How do you feel about blue labels with "minor color touch" ??

[innocuous]

This is a great thread and sorry I missed out on a couple of days. The only thing I would like to add (er, request) with regards to disclosure is for CGC to post graders notes online. This would help everyone understand the detected level of restoration. They should also note the source of the restoration. For example, if I ever send my Buck Rogers #1 in to get graded, I'll send along the restoration sheet sent by Matt. I think it should stay attached to the comic as a permanent record of the work performed.

 

For record, I like the idea of a single label with everything you need to know right on it.

[FFB]

Second, you seem to continue to conveniently forget about the "intent" part of the equation. How in the world could you expect me to hold every kid who folded back the cover as he read his favorite comic in the same disdain that I hold an otherwise sophisticated collector who out of some misplaced desire for perfection on the cheap decides to restore a comic to make it look better than it really is?

 

Mint snob. Tell that junk to Jon Berk, Bob Overstreet, and everyone else who has ever bought a restored book they loved or had a book restored.

Not saying it wasn't done in the past by many upstanding members of the community. But values change, and what used to be acceptable might not be so acceptable a generation or two later.

 

Hey, whatever. My point was that someone has to call these guys up and tell them that some of their most prized books are garbage because of a little resto. Might as well be you. Make sure you record the conversations though, because I'd hate to miss what they'll have to say to you.

[adamstrange]

I'm having trouble slogging through this thread. Did someone mention Obidiah yet?

 

P.S.: FFB is right.

 

You're on a roll tonight! Have a good time at DW?

[showcase4]

To borrow a concept from my other thread, I would like to here opnions from as many of you as possible on this choice..........

 

 

assuming the price and PQ were the same, and you were choosing between 2 copies of More Fun 52, which one would you choose, and why?

 

a) G/VG 3.0 Universal label - no graders notes

b) VG/F 5.0 Universal label - graders notes "very minor amount of color touch on cover"

[tth2]

Mint snob. Tell that junk to Jon Berk, Bob Overstreet, and everyone else who has ever bought a restored book they loved or had a book restored.

Not saying it wasn't done in the past by many upstanding members of the community. But values change, and what used to be acceptable might not be so acceptable a generation or two later.

 

Hey, whatever. My point was that someone has to call these guys up and tell them that some of their most prized books are garbage because of a little resto. Might as well be you. Make sure you record the conversations though, because I'd hate to miss what they'll have to say to you.

No way. Jon Berk is a scary, scary man. He'd be liable to go medieval on me, my forebears and descendants. And then go after all of our neighbors just for good measure. Why do you think long-time collectors call him Jon B-ers-erk?

[gifflefunk]

To borrow a concept from my other thread, I would like to here opnions from as many of you as possible on this choice..........

 

 

assuming the price and PQ were the same, and you were choosing between 2 copies of More Fun 52, which one would you choose, and why?

 

a) G/VG 3.0 Universal label - no graders notes

b) VG/F 5.0 Universal label - graders notes "very minor amount of color touch on cover"

 

 

I would need more information, but if the color touch was professionally done and reversible (removable) and the book would still grade in the 4.0 to 5.0 range without it, then I would take the "restored" book (who wouldn't?? you can always have the "work" removed).

 

If the work done was not reversible, then it comes down to price for me.

[thedarkknight]

Hey! And it we put a label on it that said "this book sucks" the prices would get even lower.

 

They should put that on Detective Comics 38!

[thedarkknight]

To borrow a concept from my other thread, I would like to here opnions from as many of you as possible on this choice..........

 

 

assuming the price and PQ were the same, and you were choosing between 2 copies of More Fun 52, which one would you choose, and why?

 

a) G/VG 3.0 Universal label - no graders notes

b) VG/F 5.0 Universal label - graders notes "very minor amount of color touch on cover"

 

It would depend on eye appeal to me. Of the book, not the label.

[bluechip]

If it's not a "scarlet letter" to put a book in a purple label then why put a book with slight color touch in a blue label?? Why not put evetrything in a purple label that has the slightest piosubility of having been touched?

Exactly! All restoration, for whatever reason, however slight, should be disclosed. The book is not original. I go further and say resto should be divided into conservation and restoration categories as the latter thing, such as pieces added, only serves to make the book look better not to preserve it for the future. But the label should still indicate that it's different than an original because a pristine untouched 9.0 is not the same as a frankenbook that was made 9.0. Purple all the way. But if some kid spilled Elmers glue on a stack of books in 1946 that doesn't mean some dealer was trying to glue the spine in 1984. That's a blue defect. And that's where the grader needs to judge carefully.

 

This really shows how complex the debate -- and in particular the purple label -- has made the issue.

