Sale pending @ 85k

[Aman619]

I haven a clue what I just said, but I think I used the expression correctly.....

[adamstrange]

I haven a clue what I just said, but I think I used the expression correctly.....

 

correctly used. didn't even have a typo

 

though you were back to normal in that regard with this post

[Aman619]

ouch... : (

[bluechip]

[quote

. One thing that certainly doesn't help, is when people within our own industry, talk down the stuff. -Josh

 

 

 

 

Could not agree more.

 

 

And how often is that the person who talks down the sale of on Action 1 sold for 85K in good -- is the SAME person who tells you five figures is a bargain for a meaningless book just because it's in high grade.

 

Never considered it my business if the Franklin Mint sold people a spider-man pocket knife for an absurd sum of money. But that's because the Franklin Mint never went out of its way to talk down the value of spider-man comics.

 

You want people to sit back and stay silent when they see you sell a nothing book for big money, fine. Happy to do. I'll even applaud your sale. But only so long as you're not out there trying to slam down everything else.

 

I'm happy to see you object to people that "talk down" or "slam down".

 

SAME person who tells you five figures is a bargain for a meaningless book just because it's in high grade

 

they see you sell a nothing book

 

Precisely why I didn't want to, as FFB inquired, name people specifically,

 

And also why I purposely said "a nothing book" instead of naming one that somebody might have a current or recent financial interest in.

 

The people I'm referring to are those who talk down speciific books or specific categories of books.

 

If I'd said that something you or some other person owned or were trying to sell was "a nothing book" then THAT would indulging in the same behavior.

 

And while I have occasionally questioned the value of books that are obscure in content and/or common in number, I have, so far as I can recall, done that only in response to someone who was questioning the value of key low grade and/or restored books, and then only by way of comparison to say that it's flawed to value books more by their condition than by their content or rarity.

[jkrk]

Record sales continue to be reached for comic books - a lot more $50K+ sales have been reached within the last few years then ever before. Prices dealers and collectors would have thought laughable only 5--7 years ago are now realistic and seen as potentially good investments ($21K for a Hulk #181?).

 

1)more $50,000 sales have been recorded in the past 5-7 years. why?? Perhaps the same reason why our $300,000 Co-op's now sell for $750,000 ? And why our million dollar co-ops now sell for 2.5 million? Etc, etc.

 

2)In my decades of experience in the investments field I can honestly say that the quicker an investment rises in price the more bullish the players get. Everyone likes to extrapolate the most recent trends and dream about future prospects (myself included).

 

The reality is, you only need a little bit of "big money" to come in to move this market because the scarcity is certainly here. If the Batman #1 sells for $375,000 and there are only two in 9.0, what will the next one sell for? When someone else wants one, and none are on the market to buy, what will the next offer for it be?

 

The truth is one "big money" player can pay any price he wishes to for a book and set a very high water marks in terms of pricing. If a second or third buyer comes along then prices for a given book can really take off. Why can't a Batman 1 sell for 1 miilion? It can. However, if no one else yodels and a high price book must be resold then we might revisit the "parrino effect".

 

 

Probably $500K? $500K is $200K LESS than the cost of a 2 bedroom apartment in Brooklyn Heights, NY. It is not unreachable for many thousands of collectors out there.

 

I'm not sure what this statement means? Are we trying to compare buying a $500,000 Comic to the present cost of a two bedroom apt? We know the two buyers are world's apart. The odds are that the apt buyer is putting down some money and leveraging the balance as a place to live. I assume the comic buyer is paying cash he doesn't need.

