Good Intentions… will they result in the Positive, Unexpected or Negative?

[BronzeBruce13]

Like most board members and many lurkers, I've been following as much of the serious Pressing Related discussions as I can. Even though I have yet to contribute much to the debate (I'm currently working on a summary of my views) I was really struck by a recent post by "Nearmint" Jeff Delaney (quoted below from the NOD thread).

 

I don't really know Jeff well, but his insightful post basically stopped me in my tracks and forced me to consider tangents and possibilities I hadn't previously. That is saying something considering this is a "much discussed" topic.

 

Anyway, I feel reposting Jeff's comments for additional consideration and discussion may be productive and interesting. From a "human nature" perspective, I wonder what reactions/results lay ahead... assuming this topic continues to reach more/enough of the "presumably uninformed" segment of CGC collectors.

 

Predicting the response and reactions of human beings is often NOT a simple task. One aspect is more often true though IMHO... "People generally do what's best for them". That said, whatever your position is regarding Pressing and Disclosure, and depending on what you hope to see happen... what is the most realistic and/or intelligent plan of action?

 

What do you feel is the likely to happen? Try and break down your views in a percentage format (and it doesn't have to equal 100 , use a 10-15 +/- margin for error, etc.). I know this is far from perfect, and some positions could overlap, but its a start and will give us more detailed idea of what people think.

 

(edited to include a more balanced list of possibilities - sorry for my impulsive, incomplete post)

 

(1) Indifference (little demand for change)

(2) Increased Demand for Disclosure (in significant numbers to make potential impact)

(3) Increased Participation in the "Pressing Game" by the "Now Informed"

(4) Spike in "Sell Offs" from Unhappy CGC Collectors

(5) Something Else Negative for the Hobby? (Itemize)

(6) Something Else Positive for the Hobby? (Itemize)

(7) Anything Else I have Not Considered (Itemize)

 

My prediction would be: (1) 85-90+%, (2) 1-2%, (3) 10-20%, (4) less than 1%, (5) 1-5%, (6) 1-5%, (7) ?

 

 

"Months ago, when I was still a member of NOD, several of us were emailing back and forth about some issue, and I remember responding "wouldn't it be ironic if by educating the community about pressing, we inadvertently compounded the practice of pressing ten-fold?" No one responded to that very real possibility. I'm all for education and disclosure, but if anyone thinks that education is going to diminish the practice, I think it's highly unlikely. As more people become aware that some of their books haven't "reached their full potential", that can only help Matt's business."

[garthgantu]

Hi, Bruce:

 

I'd rather just revisit Delaney's quote/comment six months from now and see if it turns out to be prescient.

 

I would say this: the idea of NOT exploring the whole "clean and/or press + resubmit" trend seems dangerous indeed. It's simply sticking your head in the sand and pretending that everything's just peachy.

 

Hasn't education diminished the practice of driving while under the influence? I would hope so. And education has certainly helped improve the situation where child seats and safety belts in cars are concerned. I'm hard-pressed to think of an instance in which education of the audience most closely associated with the issue at hand turned out to be a negative..? (I guess if you're playing the "clean and/or press + resubmit" game, then education and raising awareness might be negative to you down the road?)

 

How about a survey that asks "what will the impact of undisclosed cleaning and/or pressing to attain higher grades have on our hobby?" I can think of a few possible choices:

- No impact; things will remain status quo with prices rising steadily, especially for higher grade books

- Loss of historic, pedigreed books' provenance, resulting in signficant holes in established pedigrees over time

- Market Drop: due to influx of newly-minted high-grade books, prices eventually trend down or don't rise as sharply because the supply-and-demand balance shifts

- CGC downturn: enough buyers decide that cleaning and pressing are restoration, and thus view CGC's restoration check as insufficient, that the market for slabbed books declines, especially higher-grade books that are more likely to have been 'enhanced'

- Increased demand for disclosure: enough buyers gravitate to those sellers who promise to disclose 'enhancement' that other major sellers follow suit, such that the market segments into two camps, with some portion of the customer base straddling the fence and purchasing pressed books in at least some instances.

[Mr. Zipper]

Hi Bruce -

 

I don't know what you based your predicted statistics on, but without any sort of impartial research, I don't think we can even come close to knowing the real numbers. This forum is so skewed and such a small slice of the collecting community at large, any results garnered here would be reflective of ONLY that -- what people think here.

