9.6 my arse!

[osborn_fr]

That book was smoking! Just graded it in Chicago. If it was not mis-cut, it would have recieved a 9.8-9.9

 

so are you saying that CGC does downgrade for miswrap/miscut books?

 

[drbanner]

That book was smoking! Just graded it in Chicago. If it was not mis-cut, it would have recieved a 9.8-9.9

 

Is it mis-cut (not square), or off-center? What's the correct terminology!?!?

[supapimp]

that book is flawless stucturally wise other than the UGLY miscut. BTW banner, that's a miscut, see the black line on the edge of the cover?

[drbanner]

BTW banner, that's a miscut, see the black line on the edge of the cover?

 

Actually, the black line doesn't indicate it's miscut at all. According to the OS grading guide, "miscut" means it's not square (or cut to wrong size).

 

"Off-center", "miswrap", and "folding error" are terms in the guide that would be used to describe the defect seen on this book (spine wrapped to the back or front, or the black line on the right). Unless the book isn't square...which we can't tell since the bottom isn't visible.

[supapimp]

every book that i've seen labeled miscut on the CGC label or called miscut from sborock, has that black line running the length of the FC. i have a ASM 53 that is miscut and has the same black line running the length of the FC. as for OS guidelines, CGC doesn't go by OS guidelines.

[fantastic_four]

It's overly simplistic to say CGC doesn't go by Overstreet guidelines. We all have learned from his guides and use conventions from them to varying extents.

 

A lot of CGC's label comments regarding key story facets come STRAIGHT from the Overstreet price guide notations. For example, Overstreet notes that Fantastic Four 7 is the "First appearance of Kurrgo," and so does CGC. I'm pretty sure CGC wouldn't have noted it if they weren't lifting it straight from Overstreet...he's a lame character that died in that same issue he first appeared in! Can't imagine why Overstreet ever even noted him.

[supapimp]

let me clarify, i meant grading standards.

[fantastic_four]

Allow me to clarify--CGC's standards have always been MOSTLY the same as Overstreet's. And of course now they claim they use Overstreet's standards...although that's just a PR move since it was pretty much true all along anyway. There are differences, but CGC's grading has quite obviously been heavily influenced by Overstreet and his terminology.

[supapimp]

unless you can show me that in writing, it's just a bunch of hot air.

[Kevin76]

If you guys really wanna know if it's mis-cut or off center,to get real technicial, it's neither. Either the Angle Bar has to be moved, or the compensators are off.

[fantastic_four]

The fact that CGC is now going to use the Overstreet standards:

 

http://scoop.diamondgalleries.com/scoop_article.asp?ai=3025&si=121

 

The fact that the standard really isn't changing, inferring their standards have been similar to Overstreet's all along:

 

http://boards.collectors-society.com/showflat.php?Number=218213#Post218213

 

I'm fascinated to hear what you think the big differences are between Overstreet and CGC's guidelines, so please, share them with us. Based upon the grading evident from their slabs and the sketchy grading guidelines put forth in the Overstreet Grading Guides, they don't seem all that different.

[DiceX]

Kev,

 

No angle bars on the old books.

Covers were printed flat (on a letter press), cut down on a flat bed, and fed in the binder pocket while still flat.

 

The body was printed in flat sheets as well.

1 sheet = 1 comic

[BronzeBruce13]

Maybe I can shed some light... upon reading SB's post I PM'd him this:

(its been edited for clarity since the original was incomplete and not intended to be posted. Some portions were asked verbally.. so I've combined PM and verbal in some spots to make it more understandable)

 

That book was smoking! Just graded it in Chicago. If it was not mis-cut, it would have received a 9.8-9.9

 

Hey Steve,

 

I need clarification on terminology first. I finally thought I had this down, but maybe I'm wrong? Isn't that defect called a "miswrap" or "off-centering"? I've mistakenly used "registration" in the past, but I learned that's incorrect as registration has to do with the color alignment and the placement of the plates in the printing process.

 

I thought "miscut" means a book that was trimmed "asymmetrically"? Not a rectangle, but polygon... the ones that sometimes do not fit in the "well" squarely.

 

---------------------------------------------------

 

re: Eye Appeal, clarification request....

 

Now I'm little confused here...

 

We spoke about "eye appeal" in Philly for little bit and/or on the phone in the past. My understanding from those conversations was that "structure" (handling/storage/aging damage) was really the only grading consideration in High Grade books "unless" there was a "serious eye appeal" issue (you brought up a date stamp in the middle of a characters face as an example) but if I understood you correctly, you indicated "miswraps" were not factored in? You indicated that in mid-grade down that 'eye appeal" was indeed a factor in the grade, but not in HG as explained above. I have owned/handled several 9.8's with fairly serious miswraps, some not very far off from the Hulk 181 in discussion. In fact, more than a few were angled as well (which is worse IMHO)... so clearly a 9.8 is possible with a similar level of "miswrap eye appeal strikes" against it. I'd also mention that some surely had enough defects (albeit minor) that I'm confident they had no chance at a higher grade from a structural standpoint.

 

Is this particular Hulk 181 an example where a miswrap indeed was considered a "serious eye appeal" issue by CGC? and DID it alone keep it from going higher? Its obvious its serious... I just don't remember you indicating there was a point where a miswrap can be the cause for a deduction? Otherwise, I don't understand the "would have received a 9.8-9.9" comment???

