sfcityduck

On 5/4/2024 at 10:29 AM, adamstrange said:

I wish he would have developed more material in this style as it  would have worked wonderfully for romance, teen, humor, and funny animal genres.

Here's a page of Bailey art from his time on Cracked (late 50s early 60s):

On 5/4/2024 at 10:29 AM, adamstrange said:

I wish he would have developed more material in this style as it  would have worked wonderfully for romance, teen, humor, and funny animal genres.

Didn't he work for Cracked in the 60s?  Don't know what it looked like but you might want to check it out.

On 5/2/2024 at 10:15 PM, Hepcat said:

That would mean that there are likely many more comic collections/hoards in private hands unknown to the broader collecting community. That would be very good news indeed to the present day collector since it's probable that these comics will surface at some point in time.

But!!! Are you sure this wasn't overwhelmingly a west coast phenomenon back then? Where or what were the equivalents of Willits & Brown's Collectors' Bookstore in the major eastern population centers such as New York, Chicago, Boston, Philadelphia, Baltimore, Cleveland, St. Louis, New Orléans and Montréal back in 1964?

I'm sure there are more folks in fandom than just me who were given their father's childhood comic collection. In his case, given he's younger than our own soon to be 90 year old "Marty Mann", so his comics ran from the late 40s to the early-mid 50s.

As for where were the stores? Comic book only stores was just a way for collecting to create identity for itself. But they weren't necessary for kids to collect comics. New comics were on sale pretty much everywhere until the emergence of the direct market. Vintage comics were sold all over the place also. And they had been for many many years. Collectors were seeking out comics almost as soon as they appeared. This is a classified ad from the Hastings Daily Tribune in April 1939:

In the early 1960s, comic collecting was very much originally organized east of the Rockies, as that's where most of the major players in comic fandom were living and publishing fanzines and adzines. There were a lot of East Coast dealers selling by mail. Did they need brick and mortar? Apparently many did without. Longer than the guys in LA. Comic specialty shops apparently got more traction on the West Coast earlier than the East. It apparently didn't hurt east coasters dealing or their collections. By around 1970 or so comic stores really started popping up all over. 

On 4/15/2024 at 7:45 AM, vodou said:

 

Many years ago, at least twenty now, but maybe more like thirty, Roger had discovered a very large stash of illustration art, cover paintings for so-called sleaze digests and paperbacks from the 1950s and 60s. They were all out of the Balcourt Agency; the publishers would contract with Balcourt for art, and Balcourt had a stable of artists they would farm the work out to. The publishers returned the original paintings to Balcourt, but Balcourt didn't return them to the artists. Three to four decades later all these paintings were just stacked in somebody's garage on Long Island. Roger became aware of this situation and moved in to save them from the city dump. At some point he turned this hoard into a very long-running series of weekly eBay auctions, all listed under his kidkameron handle, a handle which I quickly saw was one I needed to watch very closely, the quantity and quality of listings was just that good. Only later when I won a painting did I find out that kidkameron was actually Roger!

 

So was he the guy selling all the Beacon Books cover paintings? I remember those offerings well.

On 5/2/2024 at 9:10 PM, Ricksneatstuff said:

Fascinating history @sfcityduck

Thanks for sharing. 
 

I have picked up most of the Kirkpatrick covers and they are some of my favorite. 
 

I THINK this is my favorite, but so many great ones. 
 

I completely agree. That cover is not just great art, as good as anything of that period, but also emblamatic of everything I think Alice Kirkpatrick was thinking as she drew that cover. Basically: "This beautiful woman does not want to be with that man. She's looking in a different direction entirely. At me (Alice)." 

On 5/2/2024 at 4:58 PM, Robot Man said:

There is a big difference between people “buying and keeping” comics as opposed to people “collecting” and actively seeking out certian books and runs and actually paying well for them.

 

I completely agree. I don't think comic collecting really matured to the point of "paying well for comics" until the 1960s, if you can even call early 1960s prices "paying well."

But, I know from my research into the the Dave Wigransky story that kids were paying over face value for some comics early. The below article about Dave Wigransky's comic collecting in the Washington D.C. Evening Starr of July 19, 1946 reflects that he would "trade valuable items for the first two numbers of the Fawcett publications or the original oversize Master comics magazines he's heard about but never seen." Maybe the most shocking thing about that quote is not that he viewed the first two issues of Fawcett publications as something he'd "trade valuable items for" but that my best guess right now is that he was talking about the Flash and Thrill ashcans that he'd probably learned about from researching in the government archives - researching was something he enjoyed, was good at, and he was doing it to raise money from other comic collectors at the time to fund more acquisitions.

