Raw comics

[Aces]

Ah! It's too late to edit my first post!

 

Ok ok... I'll go along with the rest of you.

NSC isn't all that great.

 

Make sure none of you bid on any of their low/mid grade Hulk, Spidy and FF lots next time!

 

I like to get them cheap!

[500Club]

I can't speak for their accuracy in low/mid grades, but factor in a 1-2 point overgrade if bidding on HG stuff.

[Foolkiller]

If you buy raw books... it is sometimes a [!@#%^&^] shoot. You can't really say what you're going to get.

 

The best raw grader I've seen, hands down, is Bob Storms. There's not even a question in my mind about it. I like Ted from Superworld, but as others have noted he can be .2 off a lot of times, and in high grade it counts. He's actually gotten much better in the last two years.

 

Harley Yee (although there were other negs posted about him) grades very well. Not always perfect... but, pretty good. Also like John Hauser for raw books.

 

Gary Platt (a smaller dealer) is an excellent raw grader... really knows his stuff. There are times on the high grade where I think he might be slightly off.

 

Metropolis does an excellent job with raw grading too... but they forgive too many things on 8.5s and 9.0s.

 

Showcase New England's grading is spotty... at best. There have been multiple threads about how this guy's grading is too suspect for me to EVER buy raw from them.

 

Not a big fan of Motor City's grading either. Same with Neatstuff's, although, when I've seen some stuff at shows, it isn't always terribly off.

 

 

[Fan4Fan]

5) I have yet to find a dealer that sells "raw" books that I believe are as strictly graded as CGC. If anyone knows of any, please share with us.

 

 

 

 

From my experience these guys do a pretty good job grading on eBay:

neatstuffcollectibles

Zillaf4 (Lange's sports and comics)

New-England-Showcase (not sure if that's the exact eBay ID)

 

Those above 3 list thousands at a time. Once in a while they overgrade cause of the volume. Eyes get sleepy...

 

gdcomics (Gary Dolgoff Comics)

 

Jim Hauser Comics (spelling? I haven't bought from hin in a while/can't remember eBay ID)

 

jhcomics (Jef Hinds)

 

I just got my first batch from jscomics and they seem all right.

One of the Bronze ASM actually might be a 9.8 as described.

 

My experience contradicts yours for gdcomics. The books I got as F/VF really were that (at best) and no better (contrary to what his site leads you to believe).

 

I've purchased a few books from Jim Hauser at local cons and find his grading to be stricter than guide (if anything), so a very big thumbs up for him.

 

I don't know about neatstuffcollectibles since my low-ball winning bid wasn't honored due to the books being damaged in their warehouse

 

I just returned an order to SuperWorld for being grossly overgraded. VF+ with moisture rippling? VF/NM with 1/8th inch spine chip and browner than cream pages? VF+ with color-breaking crease and 1/8th inch tear? VF+ with staples offset 1/8th inch to back? To their credit, they refunded me both for the books and shipping both ways.

 

Thanks,

Fan4Fan

[Fan4Fan]

5) I have yet to find a dealer that sells "raw" books that I believe are as strictly graded as CGC. If anyone knows of any, please share with us.

 

 

Mr. Jim Payette. I've bought a few books from him. One was a golden age key book that he graded a VG+/Fine; I sent it to CGC and it came back a Fine +. Also, another "Fine" graded by Jim resulted in a CGC VF-.

 

I think he's actually a tad stricter than CGC, and a great guy.

 

Does he have a catalog/web-site? What vintage of comics does he carry?

 

Thanks,

Fan4Fan

[greggy]

5) I have yet to find a dealer that sells "raw" books that I believe are as strictly graded as CGC. If anyone knows of any, please share with us.

 

 

Mr. Jim Payette. I've bought a few books from him. One was a golden age key book that he graded a VG+/Fine; I sent it to CGC and it came back a Fine +. Also, another "Fine" graded by Jim resulted in a CGC VF-.

 

I think he's actually a tad stricter than CGC, and a great guy.

 

Does he have a catalog/web-site? What vintage of comics does he carry?

