Good Intentions… will they result in the Positive, Unexpected or Negative?

[sborock]

I actually thought, by some microscopic or some other high tech way, that CGC could and did detect for pressing and cleaning. I had seen these notations on a purple restored label. I, like some others, did not know they were distinguishing between different forms of these processes.

 

Interesting point...

 

I've previously posited the notion that CGC's primary rationale for using Purple labels on restored books was based more on the goal of further distinguishing unrestored from restored books as a way of making the unrestored books even more appealing, rather than on helping the would-be buyer be aware of the work done on a restored book.

 

Now I'm wondering if the PLOD is also a stealthy way of indoctrinating some buyers into thinking that "whatever's noted on the PLOD label must be checked for on all books, and therefore a Blue label book must not have any of those kinds of 'manipulation' done to them." It's certainly misleading to have PLODs listing "pressed" or "cleaned" among the work done to them, and not list such work on a blue label book, as it suggests that no such work was done to the book in the blue label. A reasonable assumption for the casual buyer who doesn't hang on these boards 4 hours a day...but a bad assumption given the realities of the market and CGC's position in it.

 

We hoped that the Purple Restored label would help people in 2 ways.

 

1st: A clear understanding of what restoration was done to the book.

 

2nd: To help people who do not or only want restored books an easy way to identify them.

 

We dropped "pressed" from restored labels extremely early because it was confusing. When a cover had an aqueoes cleaning, it is almost always pressed.

 

 

Also, to answer another part of your post, I will take this directly from our website:

 

"Repairing comic books has been around in our hobby since the first comics were sold to the public. It is natural for people to want their books to look as new as possible or to remain intact so that they can continue to be read. Early in fandom history, simple and crude repairs were performed by the owner of the comic for these reasons. For example, a couple of pieces of tape were used to hold on the cover, a dab of Dad's wood glue was used to close a tear, some crayon made the cover look better, etc. As the hobby grew and comics became more expensive, the need to define and describe various repairs became apparent. Some repairs remained acceptable to collectors and were "grandfathered," such as tape. Most repairs, however, were defined as restoration.

Restoration can be broken down into two main types: treatments intended to prolong the existence of the comic book and treatments done for aesthetics. Both types of restoration involve the introduction of non-original material to create or facilitate a desired effect.

 

CGC defines restoration as treatments intended to return the comic book to a known or assumed state through the addition of non-original material. Examples of restoration include:

 

Color touch. Using pigment to hide color flecks, color flakes, and larger areas of missing color. Examples of pigments may include paint (acrylic, oil, watercolor, etc.), pencil crayon, pastel, pen, marker, white-out, etc. Color touch is sometimes called inpainting.

Pieces added (piece replacement). Added pieces to replace areas of missing paper. Piece replacement material can be non-original paper such as wood or cotton fiber papers, married from a donor comic book, or color-copied pieces. This process is sometimes called infilling.

Tear seals. Sealing a tear using an adhesive. An adhesive may be cellulose, chemical, or protein-based glues as well as anything that acts as an adhesive, such as saliva.

Spine split seals. Sealing a spine split using adhesive (adhesives are described above under "tear seals").

Reinforcement. A process by which a weak or split page or cover is reinforced with adhesive and reinforcement paper. Reinforcement papers are commonly wood or cotton fiber papers.

Cleaned (lightened). An aqueous process to lighten the paper color or remove soluble acids, often using chemical oxidation, solvents, or water. This process is sometimes called cleaned and pressed or C&P. Common chemicals used to lighten paper include benzene, acetone, xylene, sodium hypochlorite, hydrogen peroxide, chloramine-T, chlorine dioxide, sodium borohydrate, etc.

Re-glossed. Enhancing the cover gloss, typically through the application of canned re-glossing/art fixodent spray.

Non-additive processes such as dry cleaning (non-aqueous removal of dirt, soot, or other non-original surface material), pressing (removal or reduction of bends and creases), and tape removal, are not considered restoration by CGC. In accordance with hobby standards, the addition of tape is not considered restoration but will always be noted on the CGC label.