 

As I started to read your response I thought we were totally in sync, and if not totally agreeing at least totally understanfing each other and using the same sort of reasoning -- just leading to different opinions.

 

Then, it comes back once again to judging a defect based on what a grader thinks somebody was thinking when it happens and putting a "scarlet letter" on the book based not on the defect itself but on the supposedly improper thought!!

 

Guys, really, isn't a grading service supposed to be about determing the appearance and the defefts of a book -- not about reading minds and puniswhing thoughts???

[bluechip]

BTW, the "thought police" aspect of purple labelling for "intentional" glue or color touch is precisely why the "scarlet letter" term is so perfectly appropriate for the purple label.

 

As you may know, tit comes from a book by Hawthorne that describes how women were made to wear scarlet red letters to show they had once indulged in adulterous behavior, or even thought. They did that in certain societies because there wasn't generally a way you could tell what a woman had done in the past -- no physical change to her, nothing that physically diminished her value. But they considered her damaged for what had gone on solely in her mind.

 

Either that, or ir's a reference to emails from Scarlet Johannsen. Not entirely sure which.

[bluechip]

To borrow a concept from my other thread, I would like to here opnions from as many of you as possible on this choice..........

 

 

assuming the price and PQ were the same, and you were choosing between 2 copies of More Fun 52, which one would you choose, and why?

 

a) G/VG 3.0 Universal label - no graders notes

b) VG/F 5.0 Universal label - graders notes "very minor amount of color touch on cover"

 

It would depend on how they looked and how they were priced. If the 5.0 looked better I would prefer it over the 3.0. If the 3.0 had "accidental" markings on it that were as big as or even larger than the "intentional" markings on the 5.0 I and the 5.0 subsequently had a purple label -- I would note to myself that it's another example of attempted mind-reading anti-restoration insantiy

[bluechip]

This is a great thread and sorry I missed out on a couple of days. The only thing I would like to add (er, request) with regards to disclosure is for CGC to post graders notes online. This would help everyone understand the detected level of restoration. They should also note the source of the restoration. For example, if I ever send my Buck Rogers #1 in to get graded, I'll send along the restoration sheet sent by Matt. I think it should stay attached to the comic as a permanent record of the work performed.

 

For record, I like the idea of a single label with everything you need to know right on it.

 

It would be soooooo easy for CGC to have a database of material which they could print out for you, even embed into the label if you wanted. But they could also keep it in their records for future buyers could reference it.

 

And aside from being sooooo easy and of sooooo much benefit to the buyer, it could also be a nice profit center for CGC or for somebody else if CGC won't do it.

 

Think about it. The ability to do all the above has been around for some time. Why not do it> And an even better question -- WHY OPPOSE IT?

 

Does anyone really honestly think that opposing more information will lead to more honest behavior.

 

Does anyone really believe that "scarlet letter" labels with flexible and inconsistent standards -- often based on SUPPOSITION instead of fact -- leads to more honest hehavior?

[whetteon]

Let me clarify something. I feel any minute amount of restoration should be described and labeled appropriately. Whether that's a purple label or some type of similar process is up for the the collectors and CGC to decide.

 

My original 'gleeful' post is that many collectors out there feel that a small amount of color touch or a dot of glue on the spine is unacceptable for their collection and this helps poorer collectors like myself afford otherwise gorgeous books typically out of our price range. There is no attempt to 'manipulate the market'. On the contrary, the market has already made up it's mind long before I shared my views.

 

I would like to see a more detailed CGC labels in the future that describes the degree of restoration a book has acquired using a number system from 1 to 10. (I know I've seen post on this in the past and I was looking forward to the announcement which has yet to come.) Obviously a more informed collecting community might be more forgiving of a 1 (minor color touch) then a 7 ( book cleaned, pressed, reinforced and tears sealed). Generally now, we don't distinguish between a franken-book and a dot of glue other then to say 'slight restoration' and 'extensive restoration'.

 

It's this particular members opinion that the current system lumps ALL restoration into one category; bad to buy. And whether you choose to acknowledge this or dance around the definition is really none of my interest. But the reality, as I choose to perceive it, is that various restoration is 'okay' for my collection and even my first choice over something of lesser grade.

 

Golden Age books are ticking time bombs who's days are numbered. Eventually ALL of these books will need some type of restoration to keep them around for future generations. And at that point in time, a small amount of color touch will be the least of our worries.

[Bullet123]

This is addressed to everyone...

Does anyone agree with bluechip that the PLOD was created as a concerted effort to decrease the value of restored books? If so, please stand up and be counted.