Basil Wolverton's son very kindly provided me with a complete copy of the digital images of the archive of his father's stuff, which includes a lot of fan and business correspondence, for me to sift through for my research. I learned that a few years later, Dave was writing Wolverton that "I have a friend who is an executive at King Features Syndicate, who sent me a Prince Valiant original at Hal Foster's request, as he [Foster] lives in Connecticut and had none available, and later, after the death of Carl Anderson, sent me a Henry original, along with a Krazy Kat, which are valued among collectors at several hundred dollars apiece, impossible to get, and very rare." In that same time period, Wigransky was running ads in pulps seeking comics from a single title - Fantastic Comics. And was running ads all over the nation seeking original art and comics from 1938 to 1942 - which Wigransky called the "Golden Age" of comics in other correspondence with Wolverton. 

This kind of stuff paints a whole different world than most of us think comic collecting was like before the 1960s.

One thing I think we all forget is that the comic pros back in those days liked their fans. They were, in fact, introducing their fans to each other. We've heard those stories about EC and DC creators like Gardner Fox and others. Well, it is obvious to me that Basil Wolverton did it too. Basil got regular correspondence from fans other than Wigransky, although it is obvious he took Wigransky more seriously than other fans and filed his correspondence in his business files not his fan letter files. One of those other fans was Ron Graham, who wrote Wolverton in 1948 trying to buy comics off of him and asking for his editor's address so he could try to buy back issues off of him too.  

Who is Ron Graham? He's one of those founders of modern comic fandom. He had a pretty remarkable letter in Alter Ego in 1961 (starts at bottom of first page below). In it, he talks about how Wolverton got him started collecting original art in 1948 and that by 1953 he had 150 pieces of OA and 5,000 comics. He said he gave the comics to Ted White in 1953 when Ron entered the Army because he knew Ted would take care of them and keep them intact! How'd Ron (of Indiana) know Ted of (Falls Church, VA)? Through SF fanzines for which Ted became an active contributor in 1951. Just like Lupof and Don & Maggie Thompson hooking up as comic collectors through the SF fan scene later. To me, that's comic collecting and that's a network of comic collectors. These were the guys who became the supposed founders of modern comic collecting in the early 1960s - but they were doing it before then.

Ron Graham shared with the budding comic collecting community of 1961 a lot of key information about comic history and their creators. Including some information that shocked Richard Kyle who was writing the first serious article on comic history for Xero's All in Color for a Dime series. Stuff like the history of the birth of superheroes, the sequence of character appearances, the DC lawsuit against Fox/Wonderman and Fawcett etc. So Richard Kyle called up Graham and asked him "where'd you learn all that?" Graham referred Kyle to that kid who was charging 5 cents a question to research comic history back in 1945 - Dave Wigransky. Obviously Graham got introduced to Wigransky, and Wolverton knew them both back in the late 1940s, so its seems Wolverton was probably the guy who introduced two of his fans. Just like Schwartz introduced Roy Thomas to Jerry Bails in the 1960s, and other pros did for fans earlier. And Wigransky told Kyle what he wanted to know about the history and more which Kyle then incorporated into his article in Xero. So the guys active in the 1940s became the foundation for the info being published in the fanzines of the 1960s. 

Comic collecting did not begin in late 1950s or early 1960s. It was a thing really early on. Pretty amazing when you think about it.

But just as important, maybe more so, is that what collecting is today is due to the huge boost that came with the guys of the 1960s organizing comic collecting into something much more serious than it was before. And those guys in SoCal were a huge part of that in the early 1960s. Its a fascinating history with a lot of credit to go around.

On 5/2/2024 at 5:19 PM, Robot Man said:

 

The way Richard tells the story is that he was never a part of the store, having decided to head off to college.

This is an article Richard sent me that he wrote, it's in full on page 2 of the thread.

On 4/27/2024 at 6:37 PM, SOTIcollector said:

Interesting.  Thanks for sharing.  It looks like they went to my site (lostsoti.org), took my list of SOTI books, and added their own photos.  If you compare the two, you'll see that I used the correct cover photos at my site.  The Comic Book Invest site has incorrect photos for Ideal #3 and Wild Boy #10.

