Huge concern with the current mindset of collecting...!

[Shield]

You guys, help me understand something. I was looking at the latest listings in the golden age ('course!) and noticed an All-Star #8 up for sale. It has what I condsider to be a reasonable "buy it now", even though the book is restored.

 

ALL STAR 8 Auction

 

So, out of curiousity, I hopped on Heritage's site to see what completed All-Star #8's have fetched. I came across a 'Blue Labeled' Fine + 6.5 that sold for a whopping $6,325...with SLIGHTLY BRITTLE PAGES.

 

What the hell is wrong with collecting today? I would way rather have this nice looking restored copy with off-white pages than a book that is in an advanced state of decomposition! Wouldn't you? Is all that money worth throwing away just so we can beat our chest and say "I have an unrestored All-Star #8" even though it's turning to dust as we speak? Are we not trying to preserve these books, and keep original copies around for years to come?

 

Which leads me to my 2nd point - Why is regular scotch tape placed on a book NOT considered restoration, yet acid-free safe archival tape is? The first will ultimately eat through and destroy the paper; the latte will preserve the book and prevent further damage, and can be safely removed.

 

We need to take a step back here and really think about the decisions we make in purchasing. This is NOT a "Hey, buy restored!" thread, but more of a "ego check". If we are truly interested in preserving these books, why are we so hung up on getting the BLUE LABELED copies even with SLIGHTLY BRITTLE PAGES? I just don't understand this at all...

 

 

I know a few of you will tell me about the investment potential, and I understand that for speculators, but c'mon. $6500 for 6.5 SLIGHTLY BRITTLE, or $1750 for a restored with good paper? In a perfect world the prices would be just the opposite, as that restored copy will be here long after the brittle book has turned to dust....

 

 

[NoImSpartacus]

Hello Shield,

I totally understand how you feel. I find it very funny that in other collecting areas that I enjoy such as medals, japanese swords, daggers, etc. all allow for restoration. Yet in each of their own realms each collectible area has its owe problems. For example. In collecting daggers- you "cant" remove one part of one dagger and move it to another even though they are the same type of dagger. An expert can tell and we call it then, a Parts dagger. In collecting Japanese swords one "Can" move the blade from one sword to another cause its the blade that is important and not all the rest of the sword such as the crossguard, scabbard, etc.. ( The extra parts are all collectibles in themselves). Medals can be restored with enamel or replaced catches.

Yet, comics just have not gotten there yet with restoration acceptance. Maybe they are just getting started. After all, a number of us are asking ourselves the same question you are. Maybe as the hobby continues to grow the thinking regarding restored books will change. One thing I have noticed in the dagger, swords, and medals market is that prices have gotten so high that the way around it is for people to "really specialize". We are seeing this in the comic market more and more. More now than ever. Price variants, last copies, etc. Perhaps eventually retored books will come more into play as well. They do have there place.

 

I rated you 5 stars.

[Shield]

Hello Shield,

I totally understand how you feel. I find it very funny that in other collecting areas that I enjoy such as medals, japanese swords, daggers, etc. all allow for restoration. Yet in each of their own realms each collectible area has its owe problems. For example. In collecting daggers- you "cant" remove one part of one dagger and move it to another even though they are the same type of dagger. An expert can tell and we call it then, a Parts dagger. In collecting Japanese swords one "Can" move the blade from one sword to another cause its the blade that is important and not all the rest of the sword such as the crossguard, scabbard, etc.. ( The extra parts are all collectibles in themselves). Medals can be restored with enamel or replaced catches.

Yet, comics just have not gotten there yet with restoration acceptance. Maybe they are just getting started. After all, a number of us are asking ourselves the same question you are. Maybe as the hobby continues to grow the thinking regarding restored books will change. One thing I have noticed in the dagger, swords, and medals market is that prices have gotten so high that the way around it is for people to "really specialize". We are seeing this in the comic market more and more. More now than ever. Price variants, last copies, etc. Perhaps eventually retored books will come more into play as well. They do have there place.

 

I rated you 5 stars.

