Requsting opinions of effect of Restoration on resale value

Aloha · December 15, 2006

Sorry if this has been addressed before somewhere else on the board (if so, could someone point me to a link?). I'm just getting started into collecting CGC books, preferring in the past to just buy raw books to read. Anyway, I'm looking into buying a few 70's marvel keys that are CGC 9.2 books that have been restored slightly according to the CGC grade. Naturally, these books are being offered much cheaper than unrestored 9.2's. My questions are:

1) What in your opinion, is a fair discount % off of the unrestored 9.2 price to pay for a 9.2 restored CGC book?

2) How are CGC restored books perceived in the current marketplace? Do most advanced collectors avoid them, preferring to pay a few hundred dollars extra for an unrestored book in the same grade?

Thanks in advance for your advice

FFB · December 15, 2006

Sorry if this has been addressed before somewhere else on the board (if so, could someone point me to a link?). I'm just getting started into collecting CGC books, preferring in the past to just buy raw books to read. Anyway, I'm looking into buying a few 70's marvel keys that are CGC 9.2 books that have been restored slightly according to the CGC grade. Naturally, these books are being offered much cheaper than unrestored 9.2's. My questions are:

1) What in your opinion, is a fair discount % off of the unrestored 9.2 price to pay for a 9.2 restored CGC book?

2) How are CGC restored books perceived in the current marketplace? Do most advanced collectors avoid them, preferring to pay a few hundred dollars extra for an unrestored book in the same grade?

Thanks in advance for your advice

It's too hard to answer this question with any certainty, and there might not even be an accurate answer. Bronze age books usually take a real beating in value if they are restored -- even moreso than silver age and golden age, although there are a few sales of books like X-Men #94 and others that have sold for surprisingly high prices with slight color touch (presumably from an unsophisticated buyer who really wanted the book and may not have realized what he was buying).

Your best bet is to get a collector's subscription to www.gpanalysis.com and look up reported sales of restored, CGC-graded bronze age books.

bluechip · December 15, 2006

Sorry if this has been addressed before somewhere else on the board (if so, could someone point me to a link?). I'm just getting started into collecting CGC books, preferring in the past to just buy raw books to read. Anyway, I'm looking into buying a few 70's marvel keys that are CGC 9.2 books that have been restored slightly according to the CGC grade. Naturally, these books are being offered much cheaper than unrestored 9.2's. My questions are:

1) What in your opinion, is a fair discount % off of the unrestored 9.2 price to pay for a 9.2 restored CGC book?

2) How are CGC restored books perceived in the current marketplace? Do most advanced collectors avoid them, preferring to pay a few hundred dollars extra for an unrestored book in the same grade?

Thanks in advance for your advice

It's too hard to answer this question with any certainty, and there might not even be an accurate answer. Bronze age books usually take a real beating in value if they are restored -- even moreso than silver age and golden age, although there are a few sales of books like X-Men #94 and others that have sold for surprisingly high prices with slight color touch (presumably from an unsophisticated buyer who really wanted the book and may not have realized what he was buying).

Your best bet is to get a collector's subscription to www.gpanalysis.com and look up reported sales of restored, CGC-graded bronze age books.

The more common a book the more it should be left alone and the more restored copies should be dminished in value.

The fact that people are willing to oay high prices for books with color touch etc indicates that many or even most people don't automatically ascribe the mark of cain to a book with color touch. IIf the color touch is obvious then it's safe to presume they saw it and that it's not so much that they don't "realize what they're buying" so much as they don't realize how vehemently some people feel about coloe rouch and that those people may seek to drive down the value of the book if the buyer should ever need to resell it. When I have avoided books with color touch it was not because I thought it was an unforgivable flaw or that I thought the average person would think so, but because I knew it would draw the fire of the restoration jihadists.

FFB · December 15, 2006

Sorry if this has been addressed before somewhere else on the board (if so, could someone point me to a link?). I'm just getting started into collecting CGC books, preferring in the past to just buy raw books to read. Anyway, I'm looking into buying a few 70's marvel keys that are CGC 9.2 books that have been restored slightly according to the CGC grade. Naturally, these books are being offered much cheaper than unrestored 9.2's. My questions are:

1) What in your opinion, is a fair discount % off of the unrestored 9.2 price to pay for a 9.2 restored CGC book?

2) How are CGC restored books perceived in the current marketplace? Do most advanced collectors avoid them, preferring to pay a few hundred dollars extra for an unrestored book in the same grade?

