Another buy the book and not the CGC label thread.

[Tomega]

Repeatedly I am amazed at how CGC can grade some comics as high grade with little of no consideration of manufacturing defects. I know it has been re-hashed several times but does anybody know at what point does CGC take into consideration of manfacturing defects. Look at this X-men :

 

X-men 92

 

I have seen this comic have the same red discoloration many times so I assume it is a printer error and not the scan. Look at the back and front covers - it has red all over the place and is butt ugly. How can this be really considered a 9.4? Af far as I am concerned it is no different then taking a red magic marker and smearing it all ove the place. It is funny that the seller states that you would be hard pressed to find a better specimen and it is even funnier that he has tried several times to un-load this issue at a ridiculous price. Well, as supa said in another thread " buy the book, not the label."

 

Any thoughts?

 

Tom

[Kevin76]

It's called "Scum" it happens when the ink is too high or there ink in the water fountains,you can usually get rid of it if you lower the ink,scap underneathe the water ball or simply squirt some plate cleaner on the water brush.Or it could be the Etch tote ran out,causing it to scum up since it's not cleaning up the plates,When it scums up like this you usually have to do a few things to get rid of it if taking the ink down doesn't work Kevin

[Tomega]

It's called "Scum" it happens when the ink is too high or there ink in the water fountains,you can usually get rid of it if you lower the ink,scap underneathe the water ball or simply squirt some plate cleaner on the water brush.Or it could be the Etch tote ran out,causing it to scum up since it's not cleaning up the plates,When it scums up like this you usually have to do a few things to get rid of it if taking the ink down doesn't work Kevin

 

Why should it still rate a 9.4 though? I just cannot see it. Imagine this on your ASM 14, would you still consider it worth as much? I think that CGC should either lower the grade or give it a qualified grade.

[DiceX]

I have a bronze ASM that is nearly flawless that graded 9.4.

Not a stress or bend.

There is a small bindery tear in the tip of one corner.

 

This book gets a 9.4 and it looks like it was used to apply makeup to Tammy Faye Baker?

Hmmm

[Kevin76]

It's called "Scum" it happens when the ink is too high or there ink in the water fountains,you can usually get rid of it if you lower the ink,scap underneathe the water ball or simply squirt some plate cleaner on the water brush.Or it could be the Etch tote ran out,causing it to scum up since it's not cleaning up the plates,When it scums up like this you usually have to do a few things to get rid of it if taking the ink down doesn't work Kevin

 

Why should it still rate a 9.4 though? I just cannot see it. Imagine this on your ASM 14, would you still consider it worth as much? I think that CGC should either lower the grade or give it a qualified grade.

 

i don't know bro...PM Steve Borock

[supapimp]

this has been talked about in many of threads, CGC doesn't downgrade on printing defects(e.g. mis cut, over/underwrap, printers crease, distrubution ink, etc.).

[fantastic_four]

I assume this defect is not ink on the cover, but it's the advertisements on the interior cover showing through to the front.

 

I used to rail on translucency all the time in these forums, but there was a thread a while back that demonstrated that the white microchamber paper CGC places inside the front and the back cover makes translucency on some books look a lot worse than it actually is. Banner showed scans of an X-Men #10 with no white paper inside the front cover, with white paper there, and with black paper there, and the book definitely looked less translucent with no paper and with black paper.

 

I think this kind of translucency is quite ugly just as you do, but due to the white microchamber paper coupled with the possible enhancement of its severity by the bright light scanners roll across whatever they scan, it's quite difficult to determine for most books just how severe translucency really is. Steve Borock said he'd look into using grey microchamber paper instead of white, but I don't know if he ever got anywhere with it.

[Aman619]

It's called "Scum" it happens when the ink is too high or there ink in the water fountains,you can usually get rid of it if you lower the ink,scap underneathe the water ball or simply squirt some plate cleaner on the water brush.Or it could be the Etch tote ran out,causing it to scum up since it's not cleaning up the plates,When it scums up like this you usually have to do a few things to get rid of it if taking the ink down doesn't work Kevin

 

say whaaaa???