 

Secondly, education may equal more people doing it, but that isn't a valid reason to not educate. You can't base your actions on what **some** people may do with that information, if the information is of value to many. Maybe schools shouldn't have drug awareness lessons because it might encourage some to seek out a high they were unaware of previously. Maybe Internet providers should stop warning us about the hazards of email viruses because it will encourage some people to see if they can get away with it.

 

If you really want to take the scenario back to its roots, maybe CGC should never have been formed, because without those lucrative .2 upticks, there would be VERY few people performing non-dissassembly pressing.

 

Sorry, but this logic doesn't flush with me at all.

[skybolt]

To a certain extent I do agree with Jeff's comment or concern.

 

Let's put it this way. After joining these boards about 3 years ago I have seen how pressing and other minor improvements could be considered major taboos by a lot of collectors. My ideals have vastly changed over these years to reflect this sentiment, and to vow never to press my own books. However, if I hadn't joined these boards and was suddenly approached by someone that basically told me how my collection would increase 2-fold in value and that CGC accepted the method of improvement, what would my response be. I doubt if I'll ever know the answer to that question.

 

Heck, I used to erase some dirt (dry cleaning) off my $5 moderns when I was a teenager and never thought twice about it. So I could definitely see partially informed collectors taking advantage of this revelation. To them it may seem like they're not doing anything out of the ordinary.

[Ze-man]

I think that over time the more that pressing and other related issues are talked about the more people will obviously become aware of them. After learning of it those wishing to explore it further can then do so. Be it to ask a dealer if a book was pressed. Or to look into getting a book pressed for themselves.

 

In the end I think it can only be helpful to all parties concerned. Those who were not aware of it before can use it as they see fit. Those wishing for disclosure because it bothers them, or they would not bid as much will know to ask the seller about it. And those wishing to use it as a selling tool will then be able to do so as well.

 

The gap will eventually narrow to the point where one day everyone will know about it, and will use that information to best serve their collecting interests. Whatever they may be.

 

Kenny

[Mr. Zipper]

The gap will eventually narrow to the point where one day everyone will know about it, and will use that information to best serve their collecting interests. Whatever they may be.

 

Kenny

 

 

Agreed.

 

If there is a momentary upswing in the people who are actively pressing, it's because the people who see opportunity are always ahead of the curve and a step ahead of the "average Joe." This applies whenever ANY innovation reveals itself.

[BronzeBruce13]

You're misunderstanding me Garth.

 

I'm not saying that educating uniformed collectors is wrong at all. I'm in favor of disclosure personally, and will inform every buyer I encounter in any private deal (should I have a pressed book). I will also practice disclosure within selling venues that facilitate that preference. (That's another topic I will post on tomorrow as I received a email from Doug at Pedigree outlining his new policy... and I also called ComicLink for their official stance as well).

 

Anyway, even if I did not communicate it in such a way that you understand my motivation (since you brought up my position as a "new-to-the-game presser" and alluded to the possibility that this post may serve my interests)... my main point is, as Jeff postulated, "what if through good intentions... (education campaign in this case) the result leads to increased participation in pressing". If that's good or bad, or something else is just opinion.

 

Again, I'm not suggesting any positive attempt to bring unaware people "up to speed on any issue" is negative in and of itself. That said, this is a complicated world and sometimes unusual things happen.. even with good intentions. That's the gist of this post... how will people respond. Sorry if you don't care for the way I phrased it... I did my best.

[BronzeBruce13]

Hey Steve,

 

I'm just asking a question... and seeking other's responses to Nearmint's post.

 

Perhaps, I should have spent more time considering how to phrase this in a more neutral sounding, PC manner... but it takes me long enough as it is to get one of my posts off the ground.

 

I changed the title to include "positive" results. That was an oversight since that is a real possibility. I suppose I was "tunnel visioned" too much on the one aspect Jeff raised. I also made a couple changes to the "list of possible reactions" to make it more balanced. Thanks to you and Garth for bringing it to my attention. I do want productive discourse... as do you I'm sure.

 

Anyway, my posting language deficiencies aside... would you comment on where you see things going on its present course? Use your own "list of possible reactions" is you don't care for mine.