Thanks in advance for your advice

It's too hard to answer this question with any certainty, and there might not even be an accurate answer. Bronze age books usually take a real beating in value if they are restored -- even moreso than silver age and golden age, although there are a few sales of books like X-Men #94 and others that have sold for surprisingly high prices with slight color touch (presumably from an unsophisticated buyer who really wanted the book and may not have realized what he was buying).

Your best bet is to get a collector's subscription to www.gpanalysis.com and look up reported sales of restored, CGC-graded bronze age books.

The more common a book the more it should be left alone and the more restored copies should be dminished in value.

Personally, I disagree with this. Since we're talking about "should" instead of what actually happens in the marketplace, I believe that restored books with color touch "should" be viewed the same way as an unrestored book with a stain of equal size to the color touch. But the purple label has now given those books much larger defects. The Mark of Cain, as you put it.

bluechip · December 16, 2006

Sorry if this has been addressed before somewhere else on the board (if so, could someone point me to a link?). I'm just getting started into collecting CGC books, preferring in the past to just buy raw books to read. Anyway, I'm looking into buying a few 70's marvel keys that are CGC 9.2 books that have been restored slightly according to the CGC grade. Naturally, these books are being offered much cheaper than unrestored 9.2's. My questions are:

1) What in your opinion, is a fair discount % off of the unrestored 9.2 price to pay for a 9.2 restored CGC book?

2) How are CGC restored books perceived in the current marketplace? Do most advanced collectors avoid them, preferring to pay a few hundred dollars extra for an unrestored book in the same grade?

Thanks in advance for your advice

It's too hard to answer this question with any certainty, and there might not even be an accurate answer. Bronze age books usually take a real beating in value if they are restored -- even moreso than silver age and golden age, although there are a few sales of books like X-Men #94 and others that have sold for surprisingly high prices with slight color touch (presumably from an unsophisticated buyer who really wanted the book and may not have realized what he was buying).

Your best bet is to get a collector's subscription to www.gpanalysis.com and look up reported sales of restored, CGC-graded bronze age books.

The more common a book the more it should be left alone and the more restored copies should be dminished in value.

Personally, I disagree with this. Since we're talking about "should" instead of what actually happens in the marketplace, I believe that restored books with color touch "should" be viewed the same way as an unrestored book with a stain of equal size to the color touch. But the purple label has now given those books much larger defects. The Mark of Cain, as you put it.

Actually, on that point we are in total agreement.

When I say "restored" I mean a book that has been IMPROVED in appearance. Color touch doesn't do that, so it's absurd to call it restoration in the first place

FFB · December 16, 2006

Sorry if this has been addressed before somewhere else on the board (if so, could someone point me to a link?). I'm just getting started into collecting CGC books, preferring in the past to just buy raw books to read. Anyway, I'm looking into buying a few 70's marvel keys that are CGC 9.2 books that have been restored slightly according to the CGC grade. Naturally, these books are being offered much cheaper than unrestored 9.2's. My questions are:

1) What in your opinion, is a fair discount % off of the unrestored 9.2 price to pay for a 9.2 restored CGC book?

2) How are CGC restored books perceived in the current marketplace? Do most advanced collectors avoid them, preferring to pay a few hundred dollars extra for an unrestored book in the same grade?

Thanks in advance for your advice

It's too hard to answer this question with any certainty, and there might not even be an accurate answer. Bronze age books usually take a real beating in value if they are restored -- even moreso than silver age and golden age, although there are a few sales of books like X-Men #94 and others that have sold for surprisingly high prices with slight color touch (presumably from an unsophisticated buyer who really wanted the book and may not have realized what he was buying).

Your best bet is to get a collector's subscription to www.gpanalysis.com and look up reported sales of restored, CGC-graded bronze age books.

The more common a book the more it should be left alone and the more restored copies should be dminished in value.

Personally, I disagree with this. Since we're talking about "should" instead of what actually happens in the marketplace, I believe that restored books with color touch "should" be viewed the same way as an unrestored book with a stain of equal size to the color touch. But the purple label has now given those books much larger defects. The Mark of Cain, as you put it.

Actually, on that point we are in total agreement.

