How Would You Like Some Nice Brown Stains on Your 9.4 Near-Mint Book?

[Lockjaw]

Your post made me laugh, but c'mon...be gentle. Not everyone can handle being punked.

 

By the way, to the poster who asked about foxing in another thread...I apologize for accusing you of being the seller of the that scam auction that was brought up by you in another thread.

[garthgantu]

I agree with 'dad' on this one too... You see a small scan of a slabbed book, you see the 9.4 or 9.2 and you think good thoughts. You don't think "hmmm...let me check the list of possible defects that Overstreet says are acceptable at this grade, and try to make an educated guess as to whether CGC allows all of the same defects. Then let me recall all the other defects and bull-pucky that CGC allows for in a "NM" book, and make a judgement call on buying this comic."

 

Hell, in some auctions the CGC label is presented at higher res than the scan of the book!

 

I think this is just another example of why CGC needs to really clarify its grading practices. It's one thing to say "we use the Overstreet 10-point grading system" - and another to say "well, we have our own 'addendum' to the 10-point system, but mum's the word on that." This is essentially what CGC does. Figuring our CGC's grading parameters is a bit like discovering far off planets and stars; you don't actually SEE those planets and stars, you see the effect they have on other planetary bodies and extrapolate from there. Only nailing down CGC's idea of "NM- 9.2" or "NM+ 9.6" is much harder than finding a new planet. You think you've got a handle on what NM 9.2 means to the graders at CGC, and then you see something like this, or you see "NM 9.2 *qualified* - MVS clipped" or a VF+ 8.5 book with a sub crease, or a VF- 7.5 with glasses drawn on The Rifleman's face, or...

 

I realize that grading a comic book is always going to be somewhat subjective, but at some level it should be possible to describe the process in such a way that anyone can understand it and apply it to their purchasing decisions. There's no question CGC could do this, the question is, why haven't they? The answer is, they don't want to paint themselves into a corner... by keeping things vague, they can deflect a lot of criticism.

[OldGuy]

I think this is just another example of why CGC needs to really clarify its grading practices.

 

I think it's just another example of why trusting CGC implicitly is foolish. CGC is a good "helper", but it's not perfect and is no substitute for the human eye. A 9.4 being a 9.4 is in the eye of the beholder and if I be holding the book then it's my eye that counts, not CGC's.

[BachelorOfComix]

Buyer Beware. I have no sympathy for people who don't ask their seller questions, or request larger scans, etc...

 

Foxing: slight foxing is allowed in NM & NM- comics according to Overstreet standards. Evidentally CGC too. I don't care if YOU don't like it. Overstreet is the bible of comic collecting & CGC, albeit, not perfect, is doing a great job for our hobby. If you guys don't like slight foxing, date stamps (or whatever else pet peeve you have) on NM or NM- comics, create your own grading company or grading guide that caters to your needs. I doubt Overstreet will change on this foxing issue. It's been like this for a long time.

[BachelorOfComix]

I think it's just another example of why trusting CGC implicitly is foolish. CGC is a good "helper", but it's not perfect and is no substitute for the human eye. A 9.4 being a 9.4 is in the eye of the beholder and if I be holding the book then it's my eye that counts, not CGC's.

 

Well said. I could not agree more.

[fantastic_four]

Overstreet is the bible of comic collecting & CGC, albeit, not perfect, is doing a great job for our hobby. If you guys don't like slight foxing, date stamps (or whatever else pet peeve you have) on NM or NM- comics, create your own grading company or grading guide that caters to your needs.

 

Way to keep an open mind...the grading standards need work, and everybody knows it, including the CGC graders and Overstreet.

 

 

I doubt Overstreet will change on this foxing issue. It's been like this for a long time.

 

Since when did he define it "a long time" ago? Where?

[MrNice-migration]

Bachelor, I am in complete agreement with you on "buy the book, not the slab/label". I can see the point that Dad makes about the scans presented on Ebay.

 

While it is prudent to ask questions and request larger scans when the Ebay pictures provided by the seller are lacking in size to determine defects, the tendencies to bid on a 9.2 or 9.4 book over-ride asking about such things as staining if not visible on the image. You figure, 9.2 or 9.4 is going to be a comic devoid of creasing, staining, spotting, etc., and the worst you'll encounter is some minor stressing on the spine and possibly some corner blunting.

 

Besides small scans, there are also sellers who so drastically brighten up the intensity and contrast on white cover books that you can barely make out the comic's edges from the stark white screen background!!! This makes ANY dark stains "magically" disappear in a very misleading way and anyone who manipulates a white cover comic's scan to promote this effect is definitely doing so deliberately (if they left the brightness alone, the staining would clearly show up on even small scans!).

 

So in asking, "any foxing?", "any dark staining?" you may not get a straight answer anyway. Personally, when I see those "brightened to the max scans" representing an Ebay item, I pass. If I can't see the detail I wish to see, I pass.

[BachelorOfComix]

Way to keep an open mind...the grading standards need work, and everybody knows it, including the CGC graders and Overstreet.

I don't see a problem with slight foxing in the NM or NM- grade. I have not heard a big uproar about it. But if you can change the grading standards to cater to your collecting needs, all the power to you. What's next on your grading hit list? date stamps?

 

Since when did he define it "a long time" ago? Where?