I think when CGC began, they had no idea how much prices would be driven up by blue labels and how much prices would be driven down by purple and green labels.

 

I think its a combination of Blue label high grade books increasing dramatically while green and purple have remained constant or dropped a little. I also think the advent of the internet ( E-bay, etc which made the world a smaller place for the consumer) has made people realize that most books are not as uncommon as first thought therefore given the choice between a mid grade or a restored book, the consumer now takes the blue label book most of the time and only will take a restored when the price is too good to pass up. The market (via the consumer) is dictating the supply/demand pricing structure not the label.

[Mr. Zipper]

a) G/VG 3.0 Universal label - no graders notes

b) VG/F 5.0 Universal label - graders notes "very minor amount of color touch on cover"

 

B, every time.

 

I'd take the very minor amount of CT in a 5.0 over the additional flaws of the 3.0. Typically, there is a big difference in eye appeal in 5.0 vs. 3.0. I could easily ignore the label and enjoy the much better eye appeal of a 5.0.

[mr.schomburg]

To borrow a concept from my other thread, I would like to here opnions from as many of you as possible on this choice..........

 

 

assuming the price and PQ were the same, and you were choosing between 2 copies of More Fun 52, which one would you choose, and why?

 

a) G/VG 3.0 Universal label - no graders notes

b) VG/F 5.0 Universal label - graders notes "very minor amount of color touch on cover"

 

I take option B, so long as it was a fair assesment of grade. For same money, to me a no brainer as I don't consider a dot of color, or a piece of tape restoration. Even if they were raw, but had a reputable dealer with experience, and my own eye to look, and we both came up with same grades and same notation, I would take the 5.0! Lets face it for a more fun 52, I am going to look at it. Very, very thorough. I can't for the life of me understand why they would go for the same money. Nor do I think they would. If someone had a 52 at 3.0 on ebay, and the next day there was a 5.0 blue with small color, and the following day a 5.0 blue no notes. All for the same money, I would not even look at the 3.0, and try to win one of the other two equally as hard. Just MHO.

[FFB]

To borrow a concept from my other thread, I would like to here opnions from as many of you as possible on this choice..........

 

 

assuming the price and PQ were the same, and you were choosing between 2 copies of More Fun 52, which one would you choose, and why?

 

a) G/VG 3.0 Universal label - no graders notes

b) VG/F 5.0 Universal label - graders notes "very minor amount of color touch on cover"

 

All else being equal, I'd take b) in a heartbeat. By definition, it was no worse than a 4.5 before the color touch was added. That's three grade levels better than the "virgin" 3.0, and I have always found virginity to be highly overrated anyway.

[agro23]

Then, it comes back once again to judging a defect based on what a grader thinks somebody was thinking when it happens and putting a "scarlet letter" on the book based not on the defect itself but on the supposedly improper thought!!

The thing is, I'd bet 90% of the time the grader CAN tell the intent based on what they're holding in their hands. A drop of glue on the spine should be disclosed because someone MAY have been reinforcing the spine but glue on the WHOLE spine is obviously a repair to a cover. What I DON'T understand is how "minor color touch" can get a blue label though since that's an attempt to improve the look of a book not to conserve it.

[Aman619]

it doesnt make sense, except for those few killer books, usually big $ keys from Pedigree collections that are STILL incredible specimens before the CT. meaning the ct isnt fooling anyone because its tiny, obvious and inconsequential. At least thats my view why CGC has made a few exceptions for color touch. As for glue, hasnt it usually been "tiny glue on cover", accent on "on" like its sitting there and not applied to hold a piece in place? Im puzzled how glue goton the cover, but if its sitting there not doing anything it might be benign and NOT a restoration attempt.

[whetteon]

it doesnt make sense, except for those few killer books, usually big $ keys from Pedigree collections that are STILL incredible specimens before the CT. meaning the ct isnt fooling anyone because its tiny, obvious and inconsequential. At least thats my view why CGC has made a few exceptions for color touch. As for glue, hasnt it usually been "tiny glue on cover", accent on "on" like its sitting there and not applied to hold a piece in place? Im puzzled how glue goton the cover, but if its sitting there not doing anything it might be benign and NOT a restoration attempt.

 

I could be wrong but my interpretation for those few books which received a blue label and the note 'small amount of color touch' or 'dot of glue on the spine' where because they are GA keys. If the same amount of defect was on a BA book, you better believe it would get PLOD. End of story.

 

Now whether this should be a uniformed practice or not is what I thought this debate was about. And in my opinion, NO, it should get the same treatment a PLOD gets despite being a super key and/or pedigree. But clearly the dealer wanted the blue label to sell the book at maximum potential and got his wish.