 

While we believe that tape should never be used on a comic book for any reason, our hobby has accepted that people used tape to keep comic books from falling apart. This measure was taken even before comics became collectibles. In the early days of fandom, some sellers stated that tape was not a defect and some collectors even accepted tape on mid grades. CGC will downgrade for tape, as we consider it a defect no matter why or when it was added.

 

Restoration has become a controversial issue in the comic book hobby because it is not always disclosed by sellers, but can dramatically affect the value of a comic book. CGC protects against this by ALWAYS disclosing detected restoration. In some cases, restoration is not readily detectible to novices or individuals lacking expertise in restoration detection. Even experienced hobbyists miss restoration when grading comic books. For this reason, CGC has made the restoration check a mandatory component of the CGC certification process."

 

We state very clearly what we do and do not consider restoration to any new hobbyist that takes the time to do the research........

[awe4one]

We state very clearly what we do and do not consider restoration to any new hobbyist that takes the time to do the research........

 

You don't clearly state in your post that CGC doesn't consider pressing or disassembly restoration...

 

Jim

[esquirecomics]

Comic Enhancement (v2) any undetectable (therefore realistically unmanageable) technique applied to a comic book that does not clearly fall into the restoration or preservation categories (ex; trimming, color touch, repair, etc.) and is employed to aesthetically improve the appearance of a comic for various reasons. This definition is currently limited to various (non-disassembled) pressing and cleaning techniques that are not, and arguably never will be, detectable if executed correctly (with skill). Therefore from a detection and grading perspective, they can only theoretically be identified and downgraded against when attempts to apply them are done poorly thereby causing visible damage.

 

Bruce, I would suggest deleting the references to the methods being undetectable. For one thing that is too broad a brush and respectfully inaccurate. Sometimes the method is detectable, even if the evidence is ultimately derived through research rather than a personal inspection. Nor do I think we can really conclude sitting here today that the methods will never be detectable (and who wants to worry about constantly changing the definition as new developments occur?).

 

Personally I have no qualms with acknowledging that the scope of the definition is in flux right now, i.e., some believe these methods to be restoration while others do not. But, as you accurately note, there is still something going on that appears to be deserving of a definition so that the community can at least be informed of the practices. Until recently the Overstreet Guide placed pressing, for example, squarely within its definition of restoration. Now it acknowledges the debate.

 

Based on my comments, the definition could go something like this:

 

Comic Enhancement (v2) [/b] any technique applied to a comic book that may, but does not currently, fall into the accepted definitions of "restoration" or "preservation" and is employed primarily to aesthetically improve a book's appearance. This definition is presently limited to various (non-disassembled) pressing and cleaning techniques that may not be detectable upon personal inspection. Typically these methods will not result in a downgrade of a book's condition unless visible damage occurs to the book.

 

That being said, I view pressing as unequivocally falling within any professional definition of restoration that I have seen, albeit in its most minimal form.

[sborock]

We state very clearly what we do and do not consider restoration to any new hobbyist that takes the time to do the research........

 

You don't clearly state in your post that CGC doesn't consider pressing or disassembly restoration...

 

Jim

 

Yes we do. From the top part of what I posted:

 

"Restoration can be broken down into two main types: treatments intended to prolong the existence of the comic book and treatments done for aesthetics. Both types of restoration involve the introduction of non-original material to create or facilitate a desired effect.

 

CGC defines restoration as treatments intended to return the comic book to a known or assumed state through the addition of non-original material."

 

And this from our FAQ's:

 

Non-additive procedures, such as pressing, dry cleaning and tape removal are not classified as restoration by CGC. Trimmed books are given an apparent grade, and, in accordance with CGC's policy, encapsulated with CGC's restored label.

[awe4one]

We state very clearly what we do and do not consider restoration to any new hobbyist that takes the time to do the research........

 

You don't clearly state in your post that CGC doesn't consider pressing or disassembly restoration...

 

Jim

 

Yes we do. From the top part of what I posted:

 

"Restoration can be broken down into two main types: treatments intended to prolong the existence of the comic book and treatments done for aesthetics. Both types of restoration involve the introduction of non-original material to create or facilitate a desired effect.

