500Club

10 minutes ago, ygogolak said:

Now you're confusing "value" and "first appearance".

He’s using value as a yardstick of importance.  Don’t you agree it’s fair to say that if the market thought those promo WD pages were more important, or were seen by the market as true first appearances, prices would reflect that?

7 minutes ago, ygogolak said:

Hmm, na. The market is different now than it was 10 years ago and every year before that. I'm not sure why some people try to hold onto the past as the almighty authority and not look to the future.

Check out the CGC label and sales of Ms. Marvel #17 2nd print and All-New Marvel Now Point One and get back to me. Or, since we are holding onto the past. Lets check old Hulk #180 labels vs. new ones.

No using CGC labels as any sort of authoritative source.  They tend to label using the ‘squeaky wheel’ effect, are opinion driven like us, and are inconsistent.

And, yes, the market changes, is different now than ten years ago, and there’s no point holding on to the past.   But things haven’t changed as much as this echo chamber would lead you to believe.   I’d look at this issue like a political party that had three percent of the vote ten years ago, and now has five percent.

9 minutes ago, ygogolak said:

  Says whom? You are not the authority on this subject and nobody else on here is either.

Is it the first time a character appears in a comic story? YES

If you want to make claims about books like FOOM (another one I forgot to mention earlier), than fine. But even 500Club agrees there is a market for things like that and people who believe that.

 

Also, where has Mr. Ween been?

Oh, yeah, make no bones about it, there’s a market for these things.  I actually think they’re quite cool.   I just tend to bristle when their importance is overstated.

As for the first time the character appears in a story?  Well, yeah, sorta...   But it’s a piece of a story, and it’s a piece from an actual, in continuity book.  You see similar in Previews and Image+.  Collectors in general still make the distinction, and still want the actual publication.

2 hours ago, fastballspecial said:

You are correct on this, but again that was several years ago. The market has changed overall. I don't agree with it, but I am not going to pass a chance up on a book like this cheap. I will still be finding them for next to nothing for at least the next 6 months I would bet. 

We are arrogant here sometimes thinking we are the market when in fact we are just small growing portion. Its the mentality change that's causing the problem. This new collector base believes Hulk 180 is more valuable then Hulk 181 and so on. I have had to finally just embrace the view point as a seller and move on whether I agree with it or not.

 

Hey!  That’s MY point. 

We aren’t the market.  We’re not even close.  We, including this board, other boards, and spec sites, are an echo chamber that magnifies the views of a small segment of the market.  In this case, we’ve magnified the perceived importance of promo items.  On ‘main street’ this line of thinking doesn’t hold sway.

In fact, because of this state of affairs, you’ll be able to find SoSM for next to nothing, as you say.  And, as for IH 180 vs 181, take a look at GPA data.  IH 181 has exploded.  IH 180 remains a secondary consideration.  As IH 181 in CGC 9.4 approaches 8K, I’m sure IH 180 will see some spillover buying, but IH 181 is still driving the bus.

2 hours ago, darkstar said:

9 hours ago, 500Club said:

As I told ygogolak, the value argument isn’t an argument.  There is value there.  Happy to wave the red cape and step aside on that one.

It’s still a niche market, though.  You may not be aware of this, but there’s a much larger market outside of our insular chat board, and it dwarfs even the totality of the web and spec site denizens.  Those people, who shop at LCSs and shows, don’t really care much about items like these as collectibles.  They don’t ask for them and they rarely have them on want lists.  They will perk up if they have them and there’s money to be made, but thats about it.  I had a nice copy of Agents 6, with the 5 page WD preview in the back.  Took me 4 years to sell it at shows, and that was into the ultra-hot WD market circa seasons 1-4.  That’s a reflection of the lack of interest from the non chat board, spec site frequenting collectors.

Collectibles exist because of niche markets. 

 Your story is anecdotal and means nothing. 

Your first comment is just an obfuscating generalization, apropos of nothing.  It’s the debate equivalent of chaff.  In this case, we are looking at a niche market within a type of collectible.  The point that follows from that is that, while there is some value to these items, it’s a very small segment of the comic collecting population that values them, and that segment is fuelled by the tubthumping of spec sites.  On ‘main street’ these views haven’t really made inroads.