 

Thanks,

Fan4Fan

 

I don't think that he has a website. His phone number is 603-869-2097 and fax is 603-869-3475. I believe that he is mostly a Golden Age dealer. Here's a link to the scoop feature of him --> James Payette scoop feature

[Fan4Fan]

Ahhh... he's living my dream job!

 

Thanks,

Fan4Fan

[jkrk]

Just arrived home from the the "Spa" and didn't bet a whole lot so The money is still in the wallet. So in the summer a young man's fancy turns to comics. Glanced through the post and saw the tanget many posters went on in reccommending their favorite seller (grader). I could swear many are paid entries.My original point was simple. I am not going to buy a list $2000 comic (raw) on E-Bay or at a convention. The deck is clearly stacked against me. "Tom" can grade a $90 book raw isn't what my post is about. I can grade fairly well myself. The question that comes to mind for me is as follows:

Let's say a dealer grades a book at FVF (value in guide $2000). I believe the book is a F+/FVF (perhaps the sellers grade inflences me a bit). I buy the book @75% of guide (a real steal).

So far I have no confirmation of the grade other than from the "honest" seller. I send the book to CGC and they call it a fine. I show the book to others and they say it was graded too harshly by CGC and probably is a F+. In the meantime I bought a book for $1500 that CGC says is worth maybe $1300 at list. Many posters say I should be content as long as I like the book. I hate when I hear that. All I know is I overpaid for the book. I enjoy buying what I like at a "good price". Is CGC the authority? From the market's point of view? Yes. Would I buy any book based on the label? No. However, I would rather buy a book that I believed CGC undergraded at no higher than the price on the label/guide. The entire transaction is what I look for not just the purchase of the book. Most of us have a budget that we are willing to spend on comics. I would rather buy a book professionally graded that pleases me than play the lottery hoping I graded the book correctly and there is no sign of a restoration that I find too difficult to spot. I can only speak for myself but keep in mind that I never bought a book for more than $150 before CGC existed. I have bought a substantial number of books for $2000 and up since CGC came onstream. The point is that CGC has brought more dollars into the hobby than would have been spent buying raw books. The one risk I'm willing to live with is the possibility that the value of the books go to zero. Even with all my purchases I only have a very very small portion of my net invested the hobby. I like the books and enjoy owning them. I hate getting ripped off by guys telling me CGC is a waste of money and true collectors like the "feel" of the book as they are slipping a restored overgraded copy in my direction.

 

[ninanina]

Just arrived home from the the "Spa" and didn't bet a whole lot so The money is still in the wallet. So in the summer a young man's fancy turns to comics. Glanced through the post and saw the tanget many posters went on in reccommending their favorite seller (grader). I could swear many are paid entries.My original point was simple. I am not going to buy a list $2000 comic (raw) on E-Bay or at a convention. The deck is clearly stacked against me. "Tom" can grade a $90 book raw isn't what my post is about. I can grade fairly well myself. The question that comes to mind for me is as follows:

Let's say a dealer grades a book at FVF (value in guide $2000). I believe the book is a F+/FVF (perhaps the sellers grade inflences me a bit). I buy the book @75% of guide (a real steal).

So far I have no confirmation of the grade other than from the "honest" seller. I send the book to CGC and they call it a fine. I show the book to others and they say it was graded too harshly by CGC and probably is a F+. In the meantime I bought a book for $1500 that CGC says is worth maybe $1300 at list. Many posters say I should be content as long as I like the book. I hate when I hear that. All I know is I overpaid for the book. I enjoy buying what I like at a "good price". Is CGC the authority? From the market's point of view? Yes. Would I buy any book based on the label? No. However, I would rather buy a book that I believed CGC undergraded at no higher than the price on the label/guide. The entire transaction is what I look for not just the purchase of the book. Most of us have a budget that we are willing to spend on comics. I would rather buy a book professionally graded that pleases me than play the lottery hoping I graded the book correctly and there is no sign of a restoration that I find too difficult to spot. I can only speak for myself but keep in mind that I never bought a book for more than $150 before CGC existed. I have bought a substantial number of books for $2000 and up since CGC came onstream. The point is that CGC has brought more dollars into the hobby than would have been spent buying raw books. The one risk I'm willing to live with is the possibility that the value of the books go to zero. Even with all my purchases I only have a very very small portion of my net invested the hobby. I like the books and enjoy owning them. I hate getting ripped off by guys telling me CGC is a waste of money and true collectors like the "feel" of the book as they are slipping a restored overgraded copy in my direction.