 

Thanks for the stars. My intentions aren't to get a thread going over Restored vs. Unrestored as there are things about some restored copies that I don't like either; like repainting and treating paper.

 

Again, here's the crux of my point. We all strive for Blue Label books, but to what end? Is a "slightly brittle copy", even blue labeled, really better than a slightly restored copy with nice, off-white supple paper?

 

No one on this planet will convince me that it is...

 

Grab a brittle book and read it, and you'll know why.

[justiceleaguer]

You guys, help me understand something. I was looking at the latest listings in the golden age ('course!) and noticed an All-Star #8 up for sale. It has what I condsider to be a reasonable "buy it now", even though the book is restored.

 

ALL STAR 8 Auction

 

So, out of curiousity, I hopped on Heritage's site to see what completed All-Star #8's have fetched. I came across a 'Blue Labeled' Fine + 6.5 that sold for a whopping $6,325...with SLIGHTLY BRITTLE PAGES.

 

What the hell is wrong with collecting today? I would way rather have this nice looking restored copy with off-white pages than a book that is in an advanced state of decomposition! Wouldn't you? Is all that money worth throwing away just so we can beat our chest and say "I have an unrestored All-Star #8" even though it's turning to dust as we speak? Are we not trying to preserve these books, and keep original copies around for years to come?

 

Which leads me to my 2nd point - Why is regular scotch tape placed on a book NOT considered restoration, yet acid-free safe archival tape is? The first will ultimately eat through and destroy the paper; the latte will preserve the book and prevent further damage, and can be safely removed.

 

We need to take a step back here and really think about the decisions we make in purchasing. This is NOT a "Hey, buy restored!" thread, but more of a "ego check". If we are truly interested in preserving these books, why are we so hung up on getting the BLUE LABELED copies even with SLIGHTLY BRITTLE PAGES? I just don't understand this at all...

 

 

I know a few of you will tell me about the investment potential, and I understand that for speculators, but c'mon. $6500 for 6.5 SLIGHTLY BRITTLE, or $1750 for a restored with good paper? In a perfect world the prices would be just the opposite, as that restored copy will be here long after the brittle book has turned to dust....

 

 

 

 

Shield, you are a true collector. I completely agree with your sentiments regarding restored books. Those who flip will undoutebely disagree with you, but for those of us out there who choose to collect for the purpose of actually reading and keeping our books, isnt restored actually a much cheaper alternative to completing a run? Hey, as far as im concerned, it wouldnt bother me to try and collect an entire run of just restored books. Saves money plus you have the book.

 

Sal

 

[buttock]

I usually just buy what I like, no hard fast rules. If a book is acceptable - restored or no - I'll take it. That said, I wouldn't buy a brittle book, the paper is the single most important quality in a book to me as it indicates the overall "health' of the book. And that All Star 8 is a piece of junk. It looks like the entire cover was recreated with crayons and the pages are so engorged from bleaching & cleaning they don't fit the cover anymore.

Shield, collecting MLJs you're in a similar boat as me (I go for Centaurs). You take what you can get because you might not see another copy for 10 years. I laugh when people talk about how scarce Timelys are. In their case, you can be a little more selective.

As far as tape goes, go figure. I plan on having tape removed from a couple of my books for future preservation's sake - is that restoration? You can guarantee that if I tried to sell the books it will be to the buyer.

[PovertyRow]

Shield, everything you said is a crock!

 

Just kidding! Everything you said is spot on. This topic comes up often here and is always interesting.

 

As far as scotch tape goes, it is probably not considered restoration because the perception is it was done by collectors for many years, some even applying scotch tape to new books "in the old days" to reinforce them andf insure they will last longer (hey! Not MY idea!) whereas archival tape is - well - a tool of the restorer hence the book is restored even though the tape will not do damage. Does this make any logical sense? Not a bit but it is what we currently have.

 

As regards the slightly brittle paper - brittle paper is the beginning of the end for a book. If there is no restoration notes on it it may well have not seen a restorer, which means no de-acidifcation was done and the condition may well gradually deteriorate further.

