Come on now! CGC versus Raw for High-Grade Books?????

[mlovest]

OK, I've seen posts that discussed this issue before, but I wanted to get a fresh update from you forum members. I don't understand why a big-time or regular dealer would ever sell a high dollar value comic that wasn't CGC graded. I understand that in a pinch, you can sell a raw comic on eBay in days, but I'm talking about dealers in it for the long haul and to make a profit. Very rarely you will note eBayers or dealers that are well respected and can get pretty good prices for raw books (Bob Storms, Marnin Rosenberg, etc.) through the mail, but for the most part, how many of you are 100% comfortable to buy non-graded high-dollar comics? The price differences are often significant multiples of guide higher for CGC comics than for raw books.

 

One theory I have is that many comic sellers over grade their books—OK, this is not a new idea. I don't mean they are deliberately trying to rip buyers off necessarily (though some obviously do—Mile High for instance), but when I look at one of my books, it's hard to be really objective and note all the dings and flaws. Even high res scans aren't good enough to grade a book versus having it in your hands.

 

So back to the question, given that many buyers are rightly concerned and dubious of the true grade for a comic, which generally results in much higher prices for graded comics, why do dealers sell raw high-dollar comics?

 

Thanks!

Mike

 

[HooDeeDoo]

Quite often Harley will get a high grade collection and he'll offer the books raw at a very high multiple - often higher than a "standard" CGC multiple. If you know how to cherry pick, you can sometimes snag a 9.8 for a fair multiple. However you can get burned like when he got the White Mountain run of Strange Tales and he was selling them for 8x and a person who shall remain nameless bought all the early ones and most of them came back 9.2 and lower.

 

ouch

[aardvark88]

Many titles have not yet been reprinted & sometimes dealers don't want to pay the Cgc tax on their back issues. Sometimes a raw comic may have spectacular cover gloss but may have a structural flaw knocking it down to Cgc 8.5 or worse. The slab would just hinder the ink reflectivity as a selling point.

[mlovest]

Good point about the gloss, but for a high-dollar comic, you could afford to submit it and then take it out ofthe slab if it comes back with a grade you don't agree with. In fact, you could re-submit and roll the dice...

 

There are always exceptions, but assuming you are trying to sell a NM ASM 25, you better have it graded if you want to get the big bucks.

[mlovest]

I think I can pick out top-quality picks or cherry pick the best, but I can't spot restoration and other subtle dings which might impact the grade for most collectors/investors. Therefore, you case would make it even more important to get the comics graded. In fact, you might want to rush the books through grading to meet the sellers deadline for returns...

 

Mike

[jkrk]

Here's my take. The books being bought raw are priced considered by the dealer to be fully priced less the CGC payment. Meaning the book is a $150 dollar book and the dealer is selling the book for $120. The dealer has no interest in putting $20 into a $150 book in which he might not receive a full price. The buyer is receiving a 20% discount and the dealer has shifted the grading risk and the restoration risk to the buyer. The dealer is out a few dollars above the CGC price but has no worries once you pay. On a higher grade book, the dealer has had the time to look at the book under a microscope and knows what he has. Sometimes the dealer makes a mistake but I'll take his side all the time. The buyer is generally receiving what he pays for but is not receiving any bargain. That's my view.

[Shield]

Good point about the gloss, but for a high-dollar comic, you could afford to submit it and then take it out ofthe slab if it comes back with a grade you don't agree with. In fact, you could re-submit and roll the dice...

 

There are always exceptions, but assuming you are trying to sell a NM ASM 25, you better have it graded if you want to get the big bucks.

 

Of course, you're assuming high dollar=high grade. Some people may pay more for scarce low grade golden age books, with our without being graded. Who cares if CGC officially says "Yep, that Pep #22 is a VG-". It'll fetch a ridiculous price either way, and may go higher if unslabbed.

[Aman619]

I get wary when a known dealer has unslabbed books on their wall. Sure, maybe they didnt have time to get it graded yet, but what dealer would pass up the multiples on a HG slab even if they had to wait a few weeks?? None!. So when I see a "nice-looking" book in a mylar a ta show, I assume theres a flaw, or its been broken out after a bad grade, or that the dealet (rightfully!) has already concluded that it wont grade out, and wont command the big multiple of a 9.2 - 9.6. So why kid myself that it looks better than it is?? He passes on getting it slabbed..and I pass on buying it.

 

Im not saying that it isnt worth the price its stickered (if priced fairly,) just that I wont fall into the trap of thinking its a nicer book than it is.