 

One thing that certainly doesn't help, is when people within our own industry, talk down the stuff. That said, even with the naysayers, the momentum is there. CGC did wonders, the Geppi Museum is great, the movies are great, the creators are making bucks and getting respect, the comic art is moving up by leaps and bounds. It is looking good and the best of the best is close to breaking through to the other side. Soup cans are in the Metropolitan museum of art and so are some baseball cards. At some point, select comics and comic art will get there, and when it does, there will be a lot of people looking back and saying, "I should have bought that," "I should have bought that." -Josh

 

 

Does anyone really care what bulls or bears in the industry say about the future of comic pricing as if some really know? My perspective comtinues to be that as long as liquidity is in abundance all collectables will prosper to some effect. I suspect that when a great deal of money is made easily in business, collectables outperform many other investments. However, when an economy turns downward the reverse also becomes true. In such times food, shelter and clothing might take precedence over comics. Alas, who knows the future as to when a turndown will occur? Perhaps we will continue to see a bull market in comic pricing for a lomg time as we wait for the museums to bid against one another in order to showcase comics as true historical artwork? Let us hope.

[FFB]

And how often is that the person who talks down the sale of on Action 1 sold for 85K in good -- is the SAME person who tells you five figures is a bargain for a meaningless book just because it's in high grade.

 

Can you point to one example of a person doing both of these things?

 

 

While I've clipped quotes from time to time that I found interesting or enlightening, I have not made a point of doing that with this type of quote because I didn't think it'd be constructive to single people out to mnke a point. And while I can think of a few people who've said things of that sort repeatedly, I don't see the point in starting a fight or jumping through hoops to find quotes when we have all seen numerous examples of people denigrating the sales figures for low grade gtolden age keys like action1 and detective 27 but far more rarely do you ever see on this board somebody say that a high grade book (any book) has sold for too much.

 

In any search about values on these boards you'll see people applauding sales of little known books or even common books in high grades regardless of how many times guide the sale was, and at the same time (or in relatively concurrent posts) saying that any low grade book regardless of how famous should be purchased if and only if the buyer is not considering it an investment.

 

On this very thread you see people decrying the sale of a low grade Action 1 and implying the seller was overly anxious to pay double guide for a book-- even though the book sells for mulitples of guide and even (though the guide's value hasn't doubled iin more than ten years, so to double now would scarcely be equivalent to a ten percent annual increase over the past ten years.

 

I think we've all seen the big keys go fo rmuch more than guide and increase steadily in every way except in the guide. So when people keep insisting that high grade antyhing is an investment yet low grade action 1s and detective 27s et al. are somehow not an investment it seems at best, way off the mark.

 

There is only one comment in this thread that I saw that has anything to do with the Action #1 CGC 2.0 sale being at an aggressive price, and that is when someone on page 1 said "I guess someone wanted an Action 1 sooo bad." If that is what "decrying" really means, then I guess I need a new dictionary.

[adamstrange]

[quote

. One thing that certainly doesn't help, is when people within our own industry, talk down the stuff. -Josh

 

 

 

 

Could not agree more.

 

 

And how often is that the person who talks down the sale of on Action 1 sold for 85K in good -- is the SAME person who tells you five figures is a bargain for a meaningless book just because it's in high grade.

 

Never considered it my business if the Franklin Mint sold people a spider-man pocket knife for an absurd sum of money. But that's because the Franklin Mint never went out of its way to talk down the value of spider-man comics.

 

You want people to sit back and stay silent when they see you sell a nothing book for big money, fine. Happy to do. I'll even applaud your sale. But only so long as you're not out there trying to slam down everything else.

 

I'm happy to see you object to people that "talk down" or "slam down".

 

SAME person who tells you five figures is a bargain for a meaningless book just because it's in high grade

 

they see you sell a nothing book

 

Precisely why I didn't want to, as FFB inquired, name people specifically,

 

And also why I purposely said "a nothing book" instead of naming one that somebody might have a current or recent financial interest in.

 

The people I'm referring to are those who talk down speciific books or specific categories of books.

 

If I'd said that something you or some other person owned or were trying to sell was "a nothing book" then THAT would indulging in the same behavior.

 

And while I have occasionally questioned the value of books that are obscure in content and/or common in number, I have, so far as I can recall, done that only in response to someone who was questioning the value of key low grade and/or restored books, and then only by way of comparison to say that it's flawed to value books more by their condition than by their content or rarity.

