Great, another thread locked

[DeeDee-migration]

Well it really went downhill fast in my opinion and deserved to be locked.

Why? Explain why you think that?

If anything, it should have been locked when Bill eviscerated Brad with no provocation? And then started throwing molotov cocktails at anyone who just happened to have an opposing view. It should have been locked then. Not now when some things were actually being discussed.

 

You answered yourself. Everyone needs to realize that sometimes mods aren't around 24 hrs, the damage to the thread had already been done. That discussion wasn't going to go anywhere new nor was it going to be anything contructive anymore. They were talking about pork for the last 20 or so posts.

It was an analogy dammit

 

 

Here, this will make you feel better

 

 

When can I give you more money!

thought you gave it all to linsner already

 

Lisner can't draw like you Now bump me up on the que.

woo-hoo!!

 

you should see the last one i did... its hot

[Sid]

How come you haven't bumped up the babe page to post these?

[arexcrooke]

Well it really went downhill fast in my opinion and deserved to be locked.

Why? Explain why you think that?

If anything, it should have been locked when Bill eviscerated Brad with no provocation? And then started throwing molotov cocktails at anyone who just happened to have an opposing view. It should have been locked then. Not now when some things were actually being discussed.

 

You answered yourself. Everyone needs to realize that sometimes mods aren't around 24 hrs, the damage to the thread had already been done. That discussion wasn't going to go anywhere new nor was it going to be anything contructive anymore. They were talking about pork for the last 20 or so posts.

It was an analogy dammit

And a tasty analogy at that

hi arex

Hi DeeDee,

wanna do me a favor?

[rob_allan]

This is the one thing that has befuddled me most about these boards since joining. They are actually over-moderated.

 

I can understand something being removed in the event of, say, extreme profanity. Or SPAMing. Moderators are important in accordance with those types of tasks. But honestly, this business of locking threads for being "immature" or "off topic" when some valid history is being given, valid points are being made, and when despite the tone of the thread, there is a great deal there for everyone to learn is downright ridiculous.

 

I understand the idea of 'community building' and the like, but the truth is-- THIS IS THE COMMUNITY. The only difference between this and the Hulk v Spider-Man argument that occurs in the comicbook store is that a discussion such as the locked thread has FINANCIAL and ETHICAL implications. And if you want a collecting community that thinks about these things, then build it by letting people express themselves.

 

I, for one, have spent a good bit of my disposeable income on the boards recently. And I frankly think it's nice to know who the hell I'm dealing with. I feel like I learned alot about everyone that posted, and indeed their concerns, that adds perspective to things such as who I may purchase from in the future. Or, for that matter, who I might want to direct a particular question at.

 

While I thought there was a slight lack of tact with the post that unearthed the thread, I also understood the emotion behind it. I also understood why there was pronounced disagreement with it. But frankly, that's what it's all about. This very thread will impact my buying habits in the future. I don't want books that I feel have a "dirty" legacy like being purchased with "misappropriated" funds. If I want a story behind my books, I'll buy a pedigreed book that has an uplifting tale behind the comic.

 

If I wanted to be mollycoddled I'd find an AOL community or something. But this is a COLLECTORS SOCIETY and while I understand there is a reputation to uphold, there is also a need for discourse of this nature time-to-time.

 

Two thumbs down for the thread-locking. Very silly.

[DeeDee-migration]

How come you haven't bumped up the babe page to post these?

cause one owner didn't want his posted and the other i can't photogragh because my camera's busted

[DeeDee-migration]

Well it really went downhill fast in my opinion and deserved to be locked.

Why? Explain why you think that?

If anything, it should have been locked when Bill eviscerated Brad with no provocation? And then started throwing molotov cocktails at anyone who just happened to have an opposing view. It should have been locked then. Not now when some things were actually being discussed.

 

You answered yourself. Everyone needs to realize that sometimes mods aren't around 24 hrs, the damage to the thread had already been done. That discussion wasn't going to go anywhere new nor was it going to be anything contructive anymore. They were talking about pork for the last 20 or so posts.

It was an analogy dammit

And a tasty analogy at that

hi arex

Hi DeeDee,

wanna do me a favor?

What's up?

[Sid]

How come you haven't bumped up the babe page to post these?

cause one owner didn't want his posted and the other i can't photogragh because my camera's busted

 

Get me excited to shut me down... *sigh* .. women.