 

If you peruse the boards you will often see me protesting the use of the blue/purple/green labels. My feeling has always been a single color label with notations as to condition, qualifications and restoration. This would, in my opinion, reduce the instant kiss-of-death the purple label tends to get, even if there is only a "tiny amount of color touch on the cover".

 

I think, eventually, and it will take a few years, restoration will be seen in its proper light. Right now, though - I consider them bargains and am certainly not alone here on the boards.

[DvdSkelton-migration]

I agree with PovertyRow... scoop em up now!

 

I'm a weird collector in that I don't care too much about the Blue Label or Purple Label, in fact some of my best books are unslabbed. This whole CGC thing leaves me cold sometimes. I'm in this hobby because of my love for the books - the art, the stories and the fun of collecting. That's not to say I don't love my Gaines File EC's, but I enjoy my leather bound copies of SuspenseStories almost as much and everyone tells me that they're not worth very much... well ... they're worth a lot to me!!! There is something to be said for being able to hold the books in your hands and enjoy reading 50+ year old comics.

 

As to your post about Restored, it's been said many times in this forum, but truly the best advice in this hobby is to buy what you like! You'll never be disappointed if you love the book.

 

PS... Would someone give me a freaking star. I'm fading away faster than the invisible man!

[NoImSpartacus]

Gave you 5 stars. I dont know what it is with this star thing? I keep going up to 3 and then back to 2. I dont consider stars that important but I dont understand why I keep going backwards? I really enjoy buying golden age. The only problem seems to be that there is not much room for error or making a mistake, otherwise one loses big bucks.

[PovertyRow]

I keep going up to 3 and then back to 2. I dont consider stars that important but I dont understand why I keep going backwards?

 

Haters! The world is filled with them! Say one thing they don;t like and BANG - they one-star you! Some even make shill accounts just to 1-star you. Sick sick people. Sick I tell you. Sicker than the thin sheen of sweat that graces a fevered brow. Sick!

 

PS - you back to 3 - at least for now

[bitman2]

To the collector who loves the books for what they are "restored books have there place" How many could afford a Fine or above All Star 8? In todays Mkt you can get a Nice restored (good looking , Nice pages for a fraction of the cost.) To the True collector (the backbone of the mkt by the way) these books DO have their place.(note: there are some "True collectors who can afford the NM Unrestored copy) There is kind of an Anology to be made in this too. 25 years from now The Fine + will probably be dust along with the Flipper/Speculator( long gone from the hobby) The True collector will still be here with his Fine+ Restored copy.

 

Note to buttock: If that All Star 8 is a piece of Junk to you. Please send me all the Like Junk you have. that kind of Junk is Definitely MY kind of Treasure.

 

Note to povertyrow. You hit the nail on the head with the CGC labeling scheme. I think some at CGC have realized too late the effect this has had on restored books and also on submisssions(especially in Golden Age Books where a greater percentage of the books have had at least minor work.)

Again just my 2 cents worth.

[buttock]

Bitman, I can send you a list of "junk" that no-one will touch with a 10 foot pole if you really want to pony up the cash. $200 for the lot. I had an All Star 8 in FR/GD that I would take every time over that book. Half the cover isn't original. If you've ever seen a copy up close, it looks nothing like that.

I'll await your check.

[sfilosa]

I think the main problem with the book was that it was, EXTENSIVE RESTORATION.

 

For all you know (based on the information provided) the book was a Fair book, with nice pages. Then a huge amount of the cover is recreated.

 

To me Extensive means rebuilt and I'm (at this point) not interested in rebuilt books.

 

If the restoration had been Slight, I think this book would have sold for a lot more.

 

I also have made the point the I don't like the different colored labels and don't like even more that CGC doesn't try to estimate the grade before restoration. This way there would be a CLEARER distinction been a "small color touch" or "small tear seal" that probably had NO EFFECT on the current grade and a Rebuilt book that was Fair and is now Very Fine.

 

 

[Shield]

I'm still scratching my head, wondering how a book can have slightly brittle pages and a chip out of the bottom right, and still get a Fine + 6.5. This is of course referring to the Heritage book.