My story is anecdotal.  It doesn’t mean ‘nothing’.  It’s the strongest example I have of many similar.  In years of show dealing, I can count on one hand the requests I’ve had for Marvel Age, Previews, DC Who’s Who, assorted Image five page back of book previews, Marvel Now Point 1, etc, etc...    When Preacher got scorching hot two years ago, did our buyers want Preacher Preview?  Nope.  10:1 they wanted Preacher 1.  

I had a debate with MrMcKnowitall in the Water Cooler a couple of years ago - I’d dismissed something as anecdotal, and, he countered with the philosophical question  ‘how many anecdotes before you have evidence?’.

2 hours ago, darkstar said:

Instead of being pedantic you could recognize the point being made there is that the sampler fits perfectly within a comic book collectors collection which is important because there has been a hesitation on the part of collectors to collect first appearances that occur in formats outside of their regular sized comics. The sampler is not a treasury or a coloring book or a tpb or magazine or comic shop news or comics journal or an ashcan or a convention program or a novel or any of those other formats with varying dimensions and sizes that comic collectors shy away from because they don't fit with the rest of their collection. And yes it is a comic book with a UPC and everything.

 

I will recognize the point made about the format being comic book sized.  

But, no , it isn’t ‘a comic book’.   It’s, as advertised, a ‘sampler’.  You get the theatre, the popcorn, the seats and everything with the movie trailer, but it’s not a movie.

5 hours ago, darkstar said:

And reality is that Carol Danvers first appears as Captain Marvel in the Summer of Spider-Man Sampler - an actual comic book This is no single interior image within the pages of a non-comic book, nor is it only a cover depiction on some preview mag. It is an actual comic with the character depicted on the cover accompanied by a text proclamation indicating her introduction combined with several pages of sequential art on the interior pages where she is shown in multiple panels across several pages in costume, with dialogue, and being addressed by name. It is a more substantial first appearance than countless other character we've seen throughout the history of comics where they've been introduced in a last panel teaser for the next issue. You want to take issue with a single visual depiction of a character being shown in a preview or advertisement as a first appearance ok, but this isn't that, so stop equating the two. 

SoSM isn’t an ‘actual comic book’.  It’s a promotional pamphlet in comic book shape.  Calling it an actual comic book is like calling a movie trailer ‘an actual movie’.

9 hours ago, darkstar said:

10 hours ago, 500Club said:

 

Read it again.  I`m fine with it as a niche market.  I have contempt for the trend that suggests these things should be more.  As a self proclaimed `reader of comics`, you can probably understand my desire to lean toward substance.

145 slabbed copies of the Preacher Preview 

194 slabbed copies of Malibu Sun

168 slabbed copies of Dime Press 4

That is quite the niche market. Not all promo items are the same nor are they treated as such by the market. Most of these promo items that get touted don't have all the things going for them that I listed above regarding the Spider-Man sampler. Those things matter. A lot.

A year from now we can compare the value generated between 400 dollars worth of Avenging Spider-Man 9 purchased today (the slab the OP mentioned) and 400 dollars worth of Summer of Spider-Man Sampler, which is currently roughly around 20 dollars a copy. 

As I told ygogolak, the value argument isn’t an argument.  There is value there.  Happy to wave the red cape and step aside on that one.

It’s still a niche market, though.  You may not be aware of this, but there’s a much larger market outside of our insular chat board, and it dwarfs even the totality of the web and spec site denizens.  Those people, who shop at LCSs and shows, don’t really care much about items like these as collectibles.  They don’t ask for them and they rarely have them on want lists.  They will perk up if they have them and there’s money to be made, but thats about it.  I had a nice copy of Agents 6, with the 5 page WD preview in the back.  Took me 4 years to sell it at shows, and that was into the ultra-hot WD market circa seasons 1-4.  That’s a reflection of the lack of interest from the non chat board, spec site frequenting collectors.

41 minutes ago, ygogolak said:

51 minutes ago, 500Club said:

The profit aspect is undeniable.

