasterChief]

Someone needs to take another break from the boards if they can't contain their, well, I don't even really know what to call it??

"tab talk"

I agree. Discuss pedigrees; collections; Matt; and perception, but no more "check please".

 

Overall, I found it to be a reasonable ‘perception’ debate and I appreciate the essence thereof. Sure hate to see that type of dialog censured -- in any form.

 

I think when the debate on "perception" has potential negitive impacts on the persons livelihood it has croosed the line into idle agenda driven gossip!

It is unfortunate when individuals “cross the line” into personal attacks during a debate. Losing control does not help to reinforce a position.

 

That said, I don’t necessarily believe that such an action null in voids the overall augment presented. There may very well be take-a-ways and items better off left behind. In the end, it’s up to the reader to decide how they’ll use the various points to form an opinion on the matter.

[divad]

Couldn't you guys just have a dinner without it being sponsored by CGC?

 

CGC does turn the dinners into a bit of advertising by reporting it to Scoop, no?

 

I don't think they are sponsored by CGC, outside of the fact that the vast majority of the people who attend know each other through the CGC message board, and they are "advertised" on the message board. The CGC board dinners are, to me anyway, the highlight of the convention, and to imply that there's any motivation behind it on the part of CGC to buy attendees off, is, in my opinion, ludicrous.

 

[tth2]

i certainly wouldn't feel like i was being bought off just because Steve or anyone else wants to buy me a drink.

 

Well said. Thank you!

Just for the record, I CAN be bought off by being bought a drink.

[Flaming_Telepath]

i certainly wouldn't feel like i was being bought off just because Steve or anyone else wants to buy me a drink.

 

Well said. Thank you!

Just for the record, I CAN be bought off by being bought a drink.

 

Oh, I know that...

[goldust40]

I've read most of this insane thread, and have to stress that whatever your opinion of CGC, Mr. B cannot be lambasted as he has been here.

 

Having known him in that antideluvian era pre-CGC, I can state that Steve has always been an enthusiast who enjoys chatting about the biz, and more often than not, other subjects unconnected with it (usually music). The man was always immensely popular back in his dealer days with his peers 'cause of his attitude and heart being in the right place.

 

To question his motives and claim that CGC has an agenda for having official dinners is absurd - granted, it's good PR, and some (but not much) networking is done at such events, but Steve is there because he wants to be.

 

CGC Forum dinners are for the most part the highlight of Cons. Leave 'em out of yer damn conspiracy theories (not directed at you, Nick!).

[Red Hook]

The discussion in this thread was about seeing CGC as a profit-driven business, (thus my view that the new advertising appearing on the site was also part of any normal business's operation) and I voiced the opinion that CGC dinners coulld be seen as part of a normal business's pr program. For Steve they obviously play a dual role. No biggie.

 

That's it.

 

At least from my end, it had nothing to do with personally evaluating Steve. I just want that cleared up.

[Red Hook]

And for the record, I believe Steve Borock himself weighed in on the issue of why CGC considers it a pedigree.

 

 

For the record, here is what Steve said about the Central Valley on these boards.....it is the only time the collection was discussed by anyone at CGC, on these boards......

 

As to the newest pedigree collection, the Central Valley collection: Many of these comics, in my opinion, will never be surpassed as the highest graded copy. [as of Dec. 16, 2006, of the over 350 Central Valley books that have been CGC graded, only 24 books have received grades that make them or tie them with the previous highest graded copies.]

 

If anyone here finds an OO collection of about 400 different books from 1938 to the early 50's of very tough books to find in high grade (which many are), let alone unbelievable page quality, we would be more than happy to pedigree it.

 

So what you see here, is a definite loosening of the rules of the generally accepted parameters for pedigree designation. At the same time that CGC states they are going to get tougher on labeling pedigrees and accepting dealer documentation on peds, this seems a definite liberalization of the standards as long as CGC gets to do the declaring. I have problems with this, as a collector interested in pedigrees.

 

In an effort to expand the discussion, and that's all that I want to do, I will be posting links to scans of the great pedigree article that appeared in CBM #32. Unless Gemstone forbids me, of course.

 

Red

[Monstro]

i for one don't mind the advertisements at all. i hardly even notice them.

[OldGuy]

Discussing who volunteers to pick up the check at forum dinners and whether or not Steve gets reimbursed is utterly classless. I have never been to one of these dinners but i certainly wouldn't feel like i was being bought off just because Steve or anyone else wants to buy me a drink.

 

Well said.

 

I'm as hard on CGC as anyone, but I've never felt the need to make it personal. I consider Steve my friend and it's never even entered my mind that he might be unethical. I don't always agree with him, but I have no doubt that he has a love for this hobby unrivaled by anyone and that this love is his primary motivating factor.