When I say "restored" I mean a book that has been IMPROVED in appearance. Color touch doesn't do that, so it's absurd to call it restoration in the first place

I'm afraid I don't follow you. You don't think that color touch improved the appearance of this book?

thedarkknight · December 17, 2006

Personally, I wouldn't pay more that 5-10% of unrestored guide for slight on a bronze age book. I wouldn't buy a bronze book with moderate to extensive restoration.

The market may be different, that's just my view.

Sid · December 17, 2006

A restored bronze book seems fairly stupid to me as there should be enough books floating around without restoration. I would maybe pay 25% of guide or less for these books.

Silver/golden, depending on book I'd maybe be willing to pay 50% of guide of the 3rd party grade. Never will I buy a restored book that is not slabbed unless they don't disclose it.

bluechip · December 17, 2006

[quote.

When I say "restored" I mean a book that has been IMPROVED in appearance. Color touch doesn't do that, so it's absurd to call it restoration in the first place

I'm afraid I don't follow you. You don't think that color touch improved the appearance of this book?

Perhaps it would be more clear if I said color doesn't always do that. I thought we were referring to books with ONLY color touch and that usually means amateur color touch with pens and markers and those don't really improve the grade of a book. They should always be considered as defects.\

In fact I agree with you that even professional color touch should be considered as defects, too, and that there is no need for a purple label. If restoration was treated as a defect, and noted as such, it would give everybody the information they need. But purple labels and restoration standards are not designed to impart information but to impart an ATTITUDE. To make people shun something even if they were previously inclined not to.

It's almost as if someone wanted to lash out at people who made books appear better by making them appear worse and putting them in ugly shunned labels.

When you read the quotes from people defending the labels by saying they've made things "more affordable" and how they also like the fact the guide is not accurate on low grade examples of some books, it seems that purple labels and misleading guide prices work hand in hand so that people will be misled into thinking a small stack of unhead and even comon high grade books is the financial equal of a major and famous key book in low grade.

That goes against common sense -- but with the interests of people who want to sell high grade commons in order to obtain low grade keys

bluechip · December 17, 2006

A restored bronze book seems fairly stupid to me as there should be enough books floating around without restoration. I would maybe pay 25% of guide or less for these books.

Silver/golden, depending on book I'd maybe be willing to pay 50% of guide of the 3rd party grade. Never will I buy a restored book that is not slabbed unless they don't disclose it.

Interesting notion. I see absolutely no point whatsoever in having a restored book in a sealed purple label. Might as well put a sticker on it that says "don't buy this" which is essentially the reason the purple label was created.

But if that's the case then I suppose the best bargain is a restored book that somebody's been follish enough to have put in a purple lable and then keep it there. The seller has willingly aided people who want to make his book "more affordable" and is throwing away value by keeping it in that slab. So, I guess buying restored books oinly if they're in a holder could be sound policy.

But beware because there are always exceptions to the rule, and once people catch on the bargains may not be in restored books that aren't in slabs -- because you and everybody else is shunning them.

And so it goes...,.

Dr_Neff · December 18, 2006

1) What in your opinion, is a fair discount % off of the unrestored 9.2 price to pay for a 9.2 restored CGC book?

2) How are CGC restored books perceived in the current marketplace? Do most advanced collectors avoid them, preferring to pay a few hundred dollars extra for an unrestored book in the same grade?

1 ) 75% of retail price

2) collectors avoid them all at the lower levels (ie value) but i am sure no one would mind a resto copy of Action 1 or any of the rarer keys like All American 16 or marvel mystery 2 - i would be happy with a 1.0 restored complete married page xerox you know what I'm saying? just because your 1968 L88 corvette has some bondo on it doesn't mean you don't look cool in it right?

Next week : FINE ART vs. COMIC BOOKS (constantly restored works = $$M$$)

Sid · December 18, 2006

A restored bronze book seems fairly stupid to me as there should be enough books floating around without restoration. I would maybe pay 25% of guide or less for these books.

Silver/golden, depending on book I'd maybe be willing to pay 50% of guide of the 3rd party grade. Never will I buy a restored book that is not slabbed unless they don't disclose it.

Interesting notion. I see absolutely no point whatsoever in having a restored book in a sealed purple label. Might as well put a sticker on it that says "don't buy this" which is essentially the reason the purple label was created.

But if that's the case then I suppose the best bargain is a restored book that somebody's been follish enough to have put in a purple lable and then keep it there. The seller has willingly aided people who want to make his book "more affordable" and is throwing away value by keeping it in that slab. So, I guess buying restored books oinly if they're in a holder could be sound policy.