 

Just accept the fact that people are in for their own reasons. Their reasons may not be the same as yours, but the fact they collect strengthens the hobby. True collectors are people that collect comics. Doesn't matter why. And if there are people who think you have to "feel" a comic in order to be a true collector, then in my opinion they need to realize their way isn't the only way.

[Aman619]

nobody likes to overpay, but on good stuff its not the end of the world. More often than not for the prime high grade books you DO have to overpay. And as the value increases, you get your money back and then some.

 

For midgrade its tougher. The only solution is to become proficient at grading, and even better, to be able to grade just as CGC will grade the book. Then you can walk away if you cant negotiate the price down to the condition you say it is. Nice thing is, in midgrade, another copy will come along shortly. Not so in high grade.

[sfilosa]

CGC is a savior for high-grade expensive books. I STOPPED collecting because most DEALERS OVERGRADE. PERIOD!!!!!

 

Now I can spend $200 and up on a book and know what I am getting. And even if after seeing the book, and maybe disagreeing with the grade, I can still honestly sell the book at its assigned grade.

 

But, it does surprise me how many books should not be graded that are.

I can buy most VF to VF/NM Silver-Age books CGC'd for the same price people want for them raw.

 

I just won three books from Heritage's Auction last week that were late Silver or early Bronze and the most I paid for one book was $26 (the other two were $20 or less). One was in VF and the other two in VF/NM. If some one handed me those books for free, it would still cost me more to have them graded ($25 each after discounts) then I won them for. Go figure!

 

 

 

[blazingbob]

I respond to this mostly because I continue to see the same arguments about grading that have gone on for the last 30 years, that's right 30 years. Forgive me for defending my fellow dealers but let's discuss one thing that many people overlook. Many Dealers TRAVEL, a book is graded and unless it's dated you would be very hard pressed to tell how long it's been in his box. Besides the fact that some, I'm saying some, people handle high grade comics like they are made of rubber inflicts wear and tear on books. Now some of the names you've mentioned don't leave the house, they have no excuse if the grade is off.

 

A simple judge of a dealers grading is to have him grade it right in front of you. Don't be obnoxious about it, don't try to show him how tight a grader you are. If you disagree than ask him why he feels it's in the grade he gave it. Sometimes we make mistakes, other times the book has been in their stock for years, other times people damage the book. Some of your "strict" dealers will undergrade a 1/4 grade just so that the book isn't returned and to avoid "grading arguments". And for the record many of the High end collectors do nothing more than rant and rave about how tight their grading is when buying and yet go blind when selling.

 

Raw books can be bought but the more disturbing trend is that people price like the book is CGC'd yet it's not even close.

[Kevin76]

Raw books can be bought but the more disturbing trend is that people price like the book is CGC'd yet it's not even close.

 

You mean like :::cough::: cough:: Bechara ::cough:: cough:::

[sfilosa]

Bob:

 

A couple points:

 

1) You seem to be the only dealer that the consensus is that you grade strict and have good customer service. You do not have to defend yourself.

 

2) When discussing dealers grading, I'm only talking about mail-order. If a dealer at a show has a book and they say its NM and I say its only VF/NM, it cost me ZERO dollars to discuss the GRADE and PRICE. But, if I buy a book mail order and I disagree with the grade I can either, 1) not get what I expected or 2) send the book back and have paid shipping cost both ways to own ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.

 

3) For the type of money that is spent on COLORED PIECES OF PAPER, I would expect a dealer to at least relook (regrade) a book when it is sold. Yes, damage can be incurred after the original grading of a book is done. If they then sell the book and look at it again and realize that it doesn't appear to be in the grade they sold it as, THEN NOTIFY THE BUYER, and give him the option of still taking the book or not.