 

I don't know of a trully "nothing" or "meaningless" comic book, including the Spiderman 68 or whatever it was that sold for enormous multiple. There are simply books that have less meaning to fewer people. Nor is there any absolute rule that simply because a comic, or any other artifact for that matter, has less meaning to fewer people that it must therefore be of less value. Nor will there ever be universal agreement about what the importance of a particular book is. Mad Comics, for example, may have had a far more pervasive societal influence then even Action 1.

 

Value for a comic is based on what people will pay. In and of itself it produces no revenue stream whose Present Value can be calculated. You are confusing what you think people should choose to value over what people actually value. I'm pretty certain that if we lined up the books you thought had value we would find that they are a drop a bucket in the marketplace of collectible comics. That, by the way, is true of the books that I trully love. It doesn't, however, bother me that literally tens of thousands of collectors of comics have a completely different viewpoint than me because if they thought like me, then the comics I want would be out of my price range.

[tth2]

Record sales continue to be reached for comic books - a lot more $50K+ sales have been reached within the last few years then ever before. Prices dealers and collectors would have thought laughable only 5--7 years ago are now realistic and seen as potentially good investments ($21K for a Hulk #181?).

 

1)more $50,000 sales have been recorded in the past 5-7 years. why?? Perhaps the same reason why our $300,000 Co-op's now sell for $750,000 ? And why our million dollar co-ops now sell for 2.5 million? Etc, etc.

 

2)In my decades of experience in the investments field I can honestly say that the quicker an investment rises in price the more bullish the players get. Everyone likes to extrapolate the most recent trends and dream about future prospects (myself included).

Well said.

[bluechip]

[quote

. One thing that certainly doesn't help, is when people within our own industry, talk down the stuff. -Josh

 

 

 

 

Could not agree more.

 

 

And how often is that the person who talks down the sale of on Action 1 sold for 85K in good -- is the SAME person who tells you five figures is a bargain for a meaningless book just because it's in high grade.

 

Never considered it my business if the Franklin Mint sold people a spider-man pocket knife for an absurd sum of money. But that's because the Franklin Mint never went out of its way to talk down the value of spider-man comics.

 

You want people to sit back and stay silent when they see you sell a nothing book for big money, fine. Happy to do. I'll even applaud your sale. But only so long as you're not out there trying to slam down everything else.

 

I'm happy to see you object to people that "talk down" or "slam down".

 

SAME person who tells you five figures is a bargain for a meaningless book just because it's in high grade

 

they see you sell a nothing book

 

Precisely why I didn't want to, as FFB inquired, name people specifically,

 

And also why I purposely said "a nothing book" instead of naming one that somebody might have a current or recent financial interest in.

 

The people I'm referring to are those who talk down speciific books or specific categories of books.

 

If I'd said that something you or some other person owned or were trying to sell was "a nothing book" then THAT would indulging in the same behavior.

 

And while I have occasionally questioned the value of books that are obscure in content and/or common in number, I have, so far as I can recall, done that only in response to someone who was questioning the value of key low grade and/or restored books, and then only by way of comparison to say that it's flawed to value books more by their condition than by their content or rarity.

 

I don't know of a trully "nothing" or "meaningless" comic book, including the Spiderman 68 or whatever it was that sold for enormous multiple. There are simply books that have less meaning to fewer people. Nor is there any absolute rule that simply because a comic, or any other artifact for that matter, has less meaning to fewer people that it must therefore be of less value. Nor will there ever be universal agreement about what the importance of a particular book is. Mad Comics, for example, may have had a far more pervasive societal influence then even Action 1.

 

Value for a comic is based on what people will pay. In and of itself it produces no revenue stream whose Present Value can be calculated. You are confusing what you think people should choose to value over what people actually value. I'm pretty certain that if we lined up the books you thought had value we would find that they are a drop a bucket in the marketplace of collectible comics. That, by the way, is true of the books that I trully love. It doesn't, however, bother me that literally tens of thousands of collectors of comics have a completely different viewpoint than me because if they thought like me, then the comics I want would be out of my price range.

