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SpiderParker
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Posts posted by SpiderParker
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On 12/30/2023 at 5:30 PM, Silver Surfer said:
I’m actually more curious if a new slab design will need to be released asap in order to put this behind them.
This should be one of their top priorities. Stop all encapsulation until a new case is ready to roll. If not you're just sending out more bad ones.
Then have a voluntary recall of all existing cases. If I were them I would want as many of these cases off the market as possible. If not, there will always be scams given how easy book swaps are which CGC will be on the hook for given their guarantee.
Take the financial hit doing a recall or deal with scams for years to come, the financial loss of compensating folks and potential law suits, legal fees and so forth. Seems like a no brainer to me.
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On 12/30/2023 at 5:37 PM, universal soldier said:
I'm wondering when we'll hear what the "significant improvements" are.
Notice it says processes and nothing about the case itself.
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On 12/30/2023 at 5:35 AM, AbsoluteCarnage said:
Problem with CGC accepting MVS screw ups is it doesn't take into account the ppl that already scammed the system now trying to defraud cgc with books they torched themselves. People will definitely need a paper trail.
I agree people need a paper trail but how many cash deals are done at comic shows / cons? Transactions like this have no paper trail.
- jeffreyk, AbsoluteCarnage and brute_nm
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On 12/29/2023 at 10:15 AM, wombat said:
Is CGC's product not worthless if you don't have confidence the book in the slab is the same book that was sent to them and you can't tell the slab was opened up?
Exactly this. Hence why I think they need to institute a voluntary recall. If they want to stay the premier grading source for comics they need to take corrective action to get rid of or lessen the problem.
- Iconic1s and MagnetoWasRight
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On 12/29/2023 at 9:36 AM, Gator Guru said:
Someone may want more than one of they focus selling. Like have one account for strictly selling comics, another for thrift store finds and so on.
Change a name could be anything. You start a business and want to use your same eBay account you've used for years with feedback rather than starting from scratch with zero.
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On 12/29/2023 at 9:12 AM, agamoto said:
Honestly, the seal around the seams at the sides they have now is essentially performing the same function. A cracked open bottom quadrant is going to have very noticeable light refraction anomalies that do not match the rest of the ultrasonic seal around the case. I'm not sure Dr. Rick's suggested weld fix with a little xylene would be enough to restore that uniform seal.
It would be interesting to see more videos on this and before and after up close shots of someone taking their time and making it look good. Actually trying.
I don't think buyers scrutinize a case like they do the comic inside. As long as the case is sealed and nothing obvious sticks out, hardly anyone would think twice about any wrong doing. Collectors focus on looking at their new pretty comic inside.
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On 12/29/2023 at 2:00 AM, agamoto said:Then you have to consider just how easy it is to get in and out of the case. I think folks like Dr. Rick are making it appear easier than it is and that hasn't really helped. As he's made clear though, it's just a proof of concept video.
I'm pretty sure that once that sonic weld is busted on the slab, the light refraction properties of that seal go out the window, even with a solvent to the rescue to try and smooth it out.
I think it literally is that easy to get into the cases. Go get and look at one of your newer cases. There is only one 2" or so section that looks sonically welded. The entire bottom edge is just held in place by the 2 corner posts. Who knows of they are sonically welded or just snap bit heat definitely makes them come apart with ease as shown in his video.
As part of R&D of the case how is a heat gun / source not part of your research? Seems like the first logical thing anyone would try if they had ill intentions. Just seems negligent and lazy on CGC's part. Part of R&D should be this. Have a 3rd party or anyone for that matter try to tamper with it and you see the results. A "real world" test before you release it to the masses. If someone can tamper with a case and hand it back to you and you can't tell the difference then that's a problem.
I feel CGC needs to take better action. They literally have no idea how deep this goes. They can't just focus on one bad apple and think there aren't any others. They should immediately stop all holdering until they have a new case design or a new and improved way of sealing their existing case that's been TESTED. Then release what improvements they've made. This will literally keep happening forever given the millions of cases out there. Lastly, they need to have a voluntary recall on their slabbed books. This will never happen but it needs to happen. This is like any company that has a defective product doing a recall. Yeah, it's costly but do you want to acknowledge and give people the opportunity to get rid of the problem or turn your head and keep dealing with this for years to come? Not everyone would take part in said recall. If they still own the books they sent in for grading they know they are fine, however if a person ever decides to sell and it's not in the new case then it could hurt the resale value because who k ows how thos will affect the hobby. This is a horrible situation for CGC to be in but they put themselves in this with lack of security features in their cases.