 

It's just a discussion man.

 

 

 

 

 

Hi Bruce -

 

I don't know what you based your predicted statistics on, but without any sort of impartial research, I don't think we can even come close to knowing the real numbers. This forum is so skewed and such a small slice of the collecting community at large, any results garnered here would be reflective of ONLY that -- what people think here.

 

Secondly, education may equal more people doing it, but that isn't a valid reason to not educate. You can't base your actions on what **some** people may do with that information, if the information is of value to many. Maybe schools shouldn't have drug awareness lessons because it might encourage some to seek out a high they were unaware of previously. Maybe Internet providers should stop warning us about the hazards of email viruses because it will encourage some people to see if they can get away with it.

 

If you really want to take the scenario back to its roots, maybe CGC should never have been formed, because without those lucrative .2 upticks, there would be VERY few people performing non-dissassembly pressing.

 

Sorry, but this logic doesn't flush with me at all.

[Davenport]

 

(1) Indifference (little demand for change)

 

Adding one, since it's what first came to mind.

 

Indifference (loss of reaction to HG)

 

It's difficult to have an emotional response if you don't know what you're looking at.

 

The 'Wow Factor' gets shortchanged if there's no decernable difference in a comic that miraculously survived through time and one that was benchworked recently to look as if it had.

 

View a HG labled book, what are you seeing? A rare miracle of happenstance or top-notch labor skills? That honest immediate 'wow' reaction to HG gets dulled. Or worse, flatlined.

[Aman619]

I think this is a good train of thought. I remember Jeffs post and it gave me pause as well. So I think that education about pressing etc IS good overall, even IF it leads to MORE pressing. Because this will level the playing field. If right now only a few "players" are getting away with it because its still a "dirty little secret", thats unfair to others who do not know about it. And unfair to those who wont do oi because they feel it's "cheating." But, since CGC goes along with it, thereby making the practice "legit", it is only fair to level the playing field so that anyone can do it too.

 

My preference would be for NO ONE to do it. Leave the books alone!

But after that must be for ALL to be free to choose to avail themselves freely of its benefits.

Or else we end up like Namisgers's Spideys: take the high road and watch the next guy get the extra profit with no ill effects.

 

At least I want to give education every chance to succeed to stop the practice..

[BronzeBruce13]

Interesting Point... and accurate I'm sure to varying degrees depending on the collector.

 

At this stage of the game, I do indeed feel a "little less" impressed (damn I had to use that word) than I used to at seeing new 9.6 - 9.8 books. While some percentage of this dip in "Wow Factor" is undoubtedly a byproduct of pressing and its contribution to upgrades into the high grade realm, I have to believe that its also a "natural evolution" due to my pursuing and collecting them for 7 years... and also seeing census numbers rise "naturally" from new (yet) unpressed submissions.

 

Considering that most of the best HG "pressing candidates" are really very, very sharp looking books that appear to be undergraded and have very minor, (difficult to see through the slab) overflash crimping and/or subtle NCB indentations... is there really that much of a visual improvement (over the untouched gem) in these books to question if the book is a rare miracle of happenstance... or the (primary) result of pressing techniques?

 

The books I had pressed (about 15 total) don't look much (if at all) different to me now. They were "Ultra-Sweet", "looking like they deserve a better grade gems" before I had them pressed... and afterwards they basically (at best) look a little sharper in regards to the cover edges and corners.

 

Most of the minor defects that were originally present and downgraded by CGC were not even visible to me. So, the books were indeed Wow! and the noticeable visual improvement from the original... very minimal, if noticeable at all.

[BronzeBruce13]

Great Post Aman...

 

that all makes good sense to me... especially the excerpt in bold. In a perfect world, no one would manipulate collectibles at all except for legitimate attempts at preserving them. A level playing field is the fairest solution.

 

As to the last part of your last sentence however, I think its completely unrealistic to hope that the practice will stop in any scenario. Disclosure seems to be the only realistic goal.

 

There has to be a "line in the sand" where manipulation is acceptable and not. Unfortunately, its detectability has to be a determining factor. All things considered, I think the line has to be "in front" of pressing while behind trimming, color touch and the other obvious no nos.

