RE-Reading BRONZE/MODERN Classics AGAIN years later... Better or worse?

[Zonker]

No one has yet mentioned the Archie Goodwin / Walt Simonson Manhunter series from Detective Comics #437-443. Goodwin was a great super-hero writer, but this work was at a whole 'nother level, the equal to the scripts he did for the early Warren mags outside the comics code restrictions. And Manhunter was Simonson's first regular strip-- in my opinion he's never been as great once he was given 20+ pages to work with. The original Manhunter strips crammed more story and art into 8 pages than anything this side of Eisner's Spirit.

 

It definitely holds up today as well as it read in 1974.

 

Cheers,

Z.

[shiverbones]

i have never read those manhunter's but all i hear is praise about them. I have been rereading warren mags, and have been loving those. Especially the Bruce Jones stories, and the really early Goodwin ones.

[Proverbs22_2]

No one has yet mentioned the Archie Goodwin / Walt Simonson Manhunter series from Detective Comics #437-443. Goodwin was a great super-hero writer, but this work was at a whole 'nother level, the equal to the scripts he did for the early Warren mags outside the comics code restrictions. And Manhunter was Simonson's first regular strip-- in my opinion he's never been as great once he was given 20+ pages to work with. The original Manhunter strips crammed more story and art into 8 pages than anything this side of Eisner's Spirit.

 

It definitely holds up today as well as it read in 1974.

 

Cheers,

Z.

 

This is one that I almost brought up as well, but didn't because I never read the end...

 

i understand that it was re-printed in Baxter Format, around 1988-89?

 

-Joe

[Zonker]

This is one that I almost brought up as well, but didn't because I never read the end...

 

i understand that it was re-printed in Baxter Format, around 1988-89?

 

-Joe

 

Yes, that's about right, should be available on eBay. There was also another collected edition sometime in the last 3 or 4 years. In this most recent edition, there is a new Manhunter story done especially for the book. Only problem: Archie Goodwin was dead. Simonson drew the book from a plot he and Archie worked out years before, and there was no dialogue since no Archie to do it. This sequel was not bad, it did not ruin the previous classic, but really didn't bring much to the party. As I mentioned before, Walt devotes 20 pages to a somewhat thin story-- might have been another classic had he compressed it into 10-15.

 

DC also reversed Walt's intended order of the stories, which did not help. The new, wordless story comes last in the printed version, and the last page of the new story is a reprint of the first page of the first 1973 story, also reprinted in that same collected edition. Made no sense. The original idea was to print the new story first, even though it occured chronologically last-- and the idea is the original 7 stories are then reprinted as a flashback, the original saga now being a story narrated by the Batman to Commissioner Gordon. That was one of the hallmarks of Archie & Walt's original series: it played with flashbacks and flash-forwards to great effect.

 

All in all, I'd still recommend the recent edition, but the late 80s version may be more available. And my strongest recommendation is to seek out reading copies of the original Detective #437-443: you'll not find 7 better comics packages: Manhunter, great Batman stories (many also written by Goodwin) and the best collection of Golden and Silver Age DC stuff of any of the 100 Page Super Spectaculars.

 

 

[BronzeBruce13]

Currently rereading -

 

Alan Moore's Swamp Thing - Amazing run but getting a bit bogged down in the later issues.

 

Miracleman

 

Crossfire and Blackhawk - I LOVE the Evainer - Spiegle stuff

 

Grimjack - Fun stuff

 

Don Rosa Gladstone stuff.

 

 

Miracleman is a good idea, but I don't have all of it either.

 

I read 'ol Grimjack back in the day and Badger too. In fact, I came up with the a Badger character before they did. Can you tell I was a Wolverine freak? Mine had a black and white costume and had 1 permanent claw and one that he could shoot an retract (to swing on or use as a long distance weapon)

[joe_collector]

Deleted because I forgot for a minute what happened before I took a break the last time. For what it's worth, I'm pretty sure mine was just a 1970's sci-fi update of Bulletman (or similar) anyway.

[500Club]

[BronzeBruce13]

Do you still have the sketch?

I know I have mine up in the attic along with my other creations.. Sunburn, Friction, the Praymantis (first amputee hero before Box), Badger, Tomahawk, Dragonfly, Volcano, etc.

 

it might be quite hillarious to post them at some point.

 

 

---------

 

I'm not sure why you deleted it? I'm sure quite a few of us had ideas for heroes before they surfaced. I never sent mine in or i might have felt "ripped off" as well. I just figure they have hundreds of "potential characters" in a folder for possible future use. They had to think of some of the obvious names... "the Badger" was one such name .. an animal just as, if not more ferocious than a Wolverine... and just as cool a name... just 2 creative minds exploring a similar idea.

[joe_collector]

I believe I do, but my sketchbooks are likely at my parent's in storage. Each time I visit, they make me cart more away, so it's only a matter of time.

 

I did find one early one in a drawer I was cleaning out, and I found it pretty amazing how well I could riff on my fave artists at that point in time.

[BronzeBruce13]

me too... at least the poses. When/if I post scans.. it will be cool to see if anyone can identify the swiped pose/character as well.

[BronzeBruce13]

..just completed the DD "Born Again" TPB.

I actually never read that short Miller/Mazzuccelli run before ..maybe an issue or 2 at best.