 

I also wholeheartedly agree that there shouldn't be different labels, just a comment field that lists any restoration or anything done to the book after it left the presses. Including but not limited to: arrival dates, tape, store stamps, tear seals, color touches, etc.

 

Remember: If you write on the cover in pen it's unrestored, but if you took a pen and tried to fill in a portion of the cover to match the original it's restored. Oh yeah some books can have a slight amount of glue or color touch and still get the Blue Label. Oh, and if you're a celebrity and buy a bunch of books and get them graded, you can get your name put on the label as well. For me that last point really turned me off about CGC...I could see "From the collection of William Gaines" or "From the collection of Carl Barks" as these people helped create comics, but for Nicholas "Coppolla" Cage ? Remind me again how he had any effect on the creation of comics?

 

Sorry guys...bitter Monday morning...

[bitman2]

Your Right Shield, No way a book with Pages anywhere near brittle pages gets a Fine+. (unless of course it is submitted by Heritage)

[Shield]

I also understand the concept of restoration being 'an attempt to make something structurally or visually appear as orginal'.

 

So, why isn't a taped (insert favorite .99 cent tape here) spine considered restoration? Isn't that an attempt to make it structurally as original? I hear the response as "Well, that's how they did it back in the day". That's unacceptable. They also trimmed books to find into hardbound volumes as well. Take one of those out; it'd come back as restored "TRIMMED".

 

 

You know, I'm not hearing as much valid responses about my points as I'd like; I'd love for someone to explain these things to me, especially the Fine + Slightly Brittle book....

 

[sfilosa]

Quite simply, I don't think that CGC takes the pages into consideration much when they grade the book. I guess they believe the grade stands by itself and the page quality stands by itself.

 

Personally, I think taking into the effect of the pages is the toughest part of grading. Say you have a NM front and back cover, but a few of the pages have chips out of them (not brittle pages but small chips not related to the printing process). What's the grade? I don't know.

 

You would hate to get a Qualified NM (with a few small pieces out of several interior pages). Do you give it a Fine, Very Fine, Very Fine/Near Mint? I just don't know.

 

Tough question to answer.

 

[NoImSpartacus]

Hello Shield,

I would respond to you regarding your post but I dont believe I am qualified in restoration knowledge. That may be part of the problem for all of us. Unless we have CGC guidelines that fit each senario THAT Makes some sense, its hard to come up with an explaination. Like they say. In one instance its restoration. In another its not. Not enough Concrete rules to be able to give more than just an opinion. I would agree with you however. But because of lack of concrete rules as yet unwritten as to Exactly what constitutes restoration and how the market percieves it, I would not be able to tell if my opinion would be right. We all seem to be fishing at this poiint. More needs to be written guidelines wise.

[bitman2]

That Allstar 8 has been discussed before. Basically a book with slightly Brittle SHOULD NOT grade A Fine+ by Anyones Grading Definitions (Overstreet etc)But when you submit as many books as Heritage does you may catch a break.( The problem here was some bright lightbulb at CGC actually put the Brittle distinction on the label) How many books do you think have been submitted to CGC(by Heritage) since then with the same quality paper that do not have that notation? More than 1 I'm guessing.

 

As to the tape issue Makes no sense at all, But it is a good way to turn a Fair completety Spine Split book into an unrestored VG.( make sure you use scotch tape, we wouldnt want to use a type of tape which DOESNT damage the book)) Maybe someday the Powers that be will address this issue.

[NoImSpartacus]

I figured maybe we can address the issue direct with a post. I put a post up on the general comics board. Lets get and idea of types of opinions over the next day or two. I agree with you guys in that sometimes the guideline logic doesnt make much sense. If thats the case, its time to get enough people to change it.

[Timely]

To me a book with scotch tape on it should be considered "Amature Restoration" which CGC has a way to tell the difference between amature and professional on their labels. But no one seems to think tape is a big deal.

 

The argument then becomes, what if a piece of tape accidentally gets stuck to the comic, and was not put there to repair or mend a tear, is that considered restoration? Who knows for sure!?!

 

Timely