 

We are not in disagreement here. When I speak of a book that is "meaningless" I don't mean in collector's minds but in cultural impact, which is the biggest factor in driving the value of collectibles. And even then I'm talking relative to other books. Overall, what I'm saying is that even when I was looking for a particular book, I never said a word to denigrate its value in hopes that would help me achieve it for the price I wanted. But when I see people on this board denigrate low grade and restored keys and in their sig lines say they're looking for low grade or restored copies of key books. Not a big stretch to conclude they may be talking down the value because they want to get em at a price. I've resisted doing that; it never felt necessary to me because I feel comics' values have a long ways to go and al you need to do well is to buy things that are undervalued; no need to make any efforts to keep them artificially undervalued. And, to be fair, the largest single factor in that is the overstreet guide. I know positively that people have paid less than they really thought some of the big keys are worth because they' were cowed by the overstreet guide price. .

 

Itis absolutely correct that when prices rise quickly it is good for markets. But what we see in the comics market is something you don't see in others. In other markets, prices go up and -- generally -- the organization that asserts authority in reporting prices does what it purports to do. It reports the increases. In the past decade, during a big expaneion in prices and perhaps the biggest expansion of public interest in comics -- ever -- the guide has been in some alternate universe, reporting increases well below the rate of iflation and sometimes barely measurable, let alone accurate

[COMICLINK]

 

 

 

Does anyone really care what bulls or bears in the industry say about the future of comic pricing as if some really know? My perspective comtinues to be that as long as liquidity is in abundance all collectables will prosper to some effect. I suspect that when a great deal of money is made easily in business, collectables outperform many other investments. However, when an economy turns downward the reverse also becomes true. In such times food, shelter and clothing might take precedence over comics. Alas, who knows the future as to when a turndown will occur? Perhaps we will continue to see a bull market in comic pricing for a lomg time as we wait for the museums to bid against one another in order to showcase comics as true historical artwork? Let us hope.

 

 

You are coming at this from a very macroeconomic point of view. Most people that would ever spend that much on any collectible will not have to worry about food, shelter and clothing even if the economy suffers in general. Also, while many collectibles will move in the same direction depending on the general economy, they don't all move at the same pace or increase at the same average rate, and within the same collectible field different items go up at different rates based on supply and demand. What I was specifically talking about was the best of the best comic books here - not all comics and not all collectibles in general and I pointed out things that are increasing the demand side of the equation for them like never before.

 

Like you touched on, we have seen that one buyer coming in can actually move this market up - Parrino was your example and it is a good one. If and when (your "if", my "when") comic books as investments are noticed by more high net worth individuals, there will be multiple buyers coming in to buy the best stuff, with spending money like Parrino had, and creating a price floor that Parrino *didn't* have. Jay recognized the potential but for a variety of reasons, and unfortunately from my view, didn't stick around long enough to see it actualized.

 

-Josh

[MrBedrock]

In my humble opinion anyone who would consider spending $85K on a comic book must have $85K to spend and their eye on a comic that they feel is worth $85K.

(Deep, huh?)

[action1kid]

 

 

Does anyone really care what bulls or bears in the industry say about the future of comic pricing as if some really know? My perspective comtinues to be that as long as liquidity is in abundance all collectables will prosper to some effect. I suspect that when a great deal of money is made easily in business, collectables outperform many other investments. However, when an economy turns downward the reverse also becomes true. In such times food, shelter and clothing might take precedence over comics. Alas, who knows the future as to when a turndown will occur? Perhaps we will continue to see a bull market in comic pricing for a lomg time as we wait for the museums to bid against one another in order to showcase comics as true historical artwork? Let us hope.

 

 

You are coming at this from a very macroeconomic point of view. Most people that would ever spend that much on any collectible will not have to worry about food, shelter and clothing even if the economy suffers in general. Also, while many collectibles will move in the same direction depending on the general economy, they don't all move at the same pace or increase at the same average rate, and within the same collectible field different items go up at different rates based on supply and demand. What I was specifically talking about was the best of the best comic books here - not all comics and not all collectibles in general and I pointed out things that are increasing the demand side of the equation for them like never before.