So you're saying that slight foxing in the NM or NM- grade just happened overnight? Taking a peek at the 1992 Grading Guide: (Page 89, Near Mint 94: "Light foxing along spine"). I don't have any older reference materials. I think 11 years is a "long time" in the comic world. Perhaps some long-time collectors can speak up about the acceptance of foxing in the 80s, 70s, etc.....

[BachelorOfComix]

So in asking, "any foxing?", "any dark staining?" you may not get a straight answer anyway. Personally, when I see those "brightened to the max scans" representing an Ebay item, I pass. If I can't see the detail I wish to see, I pass.

That is very prudent & wise to pass. In the majority of cases if you pass, there will be another. If you're an anal retentive collector when it comes to specific pet peeves (foxing, date stamps, miswrap, etc.....), you better make sure you do your homework. If not, don't come crying. No one forced you to buy or bid. Or just try to change the current Overstreet & CGC grading standards to cater to your needs & wants.

[supapimp]

dad,

 

can you post a scan of the book in question? maybe some forumite will take it off your hands.

 

pimpy

[Illiterati-migration]

He can't see brown stains on a white cover? I never said they were perfect, but I'm sick & tired of these whiny .

 

How is he being whiny to say a Near Mint comic shouldn't have foxing? I agree with him, and I don't believe his point to be at all negative or destructive because he's not harping on a one-time mistake on CGC's part, but rather criticizing a potential problem with their standards.

 

I have to wonder how severe the foxing on his 9.2 was. To say that a NM comic can have "no" foxing is too absolute; it depends on how severe the foxing is as to whether it merits a NM grade or not.

 

[fantastic_four]

So you're saying that slight foxing in the NM or NM- grade just happened overnight? Taking a peek at the 1992 Grading Guide: (Page 89, Near Mint 94: "Light foxing along spine"). I don't have any older reference materials. I think 11 years is a "long time" in the comic world. Perhaps some long-time collectors can speak up about the acceptance of foxing in the 80s, 70s, etc.....

 

How many fox spots can you see on page 89? I can see exactly none; they're not visible in the picture and he doesn't define what "light" means. I knew that picture was there before I asked, although I thought I'd have to reference it myself to make the point so kudos for finding it--Overstreet hasn't really defined these sorts of issues with any sort of clarity.

 

I agree with supa, we'd have to see the book in question to agree or disagree with dad's point.

[BachelorOfComix]

How many fox spots can you see on page 89? I can see exactly none; they're not visible in the picture and he doesn't define what "light" means. I knew that picture was there before I asked, although I thought I'd have to reference it myself to make the point so kudos for finding it--Overstreet hasn't really defined these sorts of issues with any sort of clarity.

That is a brutal black & white picture on page 89 to be viewing defects. The close-up pic on page 90 is equally brutal. I'm sure this is one reason why the new grading guide has full color pics. Book in hand or a large scan would undoubtedly make it more visible.

 

I agree with supa, we'd have to see the book in question to agree or disagree with dad's point.

Yes, I would like to see a scan too. I'm expecting to see a horrible, brown stained monstrosity.

[dad-migration]

Buyer Beware. I have no sympathy for people who don't ask their seller questions, or request larger scans, etc...

 

Foxing: slight foxing is allowed in NM & NM- comics according to Overstreet standards. Evidentally CGC too. I don't care if YOU don't like it. Overstreet is the bible of comic collecting & CGC, albeit, not perfect, is doing a great job for our hobby. If you guys don't like slight foxing, date stamps (or whatever else pet peeve you have) on NM or NM- comics, create your own grading company or grading guide that caters to your needs. I doubt Overstreet will change on this foxing issue. It's been like this for a long time.

 

 

Comic book grading is inherently subjective. I don't see how it could

be otherwise, since different people attach different values to different

aspects of a book. To me, white pages are more important that a

few minor stress creases or other structural imperfections. Clearly,

many people feel otherwise.

 

The fact that grading must always be subjective implies that a

"standardized" grading system can never be accepted by everyone.

I don't deny that the people who developed this system may have

done their best. However, that doesn't mean I have to agree with

it!

 

Where I believe I have a legitimate complaint is the practice of

some dealers who feel as though the CGC practice frees them

of the responsibility for describing a book's flaws. A CGC grade

is a guide, its another piece of information--not the entire world.

 

[BachelorOfComix]

We would all like to see a scan or pic of your horrible, brown stained monstrosity. Please. Thank You.

 

[BachelorOfComix]

Where I believe I have a legitimate complaint is the practice of

some dealers who feel as though the CGC practice frees them

of the responsibility for describing a book's flaws.A CGC grade

is a guide, its another piece of information--not the entire world.

I know I'm sounding like a broken record, but I have no choice. If you have specific grading pet peeves (foxing, date stamps, miswraps, etc...) ask questions, ask for a larger scan! If you do not get a reply or a sufficient answer, then don't buy! Or roll the dice & pray it doesn't have foxing, a date stamp, a miswrap, or whatever gets your goat!

 

[BachelorOfComix]

Can we see a scan or pic of the comic please?

[BachelorOfComix]

Can we see a scan or pic of the comic please?

*BUMP*

[fantastic_four]

I wish dad would put as much effort into replying to counterpoints as he does into his original points...

[Kevin76]

He can't see brown stains on a white cover? I never said they were perfect, but I'm sick & tired of these whiny

 

Whiny ? Try working on the other end of the week of me at my work..nothin but whiners.