My argument is confined to railing against the tide of thinking that these items are cardinal collectibles rather than niche, ancilliary items.  It seems like there`s more and more spec sites and so called collectors foisting these off as `the key item` rather than the comic itself that is a character`s first appearance.

And, yeah, I did compare SoSM to Comic Shop News, as allusion to a trend.  If 3-5 page snippets of story in a preview pamphlet is treated as key, it`s a short trip to a CSN with a picture of a panel with the character predating the comic book appearance.

Diamond Previews are already treated as much. A cover image is all you get. Yes, it may be a niche market. But that is also the way run collectors are going. So, do you want to change or just be mad about it? 

Read it again.  I`m fine with it as a niche market.  I have contempt for the trend that suggests these things should be more.  As a self proclaimed `reader of comics`, you can probably understand my desire to lean toward substance.

2 hours ago, ygogolak said:

2 hours ago, 500Club said:

Listen, goulash, you`re the spec site denizen and hot trend bandwagon rider.   You must love `reading` three to five page pieces of story.

These items sell, but to a small corner of the CBSI following, sports card mentality section of the hobby.  I don`t get asked for them at any of the shows we set up at.

You related the Spider-Man to Comic Shop News. You obviously didn't open the comic. I'm the one of the two of us that did.

I assume it's very easy to track the type of stuff you are selling. Thing is, I can pluck these type of books for $1 and make a large profit because I follow the hobby.

The profit aspect is undeniable.

My argument is confined to railing against the tide of thinking that these items are cardinal collectibles rather than niche, ancilliary items.  It seems like there`s more and more spec sites and so called collectors foisting these off as `the key item` rather than the comic itself that is a character`s first appearance.

And, yeah, I did compare SoSM to Comic Shop News, as allusion to a trend.  If 3-5 page snippets of story in a preview pamphlet is treated as key, it`s a short trip to a CSN with a picture of a panel with the character predating the comic book appearance.

3 hours ago, Broke as a Joke said:

5 hours ago, ygogolak said:

Yes, he did NYX. Dell 'Otto, Hughes, Campbell, Mattina, even Skottie Young have done interiors in their past. Becoming almost strictly a cover artist means you have been recognized as bringing unique talent to comics. With that, I'm sure their prices increase. Although, I guess they could keep drawing interiors for a fraction of the price. That makes sense, right?

Actually he only did the first 4 issues of NYX, he couldn't even finish the whole 6 issues.  Hughes and Campbell have at least held it down on a monthly title before for more than 4 issues.  Of course you can talk about money but when these talented guys don't give us any creativity or storytelling in a medium that is currently dying for that very thing, it is disheartening.   

It is disheartening as a fan, but, putting myself in the artists`shoes, I`d happily do covers exclusively for the kind of money JSC and others are getting.

Truthfully, this is a monster of our (collectors as a whole) own creation.

5 hours ago, ygogolak said:

13 hours ago, 500Club said:

It’s an ancillary item at best.  I’m sure, for the new age, spec over substance guys like you, that’s a big deal, but for the core of the collecting community these are secondary items.  

My apologies for not disguising my contempt better. 

"Guys like me", you mean the ones that still open and read comics? Yes my friend, a dying breed. 

Its not my fault that you don't have knowledge of what sells today.

Listen, goulash, you`re the spec site denizen and hot trend bandwagon rider.   You must love `reading` three to five page pieces of story.

These items sell, but to a small corner of the CBSI following, sports card mentality section of the hobby.  I don`t get asked for them at any of the shows we set up at.

21 minutes ago, darkstar said:

1 hour ago, 500Club said:

If promo items catch on, we might as well look at Previews and Comic Shop News. 

Except the Summer of Spider-Man Sampler is comic book sized. And comic book length. And has the character appearing in costume and talking in sequential art. And she is named. And she appears in costume on the cover. And the cover even calls it the introduction of the character. And the sampler has 9 slabbed copies compared to 687 for Avenging 9. When you consider all this, combined with the market depth of the character (hint: look at the total number of books she moves daily and not just her first appearance issues), and it is only a matter of time before the Eye of Sauron turns toward this book and it is three figures raw. This is the easiest buy and hold in modern comics. You should only be selling this book right now if you are zeroing out the costs of your initial investment in it.   