[jkrk]

I agree 100%. I'm only referring to the $100/150 VF maybe near mint that really isn't a high enough grade to put any dollars in. Reagrding The $400 plus book, forget it. You are buying a pig in the polk. How many of us are going to outsmart the seller? He clearly isn't giving anything away. If it's not in his interest to have the book graded I wish no part of the book. As I've stated the buyer is taking the risk of buying the raw comic with no real edge. At best he will get what he pays for and often he'll buy the book a grade over the cGC grade. Dealers will explain that they are doing you a favor not having the book graded. "You can't touch the book in plastic". I say, "sell me the CGC'd book and I'll take it out of the holder".

[shadroch]

Allow me to give a diffeent angle on this debate.

I am a small pt dealer who does 4-6 shws a year. Don't spend a fortune buying new inventory so if I sell enuff to pay for my table,make a couple of hundred bucks and maybe use my "Dealer discount" to get a few books I need I consider the show a success.

Lets say I have around 500 real nice HG books that really should be CGC'd. To submit them all would break my budget. Shatter it in reality. How do I choose which books to submit? If I send in 25 books,at a cost of about $1000 dollars, will I be assurred these books will sell next show and I will get a nice return on my investment,or will people now look at my 475 non-CGC'd books and wonder what is wrong with them that I have not CGC'd them.

Have you ever thought about the cost of CGCing an entire inventory? It's very daunting. If you send the books in on the economy plan it will be months before you see them.

What do you sell at the shows that come up while your books are in transit?

I can't speak for others but I am telling you there is no way I am spending 20,000 dollars to CGC books for the chance to do a few shows a year.

[DiceX]

My thinking is...

If they don't get it slabbed, why should they ask the slabbed price for it?

 

I may pay slightly over book price for a very nice copy of a something I want, but I'll never pay a CGC price for any book unless it's in the slab.

 

The risk is too high. The dealer is in a win/win situation.

But, as long as people keep paying the prices, the premium prices on raw (high grade) books will continue to remain high.

 

Tell me this isn't a speculator market.

Sellers are starting to cash in on books without having to send them to CGC.

Who can blam them?

But it will just come back to haunt them in the end.

We don't need a history lesson to see it coming.

[jkrk]

You make some great points that I never considered. I will tell you what I did. I used to do a show or two myself. I had quite a number of books that I decided to liquidate and quickly recognized that I could not sell many at the shows unless I discounted the price rather sharply. I was going to use E-Bay as an outlet but soon realized that half price was all most books would fetch (the buyers questioned whether the books were "E-Bay grading"). It dawned on me that unless I had a top dealer reputation I was not going to receive much more than half the value. I started CGC'ing books to bring the value to a higher level than I could receive raw. I took a ASM book that was worth $150 (put $20 into grading) and would receive $140 for the book (netting me $45 more than selling the book raw).

I am not asking why $20,30,40 50....... books are not graded. There is a bottom line value to having a book graded. I used the money flows of the sales to have additional books graded. My risk was whether my grading was any good or whether there was a restoration. Believe me, if I could sell the raw books to a customer at decent prices I would have no interest to discover how well or poorly I could grade. Money was not a problem if I was profiting from the grading and the sales easily paid for many, many others. That was my experience.

[shadroch]

People seem to forget that the Comic Market thrived for many years before CGc arrived on the scene. Back in the dark ages books still managed to be sold. A nice copy of a book woud sell for X, and a super nice copy would sell for several times X,regardless of the fact that it came in a mylar and not a slab. People used to pride themselves in their ability to grade and if uncertain themselves would ask others for an opinion.Before someone would lay out mega-bucks for a book, they would learn how to look for restoration, or at least learn who was trustworthy and who was a thief. The vast majority of dealers in the 70s and 80s were honest,it wasn't like everyone was out to ripoff the public.Danny Dipz was brought down by dealers who were afraid he would ruin their hobby,not by the unsuspecting people he ripped off.

I am in the minority here but I think if you can't reconize a superior comic when you see it, and need CGC to tell you its a 9.8,then maybe you are in over your head and should go hang in the shallow end for a bit longer.

[DiceX]

People seem to forget that the Comic Market thrived for many years before CGc arrived on the scene. Back in the dark ages books still managed to be sold. A nice copy of a book woud sell for X, and a super nice copy would sell for several times X,regardless of the fact that it came in a mylar and not a slab. People used to pride themselves in their ability to grade and if uncertain themselves would ask others for an opinion.Before someone would lay out mega-bucks for a book, they would learn how to look for restoration, or at least learn who was trustworthy and who was a thief. The vast majority of dealers in the 70s and 80s were honest,it wasn't like everyone was out to ripoff the public.Danny Dipz was brought down by dealers who were afraid he would ruin their hobby,not by the unsuspecting people he ripped off.

I am in the minority here but I think if you can't reconize a superior comic when you see it, and need CGC to tell you its a 9.8,then maybe you are in over your head and should go hang in the shallow end for a bit longer.

 

Perhaps I need to rephrase my post.