They did take your photo from the LOC under the flourescent lights of the Nightingale, because that sickly green is not color accurate to the book (your fix that). Not SOTIcollectors copy. Instead, the worst of the three known copies in private hand:

On 5/2/2024 at 8:36 AM, Hepcat said:

So was Richard Olson one of those few collectors who started buying comics circa 1950, kept them all and then when older began to hunt down issues he'd missed as a kid?

 

I think there were more collectors buying and keeping comics in the 1950s then folks realize. More folks buying and keeping comics starting in the 1940s than people realize. A lot of the founders of modern comic fandom in the early 1960s fell into those categories. And stores were actively buying and selling back issue comics much earlier than people realize. Willits & Brown were on the cutting edge of modern fandom when they opened Collectors Showcase in 1964. And it became a top store as multiple guys here have attested. Richard once posted on this site about seeing 12 copies of Batman 1 for sale at one time at that store in the mid-60s. But, I've seen ads for stores buying and selling used comics that date back to the 1940s. Comic and original art collecting was a thing well before it got truly organized in the early 1960s. And by the late 50s, Willits and Olson were hunting down comics and selling them through the mail.

I sold Richard this comic.

It was apparently amongst his very favorites because he "made me an offer I couldn't refuse" when he learned of it, offered to fly me and my wife to New Orleans and put us up in a hotel so I could deliver it and visit him in person (which offer to my everlasting sadness I could not accept due to press of cases), and struck up a correspondence with me that I truly appreciate.

As I just asked over on the Ducks thread, anyone know what's happening with his collection? I wouldn't mind trying to buy this one back.

Back to duck. I was surprised to see this pop up on eBay for less than I sold it on Heritage. It is, to my knowledge tied with one of its brothers for the highest grade given to a subscription variant.

Here is the brother:

This run’s OO was in Oregon. But his books were dispersed by a dealer. You see them around. The WDC&S all have the OO name and address. There were also incredible Duck Four Colors - census topping. 

 

I sold an incredible US 2 to Richard Olson b/c he told me it was his favorite book.  Anyone know what is happening to his collection?

On 5/1/2024 at 9:39 PM, tth2 said:

It's only propaganda if you're on the losing side.  As the saying goes, history is written by the victors.

History IS written by the victors but our history was pretty frank about recognizing propaganda. Bill Mauldin won a Pulitzer for this cartoon in Stars and Stripes calling out US home front propaganda:

That a soldier-journalist could not only draw that for an Army newspaper during wartime but get his country”s highest journalistic honor is why America was and is a great country. That is the difference between the US and fascist countries that value the “dear leader” or “strongman” mentality. Because our history includes not just propaganda but efforts like GI Roundtable Education Manual 2 which was intended to ensure that US soldiers returning to civilian life knew how to recognize fascist propaganda and to reject authoritarianism. Great stuff. Other EM’s included these:

Back then people understood the value of a democratic government and how America could use the government to pull people up through educational efforts like these.

So there is something interesting I forgot to mention about this thing:

When Heritage sold the only copy they have had pass through their doors, their listing stated:

Offered here is a unique Walt Disney produced G. I. guidebook expounding on the evils of propaganda. Donald Duck appears on the cover ... and Tojo, Mussolini, and Hitler make appearances. The book measures 5" x 7.5". A scarce Disney book from the World War II era. We're betting that you wont find many books with both Donald and Hitler together! Not listed in Overstreet. From the John McLaughlin Collection.

Thing is, Heritage betted wrong! To go with the above, I just picked this up off of eBay as well (nicest I've seen - hence my desire to get the set):

I think they'll make a nice and ironic set on the wall of my office.

The irony of "What is Propaganda?" booklet is that Disney was doing more propaganda during WWII than just about anyone else, including Donald Duck cartoons of which this sheet music is from, and the booklet itself had healthy doses of anti-Fascist Germany propaganda (which I am personally very ok with).

On 5/1/2024 at 6:51 AM, Marty Mann said:

90 in September!

On 4/23/2024 at 7:32 PM, Bigphatpaulie said:

I have a question.  Four Color #16 is considered the "First Mickey Mouse in Comics"

What about Donald Duck?  I never found a definitive answer:

 

The first animated cartoon appearance of Donald Duck, the character we all know and love, was in "The Wise Little Hen," a Silly Symphony, which supposedly debuted on June 9, 1934 (a date that Disney uses as Donald's Birthday) but really opened on June 7, 1934 with a benefit preview occurring on May 3, 1934. 