 

Like you touched on, we have seen that one buyer coming in can actually move this market up - Parrino was your example and it is a good one. If and when (your "if", my "when") comic books as investments are noticed by more high net worth individuals, there will be multiple buyers coming in to buy the best stuff, with spending money like Parrino had, and creating a price floor that Parrino *didn't* have. Jay recognized the potential but for a variety of reasons, and unfortunately from my view, didn't stick around long enough to see it actualized.

 

-Josh

Josh.

You cant buy books at multiples and expect to than flip them. For example, he paid 350k for the Pay copy of Marvel # 1[JUST 1 OF MANY EXAMPLES ] and auctioned it off[via Heritage] for 200k to Geppi[who he origanally bought it from.What a score by the way! You pay multiples? You have to buy and hold to make money[at least nowadays.] Also Parrino knew Jack about comics.I believe huges was his agent.

[Aman619]

 

 

Does anyone really care what bulls or bears in the industry say about the future of comic pricing as if some really know? My perspective comtinues to be that as long as liquidity is in abundance all collectables will prosper to some effect. I suspect that when a great deal of money is made easily in business, collectables outperform many other investments. However, when an economy turns downward the reverse also becomes true. In such times food, shelter and clothing might take precedence over comics. Alas, who knows the future as to when a turndown will occur? Perhaps we will continue to see a bull market in comic pricing for a lomg time as we wait for the museums to bid against one another in order to showcase comics as true historical artwork? Let us hope.

 

 

You are coming at this from a very macroeconomic point of view. Most people that would ever spend that much on any collectible will not have to worry about food, shelter and clothing even if the economy suffers in general. Also, while many collectibles will move in the same direction depending on the general economy, they don't all move at the same pace or increase at the same average rate, and within the same collectible field different items go up at different rates based on supply and demand. What I was specifically talking about was the best of the best comic books here - not all comics and not all collectibles in general and I pointed out things that are increasing the demand side of the equation for them like never before.

 

Like you touched on, we have seen that one buyer coming in can actually move this market up - Parrino was your example and it is a good one. If and when (your "if", my "when") comic books as investments are noticed by more high net worth individuals, there will be multiple buyers coming in to buy the best stuff, with spending money like Parrino had, and creating a price floor that Parrino *didn't* have. Jay recognized the potential but for a variety of reasons, and unfortunately from my view, didn't stick around long enough to see it actualized.

 

-Josh

 

your points are valid and your (realistically cautious) bullishness noted. Which begs an honest question: If you believe what you say about future values, are you now a buyer and holder in anticipation of rising values??? or content to flip books on your site for the fees? Given your place at the fulcrum of the hobby, (between buyers and sellers) YOUR plans speak loudly and stockpiling key books would certainly strenhthen your case made here...

 

and stick around!!

[stagedoorjohnny]

and stick around!!

 

Ditto on that, Josh. You're good conversation. Parrino bought some really nice books that eventually would have panned out for him if he stuck around. Unfortunately, for every one of those, there was at least one ill advised purchase that he simply overpaid on. Not bad books, just paid too high of a price. Let's face it, the focus narrows on GA books when you start talking bigger multiples of guide and bigger $$$. At the end of the day, it didn't matter as his interests shifted to his photo archive find, so he never got to play it out. Not a bad guy to do business with.

[COMICLINK]

Parrino had the right idea but he went about it the wrong way from start to finish. His strategy was backwards. Had he done it differently, he could have made a fortune. How you buy and how/where you sell make all the difference. Aman - to answer your question, I *am* a big buyer and investor, and my money is where my mouth is. I focus mostly on big Golden Age books in any grade, other covers I think are special, and ultra high-grade Silver/Bronze and comic art. I also buy vintage sports cards, mostly baseball. However, like 90% of the other collectors out there, everything is for sale at some price, and I sometimes sell stuff to buy other stuff or put money back into the business. There is no shortage of stuff I am intereste in, so if I can make a profit, I can find somewhere else I am happy to put it.