 

I think this is a good train of thought. I remember Jeffs post and it gave me pause as well. So I think that education about pressing etc IS good overall, even IF it leads to MORE pressing. Because this will level the playing field. If right now only a few "players" are getting away with it because its still a "dirty little secret", thats unfair to others who do not know about it. And unfair to those who wont do oi because they feel it's "cheating." But, since CGC goes along with it, thereby making the practice "legit", it is only fair to level the playing field so that anyone can do it too.

 

My preference would be for NO ONE to do it. Leave the books alone!

But after that must be for ALL to be free to choose to avail themselves freely of its benefits. Or else we end up like Namisgers's Spideys: take the high road and watch the next guy get the extra profit with no ill effects.

 

At least I want to give education every chance to succeed to stop the practice..

[Davenport]

 

Considering that most of the best HG "pressing candidates" are really very, very sharp looking books that appear to be undergraded and have very minor, (difficult to see through the slab) overflash crimping and/or subtle NCB indentations... is there really that much of a visual improvement (over the untouched gem) in these books to question if the book is a rare miracle of happenstance... or the (primary) result of pressing techniques?

 

The books I had pressed (about 15 total) don't look much (if at all) different to me now. They were "Ultra-Sweet", "looking like they deserve a better grade gems" before I had them pressed... and afterwards they basically (at best) look a little sharper in regards to the cover edges and corners.

 

Most of the minor defects that were originally present and downgraded by CGC were not even visible to me. So, the books were indeed Wow! and the noticeable visual improvement from the original... very minimal, if noticeable at all.

You're hitting on some rarely discussed underpinnings of the whole phenomenon.

 

Nitpicking HG for grading purposes is a choice. Pressing away the nits for grading purposes is choice.

 

In another universe, where vintage attributes are valued higher than a grade designation, I can imagine some conservator/examiner saying "No!"

 

Declaring "it's highly preserved, rare". Followed by "there's no reason to devalue it. Paper moves. Minor bends, curls, and dents...perfectly normal for a paper artifact." With a stern "post production do-overs cause a loss of what's special, what's vintage. This IS NOT a candidate for that, no need whatsoever."

 

My imagination, different universe. This one, a choice was made where grade trumps vintage.

[Aman619]

it may or probably is unrealistic. then again, when I hear people here say that, I feel it hastens the fulfilling prophesy aspect. I always hope they are just "voting" pessimistically against the outcome they wish for in hopes of, at least, being "right" when it all comes down. Like rooting against your team out loud with your closer on the mound in the 9th inning, so that when they ultimately lose, you at least "chose right" making you "smart", easing your pain disappointment at losing. And if so, I wish that those people who say its unrealistic to hope that pressing etc can be curtailed but really dont wish for that to be so would NOT abet the true Purveyors of Profitable Pressing game by saying so now while the outcome is still somewhat undecided. make sense?

[garthgantu]

Anyway, even if I did not communicate it in such a way that you understand my motivation (since you brought up my position as a "new-to-the-game presser" and alluded to the possibility that this post may serve my interests)... my main point is, as Jeff postulated, "what if through good intentions... education (in this case) leads to increased participation in pressing". If that's good or bad, or something else is just opinion.

Bruce: I didn't even know you were in the pressing game...if I did hear that somewhere, I'd already forgotten! My reference was not meant to refer to YOU, even though the word I used was 'you'... And regardless, I certainly wouldn't assume that your motivation in positing this question was based on swaying the folks on these boards.

 

Again, I'm not suggesting any positive attempt to bring unaware people "up to speed on any issue" is negative in and of itself. That said, this is a complicated world and sometimes unusual things happen.. even with good intentions. That's the gist of this post... how will people respond. Sorry if you don't care for the way I phrased it... I did my best.

I don't think it was my dislike for the way you phrased, but my failing to understand what you were driving at exactly. I think I get it now...you're asking this question from a theoretical standpoint, right? I'm happy to play along...

 

In that case, I think that raising awareness of pressing will almost certainly result in more people trying to do it themselves, and more people seeking the services of professionals who provide the service. Just as in a previous example, raising awareness of drugs and drug abuse among teens no doubt results in some of them trying substances they otherwise would not have known about.

 

Of course, I'd like to think that just as in the drug awareness example, far more good than harm will come of the effort to raise awareness of the 'enhancement' activities taking place in our hobby. It might take awhile, but I'm hopeful that will be the case.