 

I enjoyed it very much. I still have to get used to Miller as a writer when I'm not seeing his art at the same time. Mazzuccelli "seemed" to be favoring Miller's art style when compared to his "Year One" work. I haven't seen enough of him to know what his style is since they looked very much different from one another in the 2 works I observed.

 

Great story, well-crafted, excellent build up, anticipation. There was no big showdown with the Kingpin, just a "turning of the tables"... thanks to Ben. I was expecting a battle at the end, but was impresssed that Miller did not go with a standard physical conforntation and victory... and left the war to continue with no winner.

 

9 out of 10 smileys...

 

(with Miller art, it would have received a 10 I'm betting). Mazzuccelli's art was good, but it did not work for me as well as it did with "Year One"

 

[Foolkiller]

bruce... it's funny you should say that you liked Mazz's art on Year One better than on Born again... I was actually looking at them both last night and was thinking the opposite. I thought Mazz's art was just more suited to the whole story than it was on year one (although I enjoyed both greatly)...

 

Glad to see you're rereading all these classic tales... I enjoy them a lot more when reading them a second or third time too! I recently reread my Trial of Galactus tpb from the Byrne FF run... also a great read.

[BronzeBruce13]

I think Mazz's art on "Year One" was appropriate for the mood of the tale and fit the older, "back in time" aspect of the story as if it was illustrated years ago. I wouldn't care for the style applied to much else. I "get" what he was trying to do.

 

In "Born Again" his art was better technically or had more appeal if that make sense. If I had to choose a style to see on modern stories there's no question. I was not comparing the styles against each other standing alone as illustrations. I was comparing their effectiveness in regards to the story/mood/time period/etc of the story he was conveying.

 

Mazz "seemed" to be intentionally trying to give it a "Miller feel". It was OK, but if I'm not getting real Miller, I don't want a mimic when I can see the difference. I coud be in the minority on that one... but thats what struck me.

[delekkerste]

..just completed the DD "Born Again" TPB. I actually never read that short Miller/Mazzuccelli run before ..maybe an issue or 2 at best.

 

Wha???

 

Dave (Dam60) also told me he hadn't read any of those issues either...well, I made sure that changed (he's at least read #227 now).

 

I think Miller's 3 best DD issues were #168, #181 and #227. If any of you were wondering how #227 became the highest ranking Daredevil story in the "Top 100 Marvels of All Time" survey in 2001, it was because guys like me voted for it!! DD #181 is one of my top 3 books of all-time, but I knew that it would make the list without any problem, so I cast my vote for #227 instead in my 5 picks. Anybody who hasn't read at least that issue must go out and pick it up immediately.

 

While "Batman: Year One" may be a tighter work than "Born Again" overall, DD #227 is, IMO, better than any single issue in the Batman #404-407 run. If you don't believe me, go read DD #227 again and show me where I'm wrong!

 

Gene

[BronzeBruce13]

I was talking about Mazz's art... I feel it hit them mark better in Year One. I never said I liked either series overall better than the other... I just heaped a great deal of praise on both.

[COI]

Daredevil #227 is great.

 

But DD #228 is probably my favorite comic of all time. It's one of the first DD comics I ever read as a kid, and it has gripped me ever since. When looking at the entire history of DD, I think #228 is, and always will be rock-bottom for Matt Murdock. His life was already destroyed, and to add insult to injury he gets his kicked when he tries to go after Fisk. After that, he's no longer a hero, just a "Pariah" struggling for survival, like a rat digging through trash. As young as I was, I understood how this book was different from any other super hero book I had ever read.

 

I love the S.A because of the history and collectibility. But because I came up on books like DD #227 and #228, it's almost impossible for me to read a lot of that older stuff.

 

I also recommend these 2 books(and #229 for that matter) to everyone, especially if you need some reading therapy after watching the DD movie.

 

You should see how beat up my DD #228 reader is......

[delekkerste]

I was talking about Mazz's art... I feel it hit them mark better in Year One. I never said I liked either series overall better than the other... I just heaped a great deal of praise on both

 

Oops...miscommunication here. Aside from the 1st sentence, the rest of the post was addressed to a general audience and not referring to your post BB!!

 

Gene

[BronzeBruce13]

I just thought you were hittin' the bottle again

 

I loved the trade.. how man issues was that run seemed like 5-7?

[delekkerste]

I love the S.A because of the history and collectibility. But because I came up on books like DD #227 and #228, it's almost impossible for me to read a lot of that older stuff.

 

I feel the same way.

 

I also recommend these 2 books(and #229 for that matter) to everyone, especially if you need some reading therapy after watching the DD movie.

 

Oh yeah...I think all of the "Born Again" issues before Nuke took center stage were spectacular...not that the Nuke portion of the storyline was bad, but compared to the sheer and utter brilliance of the few issues that preceded it, it was a bit of a let-down.

 

Gene

[delekkerste]

I loved the trade.. how man issues was that run seemed like 5-7?

 

Born Again was DD #227-233 (7 issues). However, many people don't realize that Miller has a co-plot credit for the mostly forgettable issue #226 (versus the Gladiator...again) and of course he did that done-in-one "The Stranger" story in issue #219 (pretty good, though I didn't think Big John Buscema was the right artist for it).

 

Gene