[deathlok]

This is the one thing that has befuddled me most about these boards since joining. They are actually over-moderated.

 

I can understand something being removed in the event of, say, extreme profanity. Or SPAMing. Moderators are important in accordance with those types of tasks. But honestly, this business of locking threads for being "immature" or "off topic" when some valid history is being given, valid points are being made, and when despite the tone of the thread, there is a great deal there for everyone to learn is downright ridiculous.

 

I understand the idea of 'community building' and the like, but the truth is-- THIS IS THE COMMUNITY. The only difference between this and the Hulk v Spider-Man argument that occurs in the comicbook store is that a discussion such as the locked thread has FINANCIAL and ETHICAL implications. And if you want a collecting community that thinks about these things, then build it by letting people express themselves.

 

I, for one, have spent a good bit of my disposeable income on the boards recently. And I frankly think it's nice to know who the hell I'm dealing with. I feel like I learned alot about everyone that posted, and indeed their concerns, that adds perspective to things such as who I may purchase from in the future. Or, for that matter, who I might want to direct a particular question at.

 

While I thought there was a slight lack of tact with the post that unearthed the thread, I also understood the emotion behind it. I also understood why there was pronounced disagreement with it. But frankly, that's what it's all about. This very thread will impact my buying habits in the future. I don't want books that I feel have a "dirty" legacy like being purchased with "misappropriated" funds. If I want a story behind my books, I'll buy a pedigreed book that has an uplifting tale behind the comic.

 

If I wanted to be mollycoddled I'd find an AOL community or something. But this is a COLLECTORS SOCIETY and while I understand there is a reputation to uphold, there is also a need for discourse of this nature time-to-time.

 

Two thumbs down for the thread-locking. Very silly.

 

[DeeDee-migration]

How come you haven't bumped up the babe page to post these?

cause one owner didn't want his posted and the other i can't photogragh because my camera's busted

 

Get me excited to shut me down... *sigh* .. women.

i'll have the last guy send you a pic

[Sid]

How come you haven't bumped up the babe page to post these?

cause one owner didn't want his posted and the other i can't photogragh because my camera's busted

 

Get me excited to shut me down... *sigh* .. women.

i'll have the last guy send you a pic

 

What were they? Are you getting comissioned for male drawings too or just women?

[awe4one]

If you are talking about the above quote, then that is where we disagree. I don't equate pressing with restoration. Trimming - sure, color touched - absolutely, structural support - yes, but simple pressing doesn't fall in my definition of restoration. Convince me otherwise and I may change my tune.

 

Well I don't think you're going to be convinced regardless of what I say honestly...but I'll give the ol' college try...

 

Pressing is the manipulation of a comic to improve it's appearance. That's not a virgin comic...it has been systematically enhanced to look different than it's true normal appearance all these years later. If the comic has been warped in some way, then it's warped. I'd much prefer it warped than pressed flat. Again it's my preference...

 

Also, pressing used to be discussed as a resto procedure a decade ago but now that CGC made the call that it isn't, the discussion has seriously muted. Nothing changed between then and now...only a grading company's opinion on where the procedure stands. Disassembly has also been discussed as a resto procedure for years but now CGC said it's OK. Would you openly disclose whether a comic has been disassembled?

 

Jim

[DeeDee-migration]

How come you haven't bumped up the babe page to post these?

cause one owner didn't want his posted and the other i can't photogragh because my camera's busted

 

Get me excited to shut me down... *sigh* .. women.

i'll have the last guy send you a pic

 

What were they? Are you getting comissioned for male drawings too or just women?

they were a supergirl and a lois lane... the lois lane is going to be shipped tomorrow, plus i have a hot GA jungle girl sketch on my desk right now i have some male characters coming up next on the list

[seanfingh]

 

 

Rob,

 

Not that anyone cares, but this noob agrees with you 100%. Leading up to and including the VCC I have dropped a ton of coin on books here, almost to the exclusion of Ebay. And every deal has been great. But I look at the education that I have received for free from people who earned it the hard way (ie Tim's horrific story in the Showcase thread) as being worth infinitely more. The threads that have been locked lately have been the most informative and most educational, almost to the point of being primers for the issue involved. It's a shame that the mods can't devise a "non-death penalty" solution.