 

CGC defines restoration as treatments intended to return the comic book to a known or assumed state through the addition of non-original material."

 

And this from our FAQ's:

 

Non-additive procedures, such as pressing, dry cleaning and tape removal are not classified as restoration by CGC. Trimmed books are given an apparent grade, and, in accordance with CGC's policy, encapsulated with CGC's restored label.

 

OK...it's in your FAQ. I thought your post covered it all since it outlined the procedures...

 

What about disassembly? Where is that addressed as a non-restorative procedure?

 

Jim

[Ze-man]

Steve, you don't clearly state in your post why Brunch is only served on Sundays.

[awe4one]

Steve, you don't clearly state in your post why Brunch is only served on Sundays.

 

Unless you're eating said Brunch on old comics, I don't think it would apply...

 

Defining and explaining what is considered restoration or not is firmly in CGC's jurisidiction...

 

Personally, if CGC is clearly stating what is and isn't restoration from their standpoint then where disassembly is talked about is very relevant...

 

Jim

[Scheradon]

How interesting. If one was to replace the word Restoration with Pressing in this paragraph it could read like a statement that may be made in the near future...

 

Restoration has become a controversial issue in the comic book hobby because it is not always disclosed by sellers, but can dramatically affect the value of a comic book. CGC protects against this by ALWAYS disclosing detected restoration. In some cases, restoration is not readily detectible to novices or individuals lacking expertise in restoration detection. Even experienced hobbyists miss restoration when grading comic books. For this reason, CGC has made the restoration check a mandatory component of the CGC certification process."

 

Steve, how long has this information been stated this way on your web-site? Has it been the same since day one or has it evolved into the current statemnet? At what point did CGC decide to remove the "pressed" notes from the labels? For me, a one time "new" hobbyist, I was under the impression that pressing and cleaning were clearly forms of restoration and seeing both printed on a purple label was enough proof for me that they were being checked for. I never felt the need to check the FAQs here for that info until I joined the boards and had my eyes opened to all of this.

 

We state very clearly what we do and do not consider restoration to any new hobbyist that takes the time to do the research........

[Ze-man]

Steve, you don't clearly state in your post why Brunch is only served on Sundays.

 

Unless you're eating said Brunch on old comics, I don't think it would apply...

 

Defining and explaining what is considered restoration or not is firmly in CGC's jurisidiction...

 

Personally, if CGC is clearly stating what is and isn't restoration from their standpoint then where disassembly is talked about is very relevant...

 

Jim

 

It was just a joke Jim. You want to wrangle with Steve about disassembly, more power to ya. My bet is what he posted covers everything non additive, disassembly among them.

 

Besides, I have Brunch on my mind as I am feverishly calling all around town to get reservations for 9 on Mothers Day, so far it is not looking good. Does McDonalds do brunch?

 

[sborock]

"OK...it's in your FAQ. I thought your post covered it all since it outlined the procedures...

 

What about disassembly? Where is that addressed as a non-restorative procedure?

 

Jim"

 

This nit-picking is why I try to stay away from these questions on the boards. I never mind talking about these questions in person (ask anyone), because I almost never get that kind of nit-picking when having a real face to face conversation.

 

What part of "Non-additive procedures, such as pressing, dry cleaning and tape removal are not classified as restoration by CGC." do you not understand? It does not say "ONLY", it says "SUCH AS". We also do not state that a staple can be opened, put back down in the same place over a piece of the centerfold to re-attach it. Heck, that has been going on since day one (exaggeration) by kids just to keep their comic from falling apart. I am sure there are a few other things we have left off as well.......

[awe4one]

I don't know Steve...disassembly is a pretty radical procedure on a comic to just be lumped in to an "and others" category. And it's a much more invasive procedure than the ones you do mention.

 

If you don't think it's restoration, that's your call. But it should be mentioned on it's own and not assumed...

 

Jim

[sborock]

"And it's a much more invasive procedure than the ones you do mention."

