Pressing: Much ado about nothing?

[Foolkiller]

Actually I think the premise Brad brought up has validity. It simply comes down to jumping off the cliffs of uncertainty(I wanted to say insanity).And is dependent on whether or not people are willing to pay the same amount for a book knowing it was pressed into a better condition, rather then just wondering if it was. (btw..that to me should garner the lions share of our(NOD's efforts..what the exact numbers of realized disclosed sales versus similar "normal" GPA sales figures actually are)

 

Since Matt is known to be among the best in the business it shouldn't have a negative impact on final sales, it should make the sale more attractive and could only help to (for lack of a better word) destigmatize the perceived deception many people think is taking place. Right?

 

But that is the rub,if sales are negatively impacted through this disclosure and people buy and crack out books that were sold as pressed..then resold them undisclosed for top dollar, and also losing their provenance.

 

So just how virtuous is he supposed to be, and how much of the burden to bring the hobby into the sunlight lies at Matt's feet? That is an answer I do not have.

 

Over the past year my attitude towards pressed books has evolved partly through education and partly through coming to grips with the system that is in place. I am not here to debate or rake those coals again. I just want to try and help steer this ship into less turbulent waters.

 

Be it through discussion on the forum, or with Matt himself.

 

Kenny

 

In order to settle that question though, and I've suggested this before, if the dealers are confident in the stance that "it doesn't impact sales" then do a test and sell some with disclosure. See how it impacts your sales compared to say, recent GPA sales.

 

I'm sure sellers would say, that's all risk and no reward. And my response is, if nobody really is bothered by it, or it doesn't impact your sales, then you can continue pressing and not be worried -- and the reward is having tangible proof that there is no real debate in the hobby. But I get the sense nobody considers that necessary to settle right now. From a personal stand point, I think it helps your cause when you stand behind your beliefs.

 

FK, I still contend that the majority of people who bought book X graded at level Y for $Z, would feel ripped off where they to find out that book X USED to = grade Y(-2) = to $Z divided by 2.

 

The thing I'm interested to know is (because this is possibly the greatest thing I've learned in the pressing debate) what do other collectors think about dealers in this hobby given the what we now know about their mindset as it pertains to business transactions?

 

I mean think about the rhetoric coming out of the "pressing cabal" as I like to call them.

 

"Won't disclose because a third party (CGC) doesn't consider it resto"

"Won't disclose because there is no way to detect it"

" Will only disclose it asked"

"Will answer NO if asked and they personally didn't perform the work"

"Will not disclose because there is no guarantee that future owners will similarly disclose" THINK ABOUT THIS ONE REAL HARD. My first reaction was "What are we in kindergarten at recess?" My second. "Well YOU performed the pressing, or had it performed and THEREFORE YOU BERE INITIAL RESPONSIBILITY.

 

See this entire line of reasoning is what really bothers me and I could go on adnauseum at the line of normative arguments that have been posited by the "Pressing Cabal" to justify their positioning. In the end it just insults my intelligence and the rationale itself just horrifies me. It leaves me thinking that the dealers in question will really do anything that they can get away with - and by that I mean whatever will not impact sales, anything that can improve the grade of a book and still garner a blue label is not the exception, or the rule - BUT IT IS THEIR GOAL.

 

And that is why I feel the argument is important, what pressing does do, or does not do to the book, while important, to me is almost secondary. The key element for me is to discourage the mentality behind not disclosing what is happening.

 

What I ask every collector to consider are these two questions in today's hobby.

 

1. Do you think comics is a legitimate business?

 

2. If you answered yes, then why is it that the vendors in this hobby are not held to the same standard as other legitimate business entities? If you answered NO - then why are you paying hundreds / thousands of dollars and not pennies for your comic books?

 

The bottom line is that if I and the company I represent dealt with and withheld information from its clients the way the "Pressing Cabal" operates with its customers - well either we'd be out of business, or more likely in jail.

 

Jbud:

 

I think a lot of the points you make are good ones, but your last one is flat out untrue. Some people may feel the way you do, but many others may not. As I believe detective27kid indicated, he personally would not feel that way, even though he feels pressing should be disclosed.

 

Pressing has never been proven to be harmful to the books, and the way dealers operate is not in any way illegal, but operates through a loophole in the system -- and there is no consensus as there would be with a legitimate product as to what would be considered a "fraudulent product". In the "real world", products that don't work or are fraudulently misrepresented to be something they are not come under the scrutiny of various consumer agencies and potentially the attorney general's office or some other government regulatory agency. But first, there is some evidence to point to the fact that there is actually a fraudulent product. This is why I have always maintained that the burden is on those who oppose pressing to prove that pressing is either harmful to the books OR that the majority of customers, or even a significant minority, demand that pressing be disclosed. The burden is always on those seeking a change of the status quo to prove why it should be changed.

 

The problem you have with your summation statement is that there is no actual consensus in the hobby. The Pressing Cabal is free to operate the way it does because collectibles themselves have subtleties that other industries do not. You obviously know that corporate America operates with far more subversiveness and underhandness than the "pressing cabal" x 1000. For far more money as well.

 

The truth is, there's no way jail is even a remote possibility. There's no illegal conduct here. Nobody has said, pressing constitutes a fraudulent product. Without that, there can never be a violation of any sort of consumer or criminal fraud code.