[Ares]

It's called "Scum" it happens when the ink is too high or there ink in the water fountains,you can usually get rid of it if you lower the ink,scap underneathe the water ball or simply squirt some plate cleaner on the water brush.Or it could be the Etch tote ran out,causing it to scum up since it's not cleaning up the plates,When it scums up like this you usually have to do a few things to get rid of it if taking the ink down doesn't work Kevin

Can I get than in english please?

[Tomega]

It's called "Scum" it happens when the ink is too high or there ink in the water fountains,you can usually get rid of it if you lower the ink,scap underneathe the water ball or simply squirt some plate cleaner on the water brush.Or it could be the Etch tote ran out,causing it to scum up since it's not cleaning up the plates,When it scums up like this you usually have to do a few things to get rid of it if taking the ink down doesn't work Kevin

Can I get than in english please?

 

In my interpretation and in laymans terms - incorrect, improper amount or layer of ink on plates causing print in areas that was not intended.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Tomega]

I assume this defect is not ink on the cover, but it's the advertisements on the interior cover showing through to the front.

 

I used to rail on translucency all the time in these forums, but there was a thread a while back that demonstrated that the white microchamber paper CGC places inside the front and the back cover makes translucency on some books look a lot worse than it actually is. Banner showed scans of an X-Men #10 with no white paper inside the front cover, with white paper there, and with black paper there, and the book definitely looked less translucent with no paper and with black paper.

 

I think this kind of translucency is quite ugly just as you do, but due to the white microchamber paper coupled with the possible enhancement of its severity by the bright light scanners roll across whatever they scan, it's quite difficult to determine for most books just how severe translucency really is. Steve Borock said he'd look into using grey microchamber paper instead of white, but I don't know if he ever got anywhere with it.

 

Actually, it is not exactly transluceny and it does not appear to what Kevin thought it was either. I decided to pull my issues and sure enough, the same discoloration is there on every one of them. Strangley enough, it appears to be some sort of transferrance from the interior pages ink and has nothing to do with the covers themselves. Anything that was written in orange/red transferred to the interior and exterior of the back and front covers. For instance, on the first page you find the title "Red Raven, Red Raven...!", the credits box, Angels pants, and Marvel Girl's hair are all the same color and it transferred heavily onto and through the front cover. It is definitely not transluceny of the color transfer showing through, I put several sheets of different paper and it does not change it ( also you can tell when you have it in hand.) On the back cover it is the same thing there are several frames that transferred the color onto and through the paper. It is almost like the ink was wet and soaked through ( even though it is not.) Interestingly enough, on the back and front covers, there was no transfers from the red colors of Red Raven or Evil Knievel through the cover to the interior. I wonder if this because of a different type of ink or a combination of factors.

 

Tom

[Aman619]

perhps the cover stock was glossier on the outside...and the inside allowed the ink to seep through. Why one ink and not another seeped thru may be better explained by someone with actual onpress printing experience...

[Kevin76]

perhps the cover stock was glossier on the outside...and the inside allowed the ink to seep through. Why one ink and not another seeped thru may be better explained by someone with actual onpress printing experience...

 

your way off...already explained why that red is there on the book.

[Kevin76]

I assume this defect is not ink on the cover, but it's the advertisements on the interior cover showing through to the front.

 

Nope..it's scumming up in the red on page 1..Turn up the water someone!

[Kevin76]

I assume this defect is not ink on the cover, but it's the advertisements on the interior cover showing through to the front.

 

I used to rail on translucency all the time in these forums, but there was a thread a while back that demonstrated that the white microchamber paper CGC places inside the front and the back cover makes translucency on some books look a lot worse than it actually is. Banner showed scans of an X-Men #10 with no white paper inside the front cover, with white paper there, and with black paper there, and the book definitely looked less translucent with no paper and with black paper.

 

I think this kind of translucency is quite ugly just as you do, but due to the white microchamber paper coupled with the possible enhancement of its severity by the bright light scanners roll across whatever they scan, it's quite difficult to determine for most books just how severe translucency really is. Steve Borock said he'd look into using grey microchamber paper instead of white, but I don't know if he ever got anywhere with it.