 

--Sean.

[MasterChief]

All:

 

I was monitoring that resurrected thread, with its ensuing bizarre dialogue branches, and I must be honest that it was making me physically ill; to the point I could not believe what I was reading. I apologize for not responding sooner to certain comments that I felt were in my ballpark (I was drafting this when the thread was locked), but if it might be of help – late though they are – here are some points to keep in mind:

• The Manufactured Gold thread ran from Sep 04, 2006 to Mar 07, 2007 (7 months).
  
• On September 13, FFB posted for the time in the thread (post number 20).
  
• On November 27, the last case example was posted in MG (case #19).
  
• The thread was dormant until Feb 12, 2007, when it was bumped.
  
• Minor discussions took place in MG during the month of February.
  
• On March 4, 2007, the Gallery of Disclosure launched.
  
• On March 6, 2007, FFB made comments regarding 4 Gallery Books.
  
• March 7, 2007, the Manufactured Gold thread was locked.

The take away here is that FFB was a full participant from the beginning of MG right up to the end. At no time did he give opposing viewpoints and opinions on any case examples (especially the ones he is now) during the original presentation (Mar-Nov). He did make a minor comment (as did others) on one specific case, and I took their thoughts into perspective when I re-wrote the text for the Gallery (Phantom Lady -- I removed comments regarding cover transparency).

 

Moreover, as the author of Manufactured Gold, I specifically mentioned in the very first post that if there was error on my part or if there was opportunity to provide additional educational insight for something for which I missed, that I welcomed those with experience to impart their knowledge for the benefit of all. The door was open the whole time for anyone to chime in with their thoughts and opinions -- regardless of qualifications.

 

The bottom-line curiosity questions for me here are (which I keep asking myself over and over): Why did FFB wait a full 3 months after the last case example was posted in MG to contradict the opinions on these books? And why did he choose to give his restoration opinions only after the Gallery of Disclosure was launched in March?

 

I am not trying to resurrect the discussion, so take it for what it is. I just wanted to post what my thoughts were on the matter.

 

--MasterChief

[FFB]

All:

 

I was monitoring that resurrected thread, with its ensuing bizarre dialogue branches, and I must be honest that it was making me physically ill; to the point I could not believe what I was reading. I apologize for not responding sooner to certain comments that I felt were in my ballpark (I was drafting this when the thread was locked), but if it might be of help – late though they are – here are some points to keep in mind:

• The Manufactured Gold thread ran from Sep 04, 2006 to Mar 07, 2007 (7 months).
  
• On September 13, FFB posted for the time in the thread (post number 20).
  
• On November 27, the last case example was posted in MG (case #19).
  
• The thread was dormant until Feb 12, 2007, when it was bumped.
  
• Minor discussions took place in MG during the month of February.
  
• On March 4, 2007, the Gallery of Disclosure launched.
  
• On March 6, 2007, FFB made comments regarding 4 Gallery Books.
  
• March 7, 2007, the Manufactured Gold thread was locked.

The take away here is that FFB was a full participant from the beginning of MG right up to the end. At no time did he give opposing viewpoints and opinions on any case examples (especially the ones he is now) during the original presentation (Mar-Nov). He did make a minor comment (as did others) on one specific case, and I took their thoughts into perspective when I re-wrote the text for the Gallery (Phantom Lady -- I removed comments regarding cover transparency).

 

Moreover, as the author of Manufactured Gold, I specifically mentioned in the very first post that if there was error on my part or if there was opportunity to provide additional educational insight for something for which I missed, that I welcomed those with experience to impart their knowledge for the benefit of all. The door was open the whole time for anyone to chime in with their thoughts and opinions -- regardless of qualifications.

 

The bottom-line curiosity questions for me here are (which I keep asking myself over and over): Why did FFB wait a full 3 months after the last case example was posted in MG to contradict the opinions on these books? And why did he choose to give his restoration opinions only after the Gallery of Disclosure was launched in March?

 

I am not trying to resurrect the discussion, so take it for what it is. I just wanted to post what my thoughts were on the matter.

 

--MasterChief

 

The easy answer is, the date I made my comments was the date on which I took a close look to see if I agreed with the calls you made. I certainly wasn't hiding out, waiting for you to post books in the Gallery so that I could spring my opinions on you.