[garthgantu]

My imagination, different universe. This one, a choice was made where grade trumps vintage.

 

I like the way your mind works, Davenport... when they start selling tix to that alternate universe, grab one for me and I'll pay ya back

[BronzeBruce13]

I see your point Dav. I can totally appreciate the universe you envision.

I too would "like" many things both within the hobby and more importantly in the world in general, to be "better" for lack of a more succinct word. Meaning... less influenced by money.

 

That said, where and when to make your stand in this "real universe" is a tough call for every individual.

 

In this case, I guess it comes down to whether you feel that pressing renders the unique vintage factors of a collectible meaningless or not. I understand the purist perspective that if its touched... its tainted, but that's just one rather hard lined vantage point IMHO. I personally don't feel this level of manipulation is offensive enough for me to draw the line behind it as unacceptable. When I weigh in what I perceive as a "real world" inability to detect and control it anyway... I end up where I'm at.

 

 

 

You're hitting on some rarely discussed underpinnings of the whole phenomenon.

 

Nitpicking HG for grading purposes is a choice. Pressing away the nits for grading purposes is choice.

 

In another universe, where vintage attributes are valued higher than a grade designation, I can imagine some conservator/examiner saying "No!"

 

Declaring "it's highly preserved, rare". Followed by "there's no reason to devalue it. Paper moves. Minor bends, curls, and dents...perfectly normal for a paper artifact." With a stern "post production do-overs cause a loss of what's special, what's vintage. This IS NOT a candidate for that, no need whatsoever."

 

My imagination, different universe. This one, a choice was made where grade trumps vintage.

[BronzeBruce13]

No offense Aman... but I am having a hard time processing that post.

If you try again, I'll try and answer it. I feel I'm true to myself and say what I feel... if that's what you're driving at.

 

I'm a Philly fan across the board for Gods sake! If I was a bandwagon jumper or wanted to be part of a winning team... I'd have ditched my teams decades ago after many heartaches.

 

 

 

it may or probably is unrealistic. then again, when I hear people here say that, I feel it hastens the fulfilling prophesy aspect. I always hope they are just "voting" pessimistically against the outcome they wish for in hopes of, at least, being "right" when it all comes down. Like rooting against your team out loud with your closer on the mound in the 9th inning, so that when they ultimately lose, you at least "chose right" making you "smart", easing your pain disappointment at losing. And if so, I wish that those people who say its unrealistic to hope that pressing etc can be curtailed but really dont wish for that to be so would NOT abet the true Purveyors of Profitable Pressing game by saying so now while the outcome is still somewhat undecided. make sense?

[Mr. Zipper]

Hey Steve,

 

would you comment on where you see things going on its present course? Use your own "list of possible reactions" is you don't care for mine.

 

It's just a discussion man.

 

No problem Bruce and I hope I didn't come off with an attitude in my response. I was somewhat rushed...

 

I think your categories are good, but I added some modifiers (in bold).

 

I will look at it from a political perspective. About 20% of the people have strong views on one side, and another 20% have strong views on the other side. Most people -- who tend to avoid conflict -- fall somewhere in the middle. Given this, here are my numbers:

 

(1) Indifference (little demand for change/due to they just don't care or unaware of what's going on) 40%

(2) Increased Demand for Disclosure (in significant numbers to make potential impact) 20%

(3) Resistance to disclosure (It's no big deal, none of your business, etc) 20%

(3) Increased Participation in the "Pressing Game" by the "Now Informed" 10%

(4) Spike in "Sell Offs" from Unhappy CGC Collectors / those just disgusted with hobby 10%

 

regards - Steve

 

[Dad&Son-migration]

(1) Indifference (little demand for change/due to they just don't care or unaware of what's going on) 20%

(2) Increased Demand for Disclosure (in significant numbers to make potential impact) 25%

(3) Resistance to disclosure (It's no big deal, none of your business, etc) 45%

(3) Increased Participation in the "Pressing Game" by the "Now Informed" 10%

(4) Spike in "Sell Offs" from Unhappy CGC Collectors / those just disgusted with hobby 0%

 

 

There's my view.. I don't think prices will change because it'll ultimately be accepted that books are pressed...plain and simple fact.