 

We will have to aggree to disagree on this one.

[awe4one]

We will have to agree to disagree on this one.

 

That's cool...one day I'll have to make the trip south to Sarasota to get all my answers in one sitting...preferably in a bar-type atmosphere.

 

Jim

[sborock]

We will have to agree to disagree on this one.

 

That's cool...one day I'll have to make the trip south to Sarasota to get all my answers in one sitting...preferably in a bar-type atmosphere.

 

Jim

 

That works for me!

[LordRahl]

I don't know Steve...disassembly is a pretty radical procedure on a comic to just be lumped in to an "and others" category. And it's a much more invasive procedure than the ones you do mention.

 

If you don't think it's restoration, that's your call. But it should be mentioned on it's own and not assumed...

 

Jim

 

Could you explain how disassembly in and of itself is restoration? What about taking a book apart constitutes resto to you?

[Mr. Zipper]

Could you explain how disassembly in and of itself is restoration? What about taking a book apart constitutes resto to you?

 

As FFB astutely put it, "Removing the staples is damaging the book. Putting them back in is repairing the damage." (paraphrased)

[LordRahl]

Not to nitpick here but as far as I can tell, DISassembly does not involve putting anything together. Before I get called obtuse for failing to make the assumption that REassembly would follow, I still don't see what is restorative about reassembling a book you just took apart. Same book, same staples, nothing added, nothing taken away. Tape is used to "repair" books also and is viewed as damage not resto.

[garthgantu]

LordRahl:

 

I would respectfully suggest that taking a staple, 'unbending' it so it's flat or in a "U" shape to enable it to be removed from the comic book, and then re-inserting it and bending the staples back into place, you've not only 'fixed' the previously unbent staple so that it once again keeps the pages from falling out; you've also done some amount of damage to the staple itself. Take a cheap, dime-a-dozen staple and bend it a few times...you'll see 'stress' start to manifest at the points where the bending is occurring...

 

What's even more bemusing about this particular point is that as I recall, at the time when CGC did consider some forms of pressing to be verboten, it was always in the context of disassembly. Of course, the rationale at the time was "well, no one would disassemble a book merely to press it; the disassembly would be done primarily so the book could undergo forms of cleaning (i.e., wet cleaning) that CGC considers to be restoration." But even so, I do recall arguments being made specifically around the disassembly itself - in relation to pressing.

 

CGC's definition of restoration is a bit of a moving target - which is understandable at least from the standpoint of "things change, techniques improve or come into practice on a regular basis," etc. But it's also a moving target in the sense that CGC can always change its mind about what is and isn't resto. That's CGC's prerogative, I don't begrudge them that - I just think it makes for confusion in the marketplace.

[BronzeBruce13]

Valid points Gar...

 

For comic relief though (that's a joke in itself har har)

I never thought I'd see the day where we would be talking about "staple stress"... what's next?... non-surface damaging metal indents that can be reversed be heating the staple up?

 

[LordRahl]

I don't disagree with any of what you say. But if I'm reading what you said correctly, no where do you imply that disassembly is resto. Restorative procedures such as aqueous cleaning while a book is disassembled constitute resto but not the act of disassembly itself. There are assumptions being made that disassembly of a book is done in order to restore a book. While this may be true, the act of disassembly itself is not restorative in any way, shape or form. Technically you can diassemble a book and leave it like that, with no staples. Surely no rational person would argue that constitutes resto, would they? This is sort of moot, my original question was directed at Awe4one since he chose to continously harp on why CGC hadn't SPECIFICALLY addressed disassembly. I was trying to point out that his harping was rather tiresome and completely unfounded since the act of disassembly itself, which is what he kept refering to, is not resto. Since CGC does not consider pressing to be resto (commonly known fact on the boards), and disassembly is NOT resto why in the world would they specifically mention it? I do by the way agree that there is confusion in the marketplace re: resto and how CGC views certain things. For example, staple replacement used to be viewed as resto by CGC but is now not and books that only have replaced staples are put in GLOD holders when early on they were in PLOD holders.