500Club

3 hours ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

That’s not driving the value of IH 181 now, though. The “reading” component of the hobby, such as it was, is baked into modern values. It’s valuable, because it’s been valuable. Nobody needs to buy the book to read it anymore, and everything gets slabbed. 

There’s no real objective reason why 181 should be so much more valuable than 180 (“story” isn’t a sufficient explanation in this case. This isn’t the Death of Jean Gray, etc) other than it’s been that way historically and a lot of people in the hobby have a vested interest in that continuing. 

It's interesting, the debate about 'why this book and not that book?', especially with muddy introductions like Kamala Khan.   I think you're right, in that there's definitely a tendency that once the train has left the station, as far as anointing the key book, that's it.   As far as a current objective reason why 181 is worth so much more currently, @valiantman put it best:  he's on the cover.  That's a huge driver in this age of slab and cover collecting.

There's a lot of teeth gnashing in this thread about one book being recognized over another, and the market isn't exactly consistent, either.  I suspect in some cases, especially with new characters, that people may be 'talking their book'.  The question I have is, why the incessant debate?  You're the latest in a long list to challenge the 180/181 hierarchy.  Why? 

In golf, there's an expression: 'play it where it lies'.  At this point people should probably just accept the dictates of the market, or, if you really think the market has it wrong and will change, then, for God's sake, don't shout it to the high heavens, just keep quiet and load up on the book you feel is overlooked.

4 hours ago, Nico Esq said:

 I was surprised that the White Knight comic was on people’s walls and selling.  I was fearful that I was the only person who loved this series.  That being said, I saw no slabbed copies and don’t see that book moving well on ebay.  I can’t tell if dealers are over invested, hope that others love the book as much as they do or what exactly was the impetus for displaying these books so prominently.

BWK has been grassroots popular since its release.  I bought a couple extra copies of number 1, and they sold quickly over the summer.

4 hours ago, Les Tunes said:

7 hours ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

The values of the books was in flux in the late 70’s to early 80’s. And 181 is coasting on momentum now. No objective reason it should be more valuable than 180 based upon the normal canons of the hobby. 

When I see someone who can't figure out the difference between the two I assume they're not much of a reader, and therefore cannot fathom a reader's mentality.  #181 Is worth more because it is a better read than #180. Imagine me as a 10 year old back in the day with $1.50 in my pocket, and I have to choose between a 180 for $1 or a 181 for $1.50. As a huge Wolverine fan, which would I choose? The book he appears in one small panel at the very end or a whole book (with cover) of Wolverine fighting The Hulk and Wendigo. Pretty easy to see why 181 wins.

This.

The hobby arose on the back of reading.  Kids wanted to read issues they missed, and wanted to read issues about characters they liked.  That's what drove desirability, and thus value.

9 hours ago, Juno Beach said:

10 hours ago, 500Club said:

I think they unilaterally decided to establish prices based on feedback about the appearance in 180, and subsequently got further feedback from market advisors that 181 was the book being more sought after.  The fact they list 181 there as a cameo speaks to a pretty poor effort at actually looking at the books. 

In fact, they did it again just recently with Batman 655 and 656.  Two years ago they listed 656 at a higher price, and last year corrected that, almost certainly based on market feedback.

I think that they are noting that 182 has a Wolverine cameo? It's not really clear. 

Yeah, possible...    Like you say, it's an ambiguous listing.

Are there any long term dealers here who want to chime in on what they actually saw circa 1979-1982 in terms of prices being paid?  WAs there a brief period 180 commanded higher prices?  Did 182 ever fetch similar prices to 181?  I started collecting in 1980, and to my recollection, 180 and 182 were always secondary books to 181.

1 hour ago, divad said:

2 hours ago, mr_highgrade said:

Here's the 11th Edition from 1981-1982

 

    

HG - What do you make of this considering the 10th and 12th editions?

I think they unilaterally decided to establish prices based on feedback about the appearance in 180, and subsequently got further feedback from market advisors that 181 was the book being more sought after.  The fact they list 181 there as a cameo speaks to a pretty poor effort at actually looking at the books. 

In fact, they did it again just recently with Batman 655 and 656.  Two years ago they listed 656 at a higher price, and last year corrected that, almost certainly based on market feedback.

