Do you think Hulk #181 is currently overvalued?

[BronzeBruce13]

Keep in mind on this specific book.. nearly EVERYONE has been WRONG thus far

 

The important two words in this statement are the last ones.

 

 

Notice I used them though and left open the possillity I could be proven wrong (might want to try it some time)...

 

I also did not make statements I couldn't support... nor did I suggest that I "know all" or "what is happening for sure" concerning events I don't know the answer to.

 

Point is EVERYONE has been wrong to date... so I take all views on this matter with a grain of salt, as they say.. even yours.

[joe_collector]

Conspiracy Speculation?... How do you know this as fact in the sportscard and coin grading market firstly? I don't pretend to know a thing about those markets... enlighten me.

 

I can't remember the specifics (disgruntled employee?) but some of the sportscard grading companies were shown to be limiting the number of ultra-high grade cards in an effort to maintain pricing and speculator activity. I believe there was some serious fallout (firings?) from this scandal, but some of the cardees may know more of the specifics.

 

Like I said before, smart business (if you don't get caught), not a conspiracy theory.

[Rip]

I've heard the theory thrown around for certain heavily submitted books.

I believe its called false ranking or false tiering.

 

[BronzeBruce13]

Conspiracy Speculation?... How do you know this as fact in the sportscard and coin grading market firstly? I don't pretend to know a thing about those markets... enlighten me.

 

I can't remember the specifics (disgruntled employee?) but some of the sportscard grading companies were shown to be limiting the number of ultra-high grade cards in an effort to maintain pricing and speculator activity. I believe there was some serious fallout (firings?) from this scandal, but some of the cardees may know more of the specifics.

 

Like I said before, smart business (if you don't get caught), not a conspiracy theory.

 

 

Maybe, I'm not convinced yet.. did this "disgruntled employee" bring conclusive proof to support his claim?... is it possible a disgruntled employee could just suggest that to harm the rep. of the company? Why not ask a "cardee" friend to answer the question in more detail. I'm curious and I'd also like to know which company it was and if it has ties to other graded markets.

 

I'd also point out even if one company was proven disreputable, it can't be assumed they all are... can it?

[BronzeBruce13]

I've heard the theory thrown around for certain heavily submitted books.

I believe its called false ranking or false tiering.

 

Elaborate please... I'm unfamilar with the terms?

[Bonds25]

The bottom line is that the value for Hulk #181 will start declining soon as more and more high grade books hit the census. Take a look at any other book that sold for crazy dollars a year or 2 ago, and compare the prices now. People aren't going to spend 20K for a modern book when they know there are over 100 comparable copies out there. Now check out the auctions on the DCs I just posted. Those books NEVER show up on Ebay in high grade, and will hold their values, if not increase in the future.

[Rip]

"False tiering" is where you falsely manipulate a census to LIMIT the number of high grade material to create a healther market situation. Creating a FALSE tier system.

Where as if you had lets say

20 9.9's

50 9.8's

150 9.6's

instead of lets say

1 9.9

3 9.8

50 9.6's

you would have less incentive to send in a book to make gobs of money.

It creates more of a speculators market by limiting the higher grade tiers.

Im not saying CGC does this by the way AT ALL.

 

[BronzeBruce13]

The bottom line is that the value for Hulk #181 will start declining soon as more and more high grade books hit the census. Take a look at any other book that sold for crazy dollars a year or 2 ago, and compare the prices now. People aren't going to spend 20K for a modern book when they know there are over 100 comparable copies out there. Now check out the auctions on the DCs I just posted. Those books NEVER show up on Ebay in high grade, and will hold their values, if not increase in the future.

 

Matt, the logic is sound, no doubt... but the results have not followed suit for an extended period of time (compared to your general example) and even still. That's the point I'm making, I'm not contesting the logic you and others have offered and have agreed with it a few times in this thread.

 

This book has been, and is an anomaly of sorts. It has defied all logic. There are still many variables and unknowns that may come into play as well

 

Let's just say.... watching Hulk 181's performance over the last 3 years+ has been, and will continue to be very interesting.

 

[BronzeBruce13]

"False tiering" is where you falsely manipulate a census to LIMIT the number of high grade material to create a healther market situation. Creating a FALSE tier system.

Where as if you had lets say

20 9.9's

50 9.8's

150 9.6's

instead of lets say

1 9.9

3 9.8

50 9.6's

you would have less incentive to send in a book to make gobs of money.

It creates more of a speculators market by limiting the higher grade tiers.

Im not saying CGC does this by the way AT ALL.

 

 

Thanks Rip,

I don't "think" even Vince was suggesting that level of manipulation or conspiracy.

I got the impression he meant that CGC is intentionally limiting the numbers of the "highest attainable grade" (9.8) to get through the door. Such as... not giving some deserved 9.8's the grade because they feel there are too many of them and that by doing so the rest of the gradeds below may be affected even at their true numbers and thus submissions would fall.

 

I don't buy it either. At worst, I feel top tier keys "may" have a slightly adjusted scale towards being more strictly graded since they are high-profile and well-scrutinized... BUT that's specualation based on the many HG keys I've seen.