 

Bob, from everything I have read, you are one of the few GOOD DEALERS. While I wouldn't expect you to say which dealers you feel consistantly overgrade, I would love to hear who you think are pretty accurate graders.

[Fan4Fan]

Bob:

 

A couple points:

 

1) You seem to be the only dealer that the consensus is that you grade strict and have good customer service. You do not have to defend yourself.

 

2) When discussing dealers grading, I'm only talking about mail-order. If a dealer at a show has a book and they say its NM and I say its only VF/NM, it cost me ZERO dollars to discuss the GRADE and PRICE. But, if I buy a book mail order and I disagree with the grade I can either, 1) not get what I expected or 2) send the book back and have paid shipping cost both ways to own ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.

 

3) For the type of money that is spent on COLORED PIECES OF PAPER, I would expect a dealer to at least relook (regrade) a book when it is sold. Yes, damage can be incurred after the original grading of a book is done. If they then sell the book and look at it again and realize that it doesn't appear to be in the grade they sold it as, THEN NOTIFY THE BUYER, and give him the option of still taking the book or not.

 

Amen, Brother!

 

Thanks,

Fan4Fan

[blazingbob]

If I told you who I thought good graders are then who would I buy some books from when I need them?

 

It's very hard to give thumbs up and thumbs down on dealers when I have already got the reputation for my rants and raves.

 

I find that in most cases there are very few "undergrader" type dealers. The one's that are very rarely get the stuff that everybody is looking for. Sad, but true.

 

Also, everybody is seeing dollar signs on raw books and runs to get them graded. I tried to buy some really "killer" raw books at this past Wizard show. Offered multiples, didn't matter what I would pay. I wound up buying them after he had them graded at the show, paid a little more but I cherry picked so maybe I saved some money.

 

The high grade clique is also moving towards the CGC market so it's kind of hard to find that elusive book not already graded. As a dealer I find me going back to customers I previously sold books to and attempting to "buy them back". Again, this takes $$$$ since they are emotionally attached.

 

Sadly the phase of finding those undergraded books already in the holder may be a place that people may want to look. There are a lot of beautiful 8.5's and 9.0's out there that are priced the same as high grade raw books. And I'm not saying that based solely on the fact that I have a lot of CGC 8.5's and 9.0's. I think a really sharp eyed person can get the same amount of upgrades from already graded CGC books as he would from buying raw. And I would focus on the pre 65 stuff, not the more common books.

[sfilosa]

If I told you who I thought good graders are then who would I buy some books from when I need them?

 

I hear you there. I didn't expect an actual answers.

 

Sadly the phase of finding those undergraded books already in the holder may be a place that people may want to look. There are a lot of beautiful 8.5's and 9.0's out there that are priced the same as high grade raw books. And I'm not saying that based solely on the fact that I have a lot of CGC 8.5's and 9.0's. I think a really sharp eyed person can get the same amount of upgrades from already graded CGC books as he would from buying raw. And I would focus on the pre 65 stuff, not the more common books.

 

 

I agree, I agree. I definitely have a few books that look to be undergraded. Since, I wasn't planning on selling those at this time, it doesn't make sense to resubmit yet. And they are in the VF to VF/NM category. I'm not hoping that a NM will be a NM+ (that's probably a Cr@p Shoot).

 

Unfortunately, you are more like to be able to determine this at a convention than from a scan on eBay (or another website).

 

Thanks for the advice.

 

 

[blazingbob]

No, it's more like cough, cough, Not really a boston copy, cough, cough

[drbanner]

...cough, cough, Not really a boston copy, cough, cough...

 

Now we know where all the doubles come from...anywhere!

[jonnydouble]

No, it's more like cough, cough, Not really a boston copy, cough, cough

 

Not really a Boston?!!?!!?...say it isn't so.....but,but...he says he has the certificate at home and will mail it to me.......

 

J.D.