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Come on now! CGC versus Raw for High-Grade Books?????

Started by mlovest,

42 posts in this topic

mlovest

mlovest

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Exactly my point! Why would an established dealer not take the time to have a high-value comic graded. It makes me suspicious unless they have a great reputation. We've seen many posts on this forum about good versus bad dealers, but even the best dealers with terrific grading reputations allow returns. Grading is definitely subjective, but the third-party angle takes out some of the worry.

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mlovest

mlovest

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Allow me to give a diffeent angle on this debate.

I am a small pt dealer who does 4-6 shws a year. Don't spend a fortune buying new inventory so if I sell enuff to pay for my table,make a couple of hundred bucks and maybe use my "Dealer discount" to get a few books I need I consider the show a success.

Lets say I have around 500 real nice HG books that really should be CGC'd. To submit them all would break my budget. Shatter it in reality. How do I choose which books to submit? If I send in 25 books,at a cost of about $1000 dollars, will I be assurred these books will sell next show and I will get a nice return on my investment,or will people now look at my 475 non-CGC'd books and wonder what is wrong with them that I have not CGC'd them.

Have you ever thought about the cost of CGCing an entire inventory? It's very daunting. If you send the books in on the economy plan it will be months before you see them.

What do you sell at the shows that come up while your books are in transit?

I can't speak for others but I am telling you there is no way I am spending 20,000 dollars to CGC books for the chance to do a few shows a year.

 

Bill,

 

You make a terrific point here, but again, the better books should be graded. The huge difference in profit potential for graded books more than makes up the grading costs and the opportunity costs of having your inventory sitting at CGC or in the mail awaiting the Economy grade. I have never tried to sell comics at a show, and it would be a different issue if the buyer can actually see the book. Howver, I still can't spot restoration so the third party "seal of approval" would make me more likely to trust the grade of the comic. Heck, Bob Storms has been collecting and grading and selling comics for years, but his website tells of a couple of times when he was ripped off big bucks as comics he bought turned out to be restored.

 

Mike

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mlovest

mlovest

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I am in the minority here but I think if you can't reconize a superior comic when you see it, and need CGC to tell you its a 9.8,then maybe you are in over your head and should go hang in the shallow end for a bit longer.

 

Good point, but even dealers with lots of experience get taken by expert restoration. Every year we hear about multi-miliion-dollar paintings turning out to be forgeries at the top museums. And these are the absolute experts at restoration and forgeries. If the experts can be fooled, how can I possibly hope to be certain that a NM ASM 25 is truly 9.4, or does it have a slight color touch that would drive it's value to most buyers through the floor?!

 

My other point would be that as collectors and investors, buyers and sellers of comics, we want everyone to confident that they are getting what they are paying for. Some folks will pay hundreds of dollars for common modern comics like Ultimate SM #1 in NM. I would never do this, but as long as you know you're getting a high grade un-restored copy, then you can make an informed decision.

 

Mike

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mlovest

mlovest

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Spoken like a true dealer. "I am telling you the book is a 9.0 and I don't care what CGC says". Is that the attitude? I will explain the trend from my perspective. Everyday some buyer is wising up to the fact that they are buying overgraded raw books and is moving to the CGC material. Yes, its more expensive but I have a confirmed independent grader telling me I am off on my grading and therefore overpaying for the book. I still have to decide whether I like CGC grading before I buy the book but I love independent confirmation. CGC has contributed greatly to the hobby. I was never willing to buy $1000/2000/10000 books before CGC came onstream. Today I have a little more confidence. In todays market I have a better idea what I am buying and receiving the price for what I am selling. I don't have to play in your arena and won't. I suspect buyers are choosing my game whether it pleases you or not.

 

BINGO! Exactly! Because of third party grading, you're confident to get into the comics market as a buyer with much less fear. Look at used cars: I would never buy a used car without having a trusted mechanic check it over or at least buying it through a trusted dealer with a warranty. Why would high-dollar comics be any different?!

 

Mike

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joe_collector

joe_collector

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Here's my take:

 

I'm no big fan of CGC, but when it comes to high-grade, valuable comics, anyone who pays near-CGC prices for Raw is a butthead. CGC prices are already inflated, and when I see dealers selling a raw NM comic for $1K when a CGC 9.4 brings $1K, it boils my blood.

 

If these guys thought it could hit CGC 9.6, it would already have been slabbed, and if it is submitted and comes back 9.4, you're better off with the CGC copy in the first place, especially since many of these NM copies are actually CGC 9.0 to 9.2.

 

As a buyer, I refuse to take this sort of financial risk, without a significant discount off the CGC slab at the dealer's stated grade. Some dealers have spoken of the "cost of slabbing", but if they aren't prepared to take the financial burden, why should I? If I am prepared to take the financial risk, why am I not compensated for that with a lower price? This "CGC minus the Grading Fee" pricing is simplistic and prays on the weak minded who somehow think they're getting a deal.

 

The last point is to try, as a buyer, to move these "dealer graded NM" copies without the aid of a CGC slab. Dealers have some sort of rep in many cases, and can command these stupid raw prices. As a Joe Nobody, you have no rep and even big EBay dealers don't have the pinache to hit CGC prices on Raw material. Now do the same for a CGC 9.4 and see how it creates a higher level of "buyer confidence", and a much higher return. It's also easier to play trends with CGC copies than with raw, as many ASM 129 hoarders have found out of late.

 

Sure, brain-dead speculators are buying this "NM" raw stuff for Guide multiples and are causing much of the problem, and then sending it in to CGC and hoping for a gift. Whenever I see a big EBay buyer selling off his recently-graded CGC 6.0-8.0 copies, it's not hard to see he got snookered big-time. Even better are the guys with Restored Silver or Bronze copies, accompanied by a nice note about the crackhead seller refusing a refund.

 

Buying high-grade raw at fair prices is still something I do. Buying high-grade raw for anywhere near CGC prices is pure stupidity.

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fazman

fazman

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Man, this is a great thread ! Everybodys' got a different take about this topic and everybodys' opinions are valid. I guess what it comes down to is, you, the buyer.If you want a book bad enough,be it Raw or CGC'ed , you will decide if you want to spend the $$$'s to buy it. If your happy with the purchase, life is good. grin.gif

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shadroch

shadroch

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I completely agree that paying multiples of guide for most raw books is economic suicide,but as with all rules, there are exceptions to this also.

If I are going to be spending much more than $1000, I would most certainly want the book to be slabbed as protection against restoration. It is in the lower sales that I don't think it is needed. When I see books like MTU 61 9.4 or Super-villian Teamup 1 7.0 it really makes me wonder if the hobby has taken a wrong turn.

With CGC only a couple of years old and many nice collections not having been submitted, I feel it is folly to pay multiples of guide for what is today the highest graded copy.

 

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jkrk

jkrk

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Now I understand. I cannot say anymore because the aliens are looking to see what other books I have. At night I unplug the computer so they can't secretly read my E-mails. In addition I have unplugged the printer because duiring the day they are using the paper.

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BachelorOfComix

BachelorOfComix

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Now I understand. I cannot say anymore because the aliens are looking to see what other books I have. At night I unplug the computer so they can't secretly read my E-mails. In addition I have unplugged the printer because duiring the day they are using the paper.

alien.gif

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mlovest

mlovest

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I think you're exactly on track, JC. There's no reason to take the risk when it's not that big a deal to get the books graded in the first place. Buying raw at reasonable prices is still a great way to add to your collection, but for high-dollar comics, you need a restoration check and impartial grading to add confidence to the deal. That means a more satisfied buyer, and more profit for the seller.

 

Mike

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