 

 

 

 

 

[Rip]

Honestly I don't believe it either. It's a REALLY nasty subject to talk about.

The simple mention of it spreads distrust.

(Sigh)......I should just shut up on these things........

[greggy]

[Rip]

I knew you were going to do that!!!!!

[BronzeBruce13]

I knew you were going to do that!!!!!

 

That makes 2 of us... but Greggy found an old Flash favorite of mine from my youth and has agreed to give it to me the next time I buy a CGC book off him... so I'll let it slide... this time

[greggy]

I knew you were going to do that!!!!!

 

That makes 2 of us... but Greggy found an old Flash favorite of mine from my youth and has agreed to give it to me the next time I buy a CGC book off him... so I'll let it slide... this time

[Rip]

[delekkerste]

ALSO...please stop making comparisons to Nasdaq... I really don't want to receive anymore anonymous scathing emails ripping your sphincter regarding stock-market/comic-market parallels... I'll tell you more later

 

BB, I could care less what the Kool-Aid drinkers out there say about me...I haven't seen any evidence from my critics that they are capable of much original, critical and/or analytical thought. In fact, the higher the reading on the "Anti-Gene Hostile React-o-Meter", the more I'm convinced that I'm right.

 

I bet I get far more anonymous scathing e-mails from the "silent majority" who agree with me and love to poke fun at utter inanity of the perma-bulls and market cheerleaders out there. I have received tons of positive e-mails about my former "Me" page market commentary on eBay, including from very prominent collectors & dealers that I know a lot of you deal with!

 

I've also received numerous PMs from fellow members on these Boards agreeing with me (they're just not as vocal as I am because I'm sure they don't like dealing with this hater bull from the sheep & lemmings out there). I've even been told by a couple of Board members, who don't always agree with me, that at least they respect the intellectual integrity of my viewpoint.

 

As for the stock, commodity, tulip bulb, coin, sportscard, fine art, comic art, toy and other market parallels I have made in the past, you are DEAD WRONG if you think that's an apples and oranges comparison to CGC comics. The names of the markets and traded goods may change, but the tendency of man to let his greed get the better of him at the top of boom periods and let his fear dominate near the bottom of busts will NEVER change.

 

Gene

[Bonds25]

We mostly agree with you Gene, but you're a freakin' broken record. You don't need to remind us every 3 days that the CGC market is going to crash and that we're all going to lose our money. We ALL know your position, and like I said, partially agree with it in some regards, but don't need to have it regurgitated to us ad nauseum.

[delekkerste]

We ALL know your position, and like I said, partially agree with it in some regards, but don't need to have it regurgitated to us ad nauseum.

 

That's only partially fair...for each one of my posts on the market (the number of which is but a tiny fraction of what I used to write in the past), there are 20-odd posts on "Is Hulk #181 a good investment", "What S.A. books can I buy now for big profits", "Did I get a good deal at $7K on my X-Men #94", "Should I invest in USM #1 white cover", etc. Somebody's got to represent the other side.

 

Also, if you haven't realized it yet, not everyone is as sensible and level-headed as you are, Matt. I am quite sure that a large number of people out there do *not* agree with anything I say in the slightest (I'm quite sure that some of those very same people are barely able to understand multi-syllabic words). There are many Board members, dealers and eBayers who have drunk deep of the Kool-Aid and are 100% emotionally and financially vested in the cult of super-high grade CGC comics. They spew hate & vitriol and become erratic and irrational at the mere mention of my name or anything else that would even hint of defiling the Temple of the Almighty Plastic Slab. Kind of like this guy>>>>

 

Gene

[BronzeBruce13]

What's with all the BOLD text and harsh reply?

 

 

Gene, my friend.. If your Uncle had Boobs, he'd be your Aunt!

 

Apples...Oranges

 

ALSO...please stop making comparisons to Nasdaq... I really don't want to receive anymore anonymous scathing emails ripping your sphincter regarding stock-market/comic-market parallels... I'll tell you more later

 

My post to you was clearly "having fun"... and the anonymous email I received out of the blue several days ago in reference to a conversation we were having on the forum was one I intended to mention to you.. and now was just a convenient opportunity to mention it. Perhaps I should have just mentioned that in PM in hindsight.

 

As far as the references to the stock market, I honestly can't relate to the comparisons very well (whether they are right or wrong) because I don't have the same feel for stocks. I'm of the opinion that stocks and collectibles have differences (like one is only for investment, the other is in some cases, but is also a valued piece of nostalgia that people want to own, sometimes permanently)... that's what I mean about "uncle boobs" and "apples and oranges". I would also politely point out you've brought that "Nasdaq substitute comics" parallel to me more than a few times already if you recall (and I still don't get it entirely as explained) but I've sure seen it enough now to know that you feel there is a parallel of some sort.

 

I also don't believe I said you were wrong about anything specifically here... and as you know.. I have both agreed and disagreed with you in the past depending on the subject. I made no judgement concerning your credibility, nor suggested no one agrees with anything you say.

 

Not sure where all the "bold fire" just came from ...may I suggest reading a comic to unwind?

[Rip]

I could care less what the Kool-Aid drinkers out there say about me...

 

I like grape.....