 

Actually, it is not exactly transluceny and it does not appear to what Kevin thought it was either. I decided to pull my issues and sure enough, the same discoloration is there on every one of them. Strangley enough, it appears to be some sort of transferrance from the interior pages ink and has nothing to do with the covers themselves. Anything that was written in orange/red transferred to the interior and exterior of the back and front covers. For instance, on the first page you find the title "Red Raven, Red Raven...!", the credits box, Angels pants, and Marvel Girl's hair are all the same color and it transferred heavily onto and through the front cover. It is definitely not transluceny of the color transfer showing through, I put several sheets of different paper and it does not change it ( also you can tell when you have it in hand.) On the back cover it is the same thing there are several frames that transferred the color onto and through the paper. It is almost like the ink was wet and soaked through ( even though it is not.) Interestingly enough, on the back and front covers, there was no transfers from the red colors of Red Raven or Evil Knievel through the cover to the interior. I wonder if this because of a different type of ink or a combination of factors.

 

Tom

 

Well if the ink is on the first page when you open it, and it's also on the interior cover the same image,then it was most likey printed on a cold set press like newspapers use,most of the books today are printed on heatset and sheetfed presses. kevin

[Tomega]

I assume this defect is not ink on the cover, but it's the advertisements on the interior cover showing through to the front.

 

I used to rail on translucency all the time in these forums, but there was a thread a while back that demonstrated that the white microchamber paper CGC places inside the front and the back cover makes translucency on some books look a lot worse than it actually is. Banner showed scans of an X-Men #10 with no white paper inside the front cover, with white paper there, and with black paper there, and the book definitely looked less translucent with no paper and with black paper.

 

I think this kind of translucency is quite ugly just as you do, but due to the white microchamber paper coupled with the possible enhancement of its severity by the bright light scanners roll across whatever they scan, it's quite difficult to determine for most books just how severe translucency really is. Steve Borock said he'd look into using grey microchamber paper instead of white, but I don't know if he ever got anywhere with it.

 

Actually, it is not exactly transluceny and it does not appear to what Kevin thought it was either. I decided to pull my issues and sure enough, the same discoloration is there on every one of them. Strangley enough, it appears to be some sort of transferrance from the interior pages ink and has nothing to do with the covers themselves. Anything that was written in orange/red transferred to the interior and exterior of the back and front covers. For instance, on the first page you find the title "Red Raven, Red Raven...!", the credits box, Angels pants, and Marvel Girl's hair are all the same color and it transferred heavily onto and through the front cover. It is definitely not transluceny of the color transfer showing through, I put several sheets of different paper and it does not change it ( also you can tell when you have it in hand.) On the back cover it is the same thing there are several frames that transferred the color onto and through the paper. It is almost like the ink was wet and soaked through ( even though it is not.) Interestingly enough, on the back and front covers, there was no transfers from the red colors of Red Raven or Evil Knievel through the cover to the interior. I wonder if this because of a different type of ink or a combination of factors.

 

Tom

 

Well if the ink is on the first page when you open it, and it's also on the interior cover the same image,then it was most likey printed on a cold set press like newspapers use,most of the books today are printed on heatset and sheetfed presses. kevin

 

The images on the interior part of the covers are mirrored from the transferring page. I found that a light rub with a tissue seems to discolor a lot more easily then the other colors on the transferring page so you are probably right about cold press but I do not know why MArvel would use that on just the reprint issues of X-men.

Tom

[THE_BEYONDER]

this has been talked about in many of threads, CGC doesn't downgrade on printing defects(e.g. mis cut, over/underwrap, printers crease, distrubution ink, etc.).

 

And as we discussed in another thread.....THEY SHOULDN'T. All of these "printer's defects" are VISIBLE, and none of them have anything to do with the "condition" of a comic.

 

"YOU CAN"T JUDGE A BOOK BY IT'S COVER"?

 

Sometimes you can.......

[Aman619]

yeah? Well, you spelled "you're" wrong! so there. Mr. Knowitall!

[Aman619]

I assume this defect is not ink on the cover, but it's the advertisements on the interior cover showing through to the front.