 

By the way, plenty of companies in America withhold information all the time about their products, and the general public gleefully buys them (see the pharmaceutical industry as one example). And the legislature in many jurisdictions is making it more and more difficult for the common guy to even go after them in civil court, let alone criminal court, based on tort reform. The notion that withholding information by corporate america about products they foist upon the unsuspecting public is going to result in some sort of public backlash is probably the exception, not the norm. Since many companies do cost benefit analysis first to determine the cost of getting caught for knowingly putting a defective product on the market (look at the number of consumer class actions -- and then the eventual payout -- which is often fractional to the cost to having had to recall and repair proactively), it is no wonder that people press first and act later. Especially since it appears, based on the information available, that proper pressing is neither harmful nor detectable.

[namisgr]

By the way, plenty of companies in America withhold information all the time about their products, and the general public gleefully buys them (see the pharmaceutical industry as one example).

 

Actually, it is against the law for a drug company to withold information from the Food and Drug Adminstration that is material to any of its marketed products. Rather than witholding "information all the time", it is a rare event and invariably leads down the road to major fines and often to legal liability.

 

Disclosure may be something frowned upon by poker players, but is unquestionably the ethical standard in US business. Except comics and other unclean collectibles, that is.

[Foolkiller]

By the way, plenty of companies in America withhold information all the time about their products, and the general public gleefully buys them (see the pharmaceutical industry as one example).

 

Actually, it is against the law for a drug company to withold information from the Food and Drug Adminstration that is material to any of its marketed products. Rather than witholding "information all the time", it is a rare event and invariably leads down the road to major fines and often to legal liability.

 

Disclosure may be something frowned upon by poker players, but is unquestionably the ethical standard in US business. Except comics and other unclean collectibles, that is.

 

I disagree Bob -- and from the documents I've seen, it's not so rare an event. Now in terms of what we both consider "material" is what's at issue.

 

You and I totally, totally disagree about what's been disclosed and what isn't in the pharma industry. But this part of the discussion is for PM.

[jbud73]

FK, I read your points and understand them, though I think you were a bit too focused on my last point and I agree with the examples posited, more or less. But just think about that - the comic dealers in question are enacting the same business model as the tobacco industry and the Pharm industry.

 

I also think that my analogy of the XYZ situation to have some merit and here is where I think that the people opposed to the lack of disclosure are not the vocal minority, but rather the educated minority. Its a sad irony, I was actually watching "The Insider" the other day and I thought of the comic book industry

 

As I said initially, its the MINDSET that bothers me and had left me disenchanted. The response when the pressing issue was uncovered and the knowledge of the "loophole" that was being exploited, a term which I think aptly sums up what is currently occuring, proliferated to a wider audience is the thing I take primary issue with.

 

The issue of consensus, or lack thereof, also brings us to the current catch 22 situation. In order for consensus to be achieved, information needs to proliferate through a wider segment of the hobby - however there has been so much resistance and I would argue blatant subterfuge that its hard to see this occuring without a tacit effort on behalf of the collectorate - it's sure not forthcoming from the Cabal, because if they sought to educate and publicize, well then that in of itself is disclosure, something they are not willing to do - and we are back to the crux of the argument.

 

So the initial title of this thread could not be more misleading. Its Much Ado about Everything, if you consider the complexities that are currently underway to exploit the loophole in question and the ethics of disclosure lacking in business transactions by a siginificant section of the elite vendors in this industry.

[Red Hook]

Good post.

[garthgantu]

I can't see Matt Nelson or anyone else providing pressing services offering up a 'guarantee' to re-press a book if it somehow 'reverts' to its pre-pressed state. All this does is plant the seed of doubt in current/prospective customers' minds that the pressing service in question is not good enough and must provide 'guarantees/warranties' in case its work doesn't meet expected standards. I don't think we'll see such a guarantee until there's an actual 'trend' to point to where this 'reverting' is happening.

 

I will not buy a book I know has been pressed, for several reasons:

- I can't know for sure what condition the book was in prior to the pressing, how much pressing was required etc. (And without future knowledge of how pressing will affect a book 10 or 20 years from now, I'm hesitant to pay FMV for such books)

 

- I don't relish the prospect of paying a premium for a book that has been "brought back" to its previous state of condition. I would strongly prefer to buy that book in the higher grade sans pressing.

 

- I believe we've only seen the tip of the iceberg where pressing and cleaning are concerned....I anticipate that in 5 or 10 years, many, many more books will have been pressed and cleaned to attain higher grades, which in turn will have an adverse affect on value. While I don't really look at my comics as a true investment along the same lines as a 401K, I have to consider the sizable amount of $ I've spent and hope to recoup that in future. Unless the demand for say, Little Lulu 33 in VF or better rises along with the supply, I envision prices dropping because of the number of pressed books attaining high grades.

 

- I just don't see the need...one of the things that makes collecting comics fun is knowing you have one of only xx copies of a book in 'high grade'... sure, additional copies can and almost certainly will surface as collections are sold, attics are scoured, etc. - but that kind of increase in supply is natural while pressing books into high grade is artificial. Supporting the "clean and press trend" by purchasing from known suppliers of cleaned and pressed books just seems like the wrong thing for me, personally, to do.

 

I do believe that the majority - not all, but more than half - of the board regulars are swayed by their 'investments'...whether they consciously acknowledge this or not. I think that once some of the "pro pressing/cleaning" camp see their "2nd highest graded" copy of ASM #2 or FF #5 drop to "9th highest graded" they will start to have more concerns about how pressing and cleaning are affecting the market. But I think by then the genie will be entirely out of the bottle and it will be too late to do much of anything about it.