While there was a the 1931 book with a character called Donald Duck, that wasn't THE Donald Duck. Instead, the first appearance of Donald Duck, the character we love, in print was in the Good Housekeeping magazine Silly Symphonies cartoon page for "The Wise Little Hen" in the June 1934 issue which hit the stands even before the appearance of the cartoon.

Here's another:

On 4/30/2024 at 8:04 AM, Thomask. said:

Hi everyone

I got (and just received) the Supergear, the Bradman and the 2 Silly Putty Man from this auction, so I'm quite happy. That pretty much concludes my Gold, Silver and Bronze DC Promos with Superhero appearances.

Does anyone of you knowledgable people know why Silly Putty is considered a DC comic? There's absolutely no reference to DC (or National) in the comics themselves.

Cheers, Thomas

I'd love to see a list! Are you doing just comics in the OPG or everything anyone's ever heard of. That's got to be a frustrating quest. It took me a few years to find just the Aquateers Meet the Super Friends.

As for Silly Putty, I would not expect a reference to DC unless it had a DC character or copyright. If DC was just doing work for hire for some company, then they probably didn't own the copyright.

Supergear, as I'm sure you know, was unauthorized. So I guess technically you didn't need it for a DC collection. But a super cool comic to own. I failed to hit the BIN on that one when I saw it pop up eBay long ago. Another Boardie bought it and, I believe, sold it (or his undercopy) to Ian. Congrats!

Here's a pic of Ian and one of your books (upper left).

I'm not a dealer. So comics are not my life or livelihood. For me comics are a form of entertainment. And buying and selling comics is a game.

I usually buy what I like or what interests me. But sometimes I seek something out just to see if I can find it. An example: I've spent a few years trying to find a copy of the Aquateers Meet the Super Friends (1979) giveaway comic that was sold with a pair of swim goggle. I don't collect Super Friends. I'm not trying to own the rarest Bronze Age comics. But I do enjoy a nice hunt. So when I finally found a copy, I turned around and sold it here on the boards. The fun was finally finding one. The payoff, and it is in no way an "investment" was getting someone to buy it off of me who really wanted it. I get the satisfaction of money and making someone happy. Sure I made a 40x return.  But finding a good home for a rare item is probably more satisfying. 

I'd hate to have the stress of caring how much I make selling comics that i'd have if I were a dealer (but I'd probably have a much better collection). Even when I'm selling to fund an anticipated acquisition, I enjoy listing the items and seeing if anyone appreciates them as much or more than I do collecting the cash.

On 4/30/2024 at 2:28 PM, Hepcat said:

Yes, that's a large part of it. And I agree that DC shot the canon for Superman, Batman and their other heroes decades ago.

Yeah, yeah, I know. I'm an old curmudgeon, i.e. Silver Age DC fan.

 

Which means you came on board after DC shredded the canon and left it on floor with the reboots of the 1950s and 1960s, and loved it.

On 4/30/2024 at 7:28 AM, Badger said:

Is it text or art inside? Looks pretty cool!

It's illustrated text. Some Duck illustrations but other which are not. A couple grabs from a copy on eBay:

There were multiple WWII editions - 2 by the War Department, 3 by the American Historical Association, 1 by the Armed Forces Institute - and I have no idea what they all look like or which came when. Here's some examples of differences, but don't know what is what:

This one's brand new to my collection. Dates to 1944. It is the GI Roundtable Education Manual 2:

Back cover:

Anyone have one?  Been looking for a nice copy and snagged this off of eBay. There's a more expensive one in worse shape on eBay if anyone wants this esoteric but cool bit of Disney WWII work.

On 4/28/2024 at 12:40 PM, Yorick said:

I'm a fan of Kurtzman/ Wood's Superduperman.  Was that printed in MAD?*

*looks it up and in two seconds sees it was Mad #4, ah the beauty of the internet

Yeah, but that's parody - a fair use. The only unauthorized straight up use of Superman that I'm aware of is Supergear. I'm sure that there might have been a Tijuana Bible or Underground porn type use, but I don't think that's what we're talking about here.

On 4/27/2024 at 8:31 PM, catman76 said:

 

also hepcats arguements make no sense. do you know how many batman and superman bootleg comics and things there are? tons. some of the best batman and superman comics I ever have read are bootlegs. 

Now you have me curious - examples I should check out? I can only think of one Superman bootleg.

On 4/26/2024 at 7:37 PM, Hepcat said:

I don't believe any of those are still in regular publication. Therefore they'd fit my definition of "abandoned properties".

Phantom, Duck Tracy and Prince Valiant are in constant reprints with PV on-going also.