 

 

Steve responded to call him because like me, he sucks at typing. After 20 minutes or so, I think I have a decent understanding and can relay what I understood the answers to be to a few questions posted.

 

1. CGC considers (or at least refers to) "miswraps" and "miscuts" both... as "miscuts" for simplicity's sake. He also pointed out that there are other terms used in printing that differ from accepted comic terms we use.

 

2. Miswraps (or CGC miscuts) CAN be factored into the grade on High Grade books too... but it seems to be very rare and only in extreme cases (like the Hulk 181). Its a judgment call obviously, but I came away with the impression that if the cover is missing something the grader considers important to see (or his eye expects to see), like an incomplete/trimmed image, text or graphic element (using the Hulk 181 as an example: the "2" in the price, word "incredible" in the banner, the Black Arrow, Wolverine's Arm, decent amount of Background)... it is serious enough to hold it back even if its structurally deserving of better. I asked if the reverse was true as well... spots on the book where "nothing" is printed because the design "ran out "or a "repeat of the design" from another cover starts. He acknowledged that would be an instance too that could be similar. Sometimes (like the Hulk 181) a book can have both.

 

3. Even though a clear line "where it starts" is not defined, "Eye Appeal" IS a determining factor in Mid-Grade down, but for High-Grade it is a consideration only in extreme cases.

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

BTW... random info I learned recently...

 

Interior writing or signatures are not always put on the label. I was under the impression that when the label note policy was changed a'ways back, that although external DRA's (Distribution Related Additions) were eliminated, interior writing would be disclosed on the label since it was not visible. This too is a judgment call, not a "rule of thumb". The grade and (possible value) may influence that decision. When I called about the signature on the first page of a major book I was considering buying recently I learned that it probably would not have been on the label in a lower grade (where that IS, was not defined). Since it was a 9.6...it was there and could NOT be requested to be removed (unlike older slabs with external DRAs that can be). Had it been a 9.0 or something (not sure where) it likely would NOT have been on the label.

 

Also, Miscut on an Older Label book would likely NOT be removed upon reslabbing or by request because it was a determining factor in the grade. That too would be a judgment call and I'm not sure I grasped all of that one (maybe in Mid-Grade only?). I should have asked a follow up but Steve already took out enough time to field my questions. There are not Hard Line rules in many instances.

 

Steve... correct me where I'm wrong if I've misunderstood anything?

[fantastic_four]

3. Even though a clear line "where it starts" is not defined, "Eye Appeal" IS a determining factor in Mid-Grade down, but for High-Grade it is a consideration only in extreme cases.

 

Why would this be? The opposite should be true...eye appeal matters more for high grade but less for mid grade and lower.

[Kevin76]

Kev,

 

No angle bars on the old books.

Covers were printed flat (on a letter press), cut down on a flat bed, and fed in the binder pocket while still flat.

 

The body was printed in flat sheets as well.

1 sheet = 1 comic

 

so they were inserted in the bindery eh? but since that fold is off that must mean the comps were off cause the book is even to the back so you can't blame a bad fold in the bindery,I watched the Comic Book special on the History Channel,they showed the books on a heatset press,which I kinda figured it was.It was quick though what they showed...I'm surpised that the press was that clean.

[BronzeBruce13]

3. Even though a clear line "where it starts" is not defined, "Eye Appeal" IS a determining factor in Mid-Grade down, but for High-Grade it is a consideration only in extreme cases.

 

Why would this be? The opposite should be true...eye appeal matters more for high grade but less for mid grade and lower.

 

Point... Call SB and ask for clarifcation. Your argument makes sense to me. Maybe its because there would be even fewer High Grade books then? Think about it. I'm not justifying the system, but a serious lack of "perceived" HG books may not create enough of a need for a professional grading system in financial terms.

[DiceX]

so they were inserted in the bindery eh? but since that fold is off that must mean the comps were off cause the book is even to the back so you can't blame a bad fold in the bindery,I watched the Comic Book special on the History Channel,they showed the books on a heatset press,which I kinda figured it was.It was quick though what they showed...I'm surpised that the press was that clean.

 

Actually, since I've learned this, I can safely say HERE is the reason for miswrapped books...

The binder was not causing this common miswrap.

It was a bad cut on the flatbed before the book was bound.

The image was uncentered on the sheet.

When fed into the binder and the book was folded, you get a cover image that favors the front or back of the book.

 

All this time I've been blaming the binder or the press, when it's actually coming from the book being trimmed prior to binder production on a flatbed cutter.

[DiceX]

Just to add that from a personal point of view, I would MUCH rather have a miswrap where the front cover wraps to the back cover.

I can't stand any more than 1/16" of white on the spine of the front cover.

Miswraps are one of my biggest pet peeves.

 

So. I would rather have this book than a similar graded one with a 1/8" or more white up the spine on the front cover.

[ArAich]

Very informative post BB...but I still would rather use a supapimpesque term and just say it's "fooked up"....

[supapimp]

Just to add that from a personal point of view, I would MUCH rather have a miswrap where the front cover wraps to the back cover.

I can't stand any more than 1/16" of white on the spine of the front cover.

Miswraps are one of my biggest pet peeves.

 

So. I would rather have this book than a similar graded one with a 1/8" or more white up the spine on the front cover.

 

ditto