*Now* books that are in (in some cases) 8.5+ condition are bringing multiples.

People are paying rediculous prices for comics (even with no scan) online just for the chance to send it off to CGC and flip it when they get it back.

Sellers are marking up books that never should have been marked up.

Bidders and buyers are paying prices for books that should not be paid.

The demand for high grade books is increasing, and *most* sellers are lowering the standard for what they consider high grade in an attempt to prey on the weak minded.

 

Sure, there are some honest dealers. But since eBay came along, everyone can be a dealer.

And I'll lay money on the fact that *most* of these sellers are *not* honest, and can't grade a comic with any sense of skill or honesty.

The same is true for most of the people paying stupid money for these books.

This probably has something to do with the oddball CGC 1.0 - 6.0 grades on random modern books. Books that never should have been submitted.

[shadroch]

DiceX

We are beginning to talk apples and oranges here.I am not talking about buying books on ebay, I am talking about buying books "live".Anyone who buys a Vf book with no scan off of ebay hoping to submit it and get a 8.5 is throwing money down the toilet. There are some great ebay sellers out there and this forum is a great place to get guideance on them, as well as finding out whom to avoid.

 

[DiceX]

DiceX

We are beginning to talk apples and oranges here.I am not talking about buying books on ebay, I am talking about buying books "live".Anyone who buys a Vf book with no scan off of ebay hoping to submit it and get a 8.5 is throwing money down the toilet. There are some great ebay sellers out there and this forum is a great place to get guideance on them, as well as finding out whom to avoid.

 

Agreed.

 

But, what are mine?

Oranges?

[jkrk]

Spoken like a true dealer. "I am telling you the book is a 9.0 and I don't care what CGC says". Is that the attitude? I will explain the trend from my perspective. Everyday some buyer is wising up to the fact that they are buying overgraded raw books and is moving to the CGC material. Yes, its more expensive but I have a confirmed independent grader telling me I am off on my grading and therefore overpaying for the book. I still have to decide whether I like CGC grading before I buy the book but I love independent confirmation. CGC has contributed greatly to the hobby. I was never willing to buy $1000/2000/10000 books before CGC came onstream. Today I have a little more confidence. In todays market I have a better idea what I am buying and receiving the price for what I am selling. I don't have to play in your arena and won't. I suspect buyers are choosing my game whether it pleases you or not.

[shadroch]

Spoken like a true dealer. "I am telling you the book is a 9.0 and I don't care what CGC says". Is that the attitude? I will explain the trend from my perspective. Everyday some buyer is wising up to the fact that they are buying overgraded raw books and is moving to the CGC material. Yes, its more expensive but I have a confirmed independent grader telling me I am off on my grading and therefore overpaying for the book. I still have to decide whether I like CGC grading before I buy the book but I love independent confirmation. CGC has contributed greatly to the hobby. I was never willing to buy $1000/2000/10000 books before CGC came onstream. Today I have a little more confidence. In todays market I have a better idea what I am buying and receiving the price for what I am selling. I don't have to play in your arena and won't. I suspect buyers are choosing my game whether it pleases you or not.

 

You use the word dealer like its a bad word. Without dealers there would be no hobby.

If a dealer tells you a book is 9.0 and you don't think it is-don't buy it. It really is that simple.

Anyone who finds themselves consistantly buying ovegraded books SHOULD start buying CGC books as they evidently have no clue on how to grade themselves.

I also believe CGC has contributed greatly to the market, esp. mail order.

Just out of curiousity which $10,000 books have you been buying now that CGC is onstream. I'd ask about your $1000 dollar books but they are obviously too common to list

. This is not a game for me, its a hobby that provides a nice second income. As I have never made dollar one off you, the fact that I wouldn't make any in the future is far from distressing.

[Zonker]

Shadroch made an interesting point about a dealer arriving at a show with a handful of CGC books and the rest unslabbed-- indeed, the buyers would probably say: what's wrong with the rest of these books? So, if I were a dealer, I'd probably keep a show inventory unslabbed (after all, ya can see the books live, right?), and a second inventory CGC'ed for eBay sales. And of course between shows there would be good reasons for putting some of the unslabbed books up on eBay just to see who bit.

 

Makes sense to me-- it need not be a conspiracy every time a HG unslabbed book shows up (but agree of course about buyer-beware, as always)

[mlovest]

Yes, but you're making the assumption that the dealer has a good grading reputation and buyers will agree with the grade. I doubt there are many on this forum who will agree with most dealers, no offense, regarding a grade. However, they are more likely to accept the CGC impartial assessment of the comic's grade. Therefore, if the dealer says it's an NM 9.4, I think many of us discount the grade, especially if we're buying via eBay or through the mail. The seller will not be able to get the CGCG price less the grading fees because of this disconnect.

 

Make sense?