But beware because there are always exceptions to the rule, and once people catch on the bargains may not be in restored books that aren't in slabs -- because you and everybody else is shunning them.

And so it goes...,.

Leaving a restored book in slab shows honesty to me, and as a buyer I believe that ranks above all. If you're suggesting taking it out of the slab and then selling it without disclosing the findings then .

bluechip · December 18, 2006

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Leaving a restored book in slab shows honesty to me, and as a buyer I believe that ranks above all. If you're suggesting taking it out of the slab and then selling it without disclosing the findings then .

I am absolutely not suggesting taking a restored book out of a slab and selling it as unrestored. I am suggesting it is pointless to have a restored book in a slab because the slab labels exist primarily as a reeassurance a book is not restored. So why deprive yourself of reading a book if you know it's restored? Why keep it in a slab that only prevcents you from reading it and which makes it look ugly?

Further, I believe the insistence on lumping all restored books together regardless of what work wasa done or how much, and the insistance on NOT providing details about work is dishonest -- because it accomplishes nothing except to deprive people of information, and the only possible result of that is to drive down the price of restored books. Which suggests very strongly that driving down the value is the agenda behind insisting on not giving that information.

And people do insist on making the information about restored books obscure -- vehementl;y insist on it. Insist on putting the mark of cain on all restored books and further insist the information on what work was done remain sketchy.

I have found that many of the same people who insist on doing so are the same people who routinely sell slabbed high grade books which are exceedingly common, or who at the very least say nothing about that priactive -- which raises the question of where the high-mjinded ehtics have disappeared to when it comes to people being deceived about the value of the item they're buying. It's okay to make somebody think a worthless and common book has value just because the book is also high grade and unrestored?

I believe in honest and NON-MANIPULATIVE labelling. Purposely deceiving people that all restored books should be lumped together is deceptive. And so is changing the standards so that what is restored in some cases comes out as unrestored in other cases.

I also think that it's wrong to identify some markings as restoration even when they don't improve a book, based soley on what the grader asserts the person was thinking at the time, or to grade a book as restored just because the grader wants to assert somebody flattened the book intentionally rather than unintentionally. Once you allow that the system becomes fraught with potential for dishonesty and for manipulating up or down the value of items based on what will ultimately beneift the grader's own property, or the property of particularly valued (or lesser valued) clients

Hey, for that matter simply having collectors slabbing and grading books is fraught with the potential for conflict of interest. Especially when those collectors own particular types of books, and those books seem to be the ones that are favored by the inconsistencies.

If you read some of the posts here youll get the mistaken view that honesty in comics dealing is completely and totally and exclusively about revealing whether a book is restored -- and about letting somebody else force you to call it restored even when the grade hasn't been improved -- just becAuse they want you to call it restored so they can drive down the value.

Honesty is about a lot more than what's restored and not restored. For instance, find the dealers who are willing to tell you that high grade slabbed copy of Civil War Unlimited is virtually worthless ((instead of trying to sell it for hundreds) and then you'll know they're honest. People are cheated in this hobby every day and undisclosed restoration probably accounts for the barest fraction of the cheating. Yet somehow it's the only cheat you every hear anybody complaining about. And I fear that's because it's a cheat that cuts both ways. You can cheat people by not disclosing restoration. And you can cheat people by convincing them books are valuable just because they're not restored. And the latter, in my view, is happening muchmore than the former.

Before you wag your finger at me again, as a a buyer who respects honesty, ask why the other people selling to you NEVER have ONE WORD to say about all the disthonesty in mispresenting books as valuable just because they're high grade and unrestored. Ask about that and suddenly the honesty purists have nothing to say except "buyer beware" or that it's up to the buyer to be informed. And those same people work hard to make sure that buyers are NOT informed that a book may be called restored even if the "restoration" donw did not actually increase the apparent grade of the book. The same people want you NOT to know that some books by connected dealers whti identical "work" (color touch or glue, etc) are labelled not restored. Ask if those same people are trying to steer you away from books that your common sense tells you are valuable, and toward books you never heard of. (oh right., I forgot, it's "buyer beware")

Askall those questions, and then you may wat to rethink to whom you are giving a to

Sid · December 18, 2006

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Leaving a restored book in slab shows honesty to me, and as a buyer I believe that ranks above all. If you're suggesting taking it out of the slab and then selling it without disclosing the findings then .