[Aman619]

Parrino had the right idea but he went about it the wrong way from start to finish. His strategy was backwards. Had he done it differently, he could have made a fortune. How you buy and how/where you sell make all the difference. Aman - to answer your question, I *am* a big buyer and investor, and my money is where my mouth is. I focus mostly on big Golden Age books in any grade, other covers I think are special, and ultra high-grade Silver/Bronze and comic art. I also buy vintage sports cards, mostly baseball. However, like 90% of the other collectors out there, everything is for sale at some price, and I sometimes sell stuff to buy other stuff or put money back into the business. There is no shortage of stuff I am intereste in, so if I can make a profit, I can find somewhere else I am happy to put it.

 

I knew you were a good guy all along.

[jkrk]

You are coming at this from a very macroeconomic point of view. Most people that would ever spend that much on any collectible will not have to worry about food, shelter and clothing even if the economy suffers in general.

 

Yet, the point is that if the economy suffers, major art pieces still come up for auction, yet the prices realized are mostly sharply lower than their peak. Today, many arenas are still hot. Talk to the investment professionals on the floor in which I maintain an office. A vast amount of money is still being made. Tomorrow??? who knows? I've spent enough time watching a number of individuals who had substantial net wealth fall on difficult times only to see very, very high priced assets liquidated. So who knows no what the future holds?

 

 

Also, while many collectibles will move in the same direction depending on the general economy, they don't all move at the same pace or increase at the same average rate, and within the same collectible field different items go up at different rates based on supply and demand. What I was specifically talking about was the best of the best comic books here - not all comics and not all collectibles in general and I pointed out things that are increasing the demand side of the equation for them like never before.

 

Is the demand side increasing because:

 

a)A wider world is finally learning about comics as an art?

b)Rising prices is due to an increase in worldwide liquidity?

c)Rising prices generates rising speculation?

d)other?

 

I fully understand your concept that eventually the mainstream will begin to accept comics as an artform and therefore push prices sharply higher. It's possible.

I hope for the industry that day comes to pass.

 

I will admit I don't buy into the thesis but I have little vision. I made my living trading stocks/ commodities and invested a bit into real estate. Liquidity has always been paramount as I've seen black holes develope far too often in my relatively short investment life. Most have passed quickly and good times resurfaced shortly thereafter. I've only been trading since 1984. In essence I've only seen a bull market with a few hiccups. To predict the future based on slightly over 20 years of market action is foolish. How much of one's total wealth should be wrapped up in collectables? I have maybe 1%. Is that the right amount for everyone? Here is my answer: Play in an arena you are comfortable with understand, and leave emotions aside. Otherwise you'll tend to buy and sell very badly.

 

Here's to the world dicovering comics in a major way

 

Jay

[Aman619]

this conversation is incomplete without JC and Delllekerste....

[tth2]

Like you touched on, we have seen that one buyer coming in can actually move this market up - Parrino was your example and it is a good one. If and when (your "if", my "when") comic books as investments are noticed by more high net worth individuals, there will be multiple buyers coming in to buy the best stuff, with spending money like Parrino had, and creating a price floor that Parrino *didn't* have. Jay recognized the potential but for a variety of reasons, and unfortunately from my view, didn't stick around long enough to see it actualized.

Wasn't his departure partly because he got tired of being reamed by dealers?

[bluechip]

Like you touched on, we have seen that one buyer coming in can actually move this market up - Parrino was your example and it is a good one. If and when (your "if", my "when") comic books as investments are noticed by more high net worth individuals, there will be multiple buyers coming in to buy the best stuff, with spending money like Parrino had, and creating a price floor that Parrino *didn't* have. Jay recognized the potential but for a variety of reasons, and unfortunately from my view, didn't stick around long enough to see it actualized.

Wasn't his departure partly because he got tired of being reamed by dealers?

 

I know the departure of several prominent collectors who left because they were tired of being reamed by dealers.

 

Makes you wonder if the hobby, and the dealers themselves, wouldn't have been better off in the long run to hold back just a bit and make a profit without treating every deal as if it's the last deal they'll ever make.