2 hours ago, Michael Browning said:

Take this to another thread. This is the MODERNS THAT ARE HEATING UP thread.

Sheldon Cooper?  Is that you?

4 minutes ago, Jaydee said:

 Is this Over now that we can Bring up the Latest Craziness in the Modern world.  IE What if #105 and Marvel Team up #67

Wrong forum.   MTU 67 is bronze.   

12 hours ago, Nico Esq said:

It’s a shame how the boards have deteriorated in the last 5 years.  It’s painful to read the constant bickering about “the first true appearance of Wolverine” in “Moderns that are heating up on Ebay.”  ?‍♂️

Yeah, that's because we haven't had your drama to distract us...

8 hours ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

On 9/14/2018 at 2:43 PM, 500Club said:

The market hasn't decided IH 180 isn't Wolverine's first appearance.   It has decided the most important and collectible issue of Wolverine's introduction is 181.

 Yes. Because it was falsely labelled as his 1st appearance for years, became a classic Key, and now everyone is retroactively rationalizing why. Your explanation is one of several. It used to be “first Full vs First cameo” etc. Rules that were literally invented to explain the 180 vs 181 discrepancy.

Anyone who had collected for more than five minutes in the late seventies onward knew the structure of Wolverine’s introduction.  It isn’t some 21st century discovery that Wolverine shows up at the end of IH 180.  The market has had forever and a day to change its focus to 180, if it so chose.

11 minutes ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

13 minutes ago, 500Club said:

The market hasn't decided IH 180 isn't Wolverine's first appearance.   It has decided the most important and collectible issue of Wolverine's introduction is 181.

Which is based entirely on the historical nonsense that it was his first overall appearance, and kept that value up due to momentum, mostly. It's an historical anomaly. 

No, it's not.  This hobby arose on the back of interest in reading about these characters, so it's no surprise, that, pre internet and tpb, collectors chose to buy a full issue of Wolverine being introduced, rather than a single panel end of issue appearance.  The anomalies are the occasional brief appearances that have been anointed 'most important and collectible' for that character.

There's never been any illusion that Wolverine didn't appear in 180, or hobby ignorance of the fact.

10 minutes ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

I'm not arguing with you. I agree that Hulk #180 is Wolvy's FIRST Appearance, not #181. I had a big argument on these boards a couple years ago about it. But, the Market has decided it's not. Just like the market decided that fantastic Four #48 was the first appearance of Galactus.

The market hasn't decided IH 180 isn't Wolverine's first appearance.   It has decided the most important and collectible issue of Wolverine's introduction is 181.

2 hours ago, Mr.Mcknowitall said:

2 hours ago, ChunkyLover53 said:

Buzz???

Chunky stew 

5 hours ago, kimik said:

At the Red & White show last weekend there were a number of comic/toys/memorabilia vendors that I talked to who are not doing the Edmonton Expo this year due to the way they were handled at the Calgary Expo, and most will not be at the Calgary Expo again. That is not a good sign. Informa needs to up its game on the vendor relationship management side big time. The finance department has been the only one who has returned my e-mails re: when we would find out about booth space, and that was to tell me that someone would be contacting us after the Toronto FanExpo. 

Elon Musk has done a more elegant job running Tesla over the past three months than FanExpo has done running the Calgary and Edmonton Expos.

21 hours ago, AnkurJ said:

Rogers SS was a collector who set up with amazing stuff. It was $25k.

Here are some random pics. Was great meeting fellow boardies and collectors. Some interesting conversations about the market overall.

 

Who had the ASM 208 cover?  What was the ask?

15 hours ago, musicmeta said:

Now, the market dictated that Hulk 181 is more desirable and more valuable.  Fine..But the VERY FIRST TIME YOU SAW THE WOLVERINE was Hulk 180...Case closed to me.

It's because, as a hobby, we bastardized the term 'first appearance' to mean 'most significant and collected introductory issue' of a character.  But, yeah, literally, there's no debating Hulk 180.

1 hour ago, valiantman said:

I feel like there's an opportunity for this hobby to correct some "information problems" like this online, similar to how it's now possible to correct some "information problems" in other aspects of life using Snopes.com.  What was believed for decades doesn't have to be "fact" when the facts can be spelled out (and shown) like your examples.  Perhaps the year 2020 will be when this hobby realizes that hindsight is 20/20. 