 

I used to rail on translucency all the time in these forums, but there was a thread a while back that demonstrated that the white microchamber paper CGC places inside the front and the back cover makes translucency on some books look a lot worse than it actually is. Banner showed scans of an X-Men #10 with no white paper inside the front cover, with white paper there, and with black paper there, and the book definitely looked less translucent with no paper and with black paper.

 

I think this kind of translucency is quite ugly just as you do, but due to the white microchamber paper coupled with the possible enhancement of its severity by the bright light scanners roll across whatever they scan, it's quite difficult to determine for most books just how severe translucency really is. Steve Borock said he'd look into using grey microchamber paper instead of white, but I don't know if he ever got anywhere with it.

 

Actually, it is not exactly transluceny and it does not appear to what Kevin thought it was either. I decided to pull my issues and sure enough, the same discoloration is there on every one of them. Strangley enough, it appears to be some sort of transferrance from the interior pages ink and has nothing to do with the covers themselves. Anything that was written in orange/red transferred to the interior and exterior of the back and front covers. For instance, on the first page you find the title "Red Raven, Red Raven...!", the credits box, Angels pants, and Marvel Girl's hair are all the same color and it transferred heavily onto and through the front cover. It is definitely not transluceny of the color transfer showing through, I put several sheets of different paper and it does not change it ( also you can tell when you have it in hand.) On the back cover it is the same thing there are several frames that transferred the color onto and through the paper. It is almost like the ink was wet and soaked through ( even though it is not.) Interestingly enough, on the back and front covers, there was no transfers from the red colors of Red Raven or Evil Knievel through the cover to the interior. I wonder if this because of a different type of ink or a combination of factors.

 

Tom

 

Well if the ink is on the first page when you open it, and it's also on the interior cover the same image,then it was most likey printed on a cold set press like newspapers use,most of the books today are printed on heatset and sheetfed presses. kevin

 

Im not following this closely enough..... but interior (newssprint) pages CANT transfer ink onto covers because they were printed hundreds of miles and days apart in those days. By the time the covers met up with the interiors BOTH were well dry.And anyway, Tom, the etch tote ran dry,...cantcha read??

[Tomega]

[quote

Actually, it is not exactly transluceny and it does not appear to what Kevin thought it was either. I decided to pull my issues and sure enough, the same discoloration is there on every one of them. Strangley enough, it appears to be some sort of transferrance from the interior pages ink and has nothing to do with the covers themselves. Anything that was written in orange/red transferred to the interior and exterior of the back and front covers. For instance, on the first page you find the title "Red Raven, Red Raven...!", the credits box, Angels pants, and Marvel Girl's hair are all the same color and it transferred heavily onto and through the front cover. It is definitely not transluceny of the color transfer showing through, I put several sheets of different paper and it does not change it ( also you can tell when you have it in hand.) On the back cover it is the same thing there are several frames that transferred the color onto and through the paper. It is almost like the ink was wet and soaked through ( even though it is not.) Interestingly enough, on the back and front covers, there was no transfers from the red colors of Red Raven or Evil Knievel through the cover to the interior. I wonder if this because of a different type of ink or a combination of factors.

 

Tom

 

 

 

Im not following this closely enough..... but interior (newssprint) pages CANT transfer ink onto covers because they were printed hundreds of miles and days apart in those days. By the time the covers met up with the interiors BOTH were well dry.And anyway, Tom, the etch tote ran dry,...cantcha read??

 

Yeah, I forgot about the etch tote ran dry , what was I thinking?- hehe. Why cannot interior newprints tranfer? I was not referring to any type of wet transfer but most certainly can transfer after it is dry. I'm sure you remember when you were a kid taking silly putty and pressing it into the newspaper funnies to pull an image off ( if you do not remember then either I am much older then you or you are much older then me ) It is kinda the same thing in this case , in comic terms it is called a transfer stain. A transfer stain is ink from the first page rubs off onto the inside covers causing certain portions to appear discolored. Although this is usually a yellow color from the quinone in the ink and usually does not go all the way through the comic. I own 4 copies of this book and 3 of them have the stains. I cannot definitively say that is the cause because some of the facts do not fit ( mainly the red color.) I wonder if It is possible that the quinone/ aniline levels are very high in the red ink and that caused this strange defect. Nahhh, you are right- the etch tote ran dry.

 

Tom