 

I haven't gone back to re-read the entire Manufactured Gold thread, but I would be very surprised if the first time I questioned one of the calls you made was at the end of the thread. I recall spending much of the time reading that thread wondering where you were getting your information, because I did not get the sense that you had any deep understanding of restoration processes or detection.

 

So, having answered your questions, here are my questions from before (which remain unanswered): who are the four people who reviewed each of these books and made the determinations about any supposed restoration? What knowledge and experience do they have with restoration that would ensure that they are making the correct calls?

 

And another question: what review procedure do you have in place if someone questions a call you guys made?

[awe4one]

The bottom-line curiosity questions for me here are (which I keep asking myself over and over): Why did FFB wait a full 3 months after the last case example was posted in MG to contradict the opinions on these books? And why did he choose to give his restoration opinions only after the Gallery of Disclosure was launched in March?

 

Beside his motivations, are his observations valid?

 

Jim

[Scheradon]

Why? Why was the Disbared Lawyer thread locked? Makes no sense to me. While there was some flaming going on, in amongst the flaming, there was some debating of ideas that had value.

 

Completely agree. There was some real good stuff in there. The lines of communication may have been somewhat strained, but there was constructive dialogue occurring, and we have seen far, far worse flaming going on and a thread has lived.

 

Somebody definitely jumped the gun on this one....

 

I completely agree! If the mods want to lock threads with lots of immature postings, why not start with one titled The longest, silliest thread ever. Or how about any of the countless Greggy vs Deathlok graemlin threads (sorry guys - no offense). It's a bit rediculous that we can't even be allowed to have a lively discussion here anymore.

[Silver Surfer]

I think the title of the thread had something to do with it being locked. Doug has suffered enough and they probably did it as a courtesy to him. If that was the Mods motivation then I agree with the move.

[MrBedrock]

If you are talking about the above quote, then that is where we disagree. I don't equate pressing with restoration. Trimming - sure, color touched - absolutely, structural support - yes, but simple pressing doesn't fall in my definition of restoration. Convince me otherwise and I may change my tune.

 

Well I don't think you're going to be convinced regardless of what I say honestly...but I'll give the ol' college try...

 

Pressing is the manipulation of a comic to improve it's appearance. That's not a virgin comic...it has been systematically enhanced to look different than it's true normal appearance all these years later. If the comic has been warped in some way, then it's warped. I'd much prefer it warped than pressed flat. Again it's my preference...

 

Also, pressing used to be discussed as a resto procedure a decade ago but now that CGC made the call that it isn't, the discussion has seriously muted. Nothing changed between then and now...only a grading company's opinion on where the procedure stands. Disassembly has also been discussed as a resto procedure for years but now CGC said it's OK. Would you openly disclose whether a comic has been disassembled?

 

Jim

 

Jim,

I appreciate the dialogue. And I very well could be convinced otherwise, and it is discussion like this that could get me there. But first.......

The pressing that used to be discussed as restoration is different from the pressing that folks like Matt Nelson are doing now. In the old days, after dis-assembling a comic to wet clean it (dipping the cover in an evaporative cleaning solution) it had to be re-sized and pressed flat after drying. Thus "Cleaned and Pressed". The pressing that I (at present) don't have a problem with is localized flattening of paper unassociated with any other restorative procedures. In other words, I have no problem with ironing out a wave, ripple, or light bend that doesn't break color or paper fiber. It is this type of pressing that can turn an 8.0 to a 9.0, 9.0 to 9.2 etc.

[awe4one]

The pressing that used to be discussed as restoration is different from the pressing that folks like Matt Nelson are doing now. In the old days, after dis-assembling a comic to wet clean it (dipping the cover in an evaporative cleaning solution) it had to be re-sized and pressed flat after drying. Thus "Cleaned and Pressed". The pressing that I (at present) don't have a problem with is localized flattening of paper unassociated with any other restorative procedures. In other words, I have no problem with ironing out a wave, ripple, or light bend that doesn't break color or paper fiber. It is this type of pressing that can turn an 8.0 to a 9.0, 9.0 to 9.2 etc.

 

No...it was the pressing out of wrinkles that I'm referring to. It was discussed in Overstreet as well as some of the periodicals of the time (Comic Journal comes to mind). What you're referring to has been discussed as well but it's an entirely different procedure than what I'm referring to...

 

Jim