The market has been pretty deaf to any attempts to impose some sort of order.  X-Men 266/Annual 14 is a situation that has been known and understood for years, and there has been zero shift in sentiment.   We are, as a group, pretty resistant to change.

18 minutes ago, valiantman said:

20 minutes ago, 500Club said:

The market had plenty of opportunity to do that three years ago, when this argument was all the rage.   What happened?  That revisionist line of thinking was rejected, and it was 181 that exploded in value.   Seems in this hobby that is based on collecting a literary medium, we value a full story introduction over a single panel, for the most part.

On the flip side, it's probably a good time to buy 180, as it should draft along in value.

Unfortunately, no.  This hobby is based on cover art.  That's why Hulk #181 wins. 

Cover focused collecting has certainly come into vogue the last ten years or so.  It certainly wasn't what established 181 as the key book for the first 30 years, though.  How much of a factor was it in the rejection of the '180 first' movement?  I'm not sure.

The other idea I've seen put forward that has merit is 'whatever book leaves the spec station first is the winner'.

6 hours ago, Beige said:

Kav is right.

Eventually #180 will be recognised for what it is - 1st Wolvie.  

I don't have either for exactly that reason.

The market had plenty of opportunity to do that three years ago, when this argument was all the rage.   What happened?  That revisionist line of thinking was rejected, and it was 181 that exploded in value.   Seems in this hobby that is based on collecting a literary medium, we value a full story introduction over a single panel, for the most part.

On the flip side, it's probably a good time to buy 180, as it should draft along in value.

2 minutes ago, ComicConnoisseur said:

2 hours ago, Darkowl said:

It's unreal how this book keeps climbing. 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Incredible-Hulk-181-CGC-9-0-Marvel-1974-1st-Full-Wolverine-99-No-Reserve-/192636032208?nordt=true&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.m43663.l44720

I remember when a 9.0 would only cost a grand a few years ago.

Yep Hulk #181 is following the same path as AF#15

The amazing part is when you consider the supply side of the equation.  It almost makes you wonder if you can ever argue ‘but there’s x number of copies out there!, aside from Lee X-Men 1, X-Force 1, and McSpidey 1.

6 hours ago, namisgr said:

I thought this thread was about Ditko's estate, not his legacy.

Yeah, but as with many threads, it’s organically evolved in a couple of different directions.

6 hours ago, Chuck Gower said:

My opinion, and I'll state it again, is that Stan was an essential part of it, maybe THE most essential part of it's success. Jack had been successful - both Captain America and the first Romance Comics sold over a million copies - something Stan never came close to doing - but what they achieved together at Marvel would turn into something unprecedented.

 I just think Stan gets FAR too much credit for the 'story writing' and the 'creative process' and Jack not enough.

This is a middle I’ll gladly meet you at, Chuck.  The ‘Marvel style’ was essentially Stan working out bare bones plot framework (or less), letting the artists have at the story, and then polishing it off with -script.  You won’t catch me shorting Jack and Steve (and others) credit due.

34 minutes ago, Buzzetta said:

There is only one man that truly was the straw that stirs the drink. 

Has he been charged yet for trying to shoot the Queen?

1 hour ago, Chuck Gower said:

I’ve said endlessly, my position is this: Without Stan Lee the Marvel Universe would never have come close to being noticed or acheiving the level of success it did. But without Kirby, it wouldn't have existed at all. I have no problem giving Lee his due, he was amazing at what he did.

I’d be more inclined to say both men were essential to what Marvel became.  I think if either one were subtracted from the equation, you wouldn’t have Marvel.  Ditko less so, but all three were giants in the genesis of Marvel.

2 hours ago, Logan510 said:

If you want to get technical, there wouldn't be a Marvel Universe if Martin Goodman hadn't instructed Stan Lee to come up with something like the Justice League. The original plot to FF #1 written by Lee was discovered by a Marvel staffer who inherited Stan Lee's old desk, unless you'd like to call Roger Stern a liar as well?

And then, when Goodman said no to Spider-Man because no one likes spiders, but Stan snuck the origin story into a title slated for cancellation.