I guess I can’t fault the logic of taking advantage of a sellable asset.

54 minutes ago, ygogolak said:

1 hour ago, 500Club said:

If promo items catch on, we might as well look at Previews and Comic Shop News. 

where have you been?

Comic Shop News only has comic strips in it. This is a 5 page preview and it has the cover to Avenging #9 on the cover.

In 2016 Preacher Preview 9.8 hit its high of $1,150.

 Also, you might want to check what Diamond Previews Jan. 2012 (Saga), Malibu Sun #13 (Spawn) and Diamond Previews March 1992 (Spawn) sell for.

It’s an ancillary item at best.  I’m sure, for the new age, spec over substance guys like you, that’s a big deal, but for the core of the collecting community these are secondary items.  

My apologies for not disguising my contempt better. 

1 hour ago, darkstar said:

Nah you should be buying the Summer of Spider-Man Sampler while it is still less than 20 bucks a copy.

If promo items catch on, we might as well look at Previews and Comic Shop News. 

On 5/13/2018 at 7:09 PM, miraclemet said:

On 5/13/2018 at 6:46 PM, 500Club said:

There are historical precedents for what you are seeing.

After Marvel overused the Punisher in the 90s, ASM 129 was soft for several years.  Often, these serve as good entry points.

 The difference possibly being that once the show is done, is there a reasonable revival? Punisher had his comeback, and then haste bump from the Netflix show. 

It's only a good entry point if there's a future revival...but some things just stay dead

It’s a good argument... IF a future revival is needed.  I’m going to argue that WD has enough of a significance and place in the hobby alone, to ensure that WD 1 will remain a key book.  At a print run of 7000, you’re looking at a fraction of the supply of other key books that the hobby pays significant money for.

Personally, I’m hoping for a significant slump in prices, so I can take advantage.

There are historical precedents for what you are seeing.

After Marvel overused the Punisher in the 90s, ASM 129 was soft for several years.  Often, these serve as good entry points.

22 minutes ago, kimik said:

1 hour ago, thehumantorch said:

1 hour ago, Artboy99 said:

omg! they were in the van for hours

That was a sales meeting..

So that's what you old timers call it........................

That's what you call it when you don't want to be arrested again for solicitation.

6 hours ago, piper said:

This will be a fantastic show.  I only wish it wasn't the same weekend as Infinity War!

Why?  Are you planning on seeing the Director’s Cut five day long version?

8 hours ago, jason4 said:

Quick raid your LCS for Spider-Man 263 before they realize what’s up 

Only if you think Uncanny X-Men 201 is a big deal. 

5 hours ago, CKinTO said:

Good article yesterday on BC re:how Nick Spencer is preparing for his run on ASM. He's taking over after 801 when Slott's run ends!

https://www.bleedingcool.com/2018/04/19/to-prepare-for-amazing-spider-man-run-nick-spencer-read-every-spider-man-comic/

They should`ve told him to stop at 441.

Also, this made me laugh:   And I’m directly following one of the most acclaimed and successful runs of all time in Dan Slott’s,” Spencer continued, revealing that his judgement hasn’t really improved in the past six months.

3 hours ago, Lonzilla said:

Maybe he'll introduce a character he already owns, Madder Red. Or if he doesn't fully own it, a carbon copy. Whatever, I won't be buying it

Madder Red Goblin?

2 hours ago, kimik said:

Nick Spencer is taking over? That should drop Spidey monthly sales like a rock. 

What’s the worst he could do...?  Have Norman Osborn father children with Gwen Stacy? 

1 hour ago, Fantastic Thor said:

 

On 2018-04-11 at 7:00 PM, Quicksilver Signs said:

best ever post

 

Lemme guess... he had you at beaver...?

16 hours ago, kimik said:

On ‎4‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 1:49 PM, 500Club said:

What's wrong with Winnipeg?

Gives Oiler fans a Canadian team to watch, during their annual post golf rounds at the clubhouse.

Sitting side by side with Flames fans........

Flames fans are still on the course sharpening up.  Their golf game isn't as good, because Oiler fans get to practice every year.

At least we have the course to ourselves every year on draft lottery day.