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On 12/28/2023 at 1:41 PM, agamoto said:
What are they going to do about the design flaw in their slabs that allowed this to occur in the first place?
When are they going to tell us how many books out there are part of the pool of potentially relabeled books? Every single one of them is a possible swap-out candidate.
Not that it would have helped in this scenario, but if they plan to adopt new security methods, will the consumers who buy/sell/trade comics in their holders be educated on how to spot tampered cases?
When are they going to explain how this particular submitter managed to get such great grading success with virtually all his submissions when many folks just as experienced with comics struggle to hit 9.8's?
When are they going to explain how this particular seller somehow managed to get his books turned around in new cases and sold on the same day they were graded or within days?
Are they going to include the original grade date AND the relabel date on the verification page?
How do they plan to ensure us with certainty only a single individual is involved? Could there not be dozens, maybe even hundreds of unscrupulous people who did the exact same thing with missing MVS books? Missing pin-ups? high grade qualifieds? People who weren't so greedy, who never sold on eBay, etc.
I would love to believe it's one bad apple and this issue affects only a few hundred books, but that's tough to reconcile given human nature and the easy breezy way the CGC reholder/relabel process was breached.
They literally have no way of knowing how many books were or are effected. This is the ONE guy that got caught. Ths will be an issue forever as there is no way for them to rectify the millions of slabbed books in existence unless they have a voluntary recall to regarded and slab books in said cases assuming they have a redesigned method and case.
Plus if I have a Hulk 181 green label and swap it out with a blue label case and reseal it myself and sell it. I send the blue back through as a raw book for grading. There is literally no trace of any wrong doing here. Nothing to trace or track.
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I am not sure if this video has been posted but anyone can literally defeat a CGC case with a heat gun and some patience. This is a HUGE issue. The whole design and sealing method needs fixed ASAP.
I just looked at one of my McFarlane signature books from his last signing, which is the last time I sent in a book. The entire bottom isn't sealed like this video demonstrates, only the corners. As shown, this would be super easy to open without any marks or cracks to the case. There is only about a 2" section of the seal on my book that has been sonically(?) sealed and melted together. This needs done around the entire edge of the case or at a minimum, 2" sections on all 4 sides. This is a massive design flaw. Given the amount of books in these cases this will be an ongoing issue literally forever. It's sad.
- Steven Valdez, wiparker824 and Bo1983
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On 3/29/2023 at 3:12 PM, Lazyboy said:
Change comes from willingness to change. You just said you were unwilling to change, so how can you expect it from CGC? Why would they change with no incentive?
You guys expect me to stop collecting slab books because of this?
I'm just careful of what I buy. Getting them to want to change has to start somewhere sitting there and taking it is not the answer.
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On 3/29/2023 at 1:53 PM, Lazyboy said:
Then stop complaining, because nothing is going to change.
Change comes from new ideas and essentially complaining and coming up with solutions to problems. Having the attitude of "this is how it is, deal with it because nothing will change" gets nobody anywhere.
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On 3/29/2023 at 6:56 AM, theCapraAegagrus said:
"Common" does not mean "on every copy". It means that it's common enough of a MFG defect that it's not held against the grade, outside of keeping it from Mint/Gem Mint.
It would seem logical that a grading company would note on the slab or in grader notes of any acceptable MFG defect. Maybe that's asking too much.
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On 3/29/2023 at 7:03 AM, Nevah said:
You should stop collecting slabbed comics
No thanks.
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On 3/29/2023 at 6:37 AM, Nevah said:
Look up SCS, Shaken Comic Syndrome.
Interesting. Never knew about this. Poor case design? Obviously if you give an object room to move, it will.
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On 3/29/2023 at 6:52 AM, theCapraAegagrus said:
Well, if it's a common MFG defect, then it's not incorrectly graded.
I'm simply not sure if it is.
I don't think it is. I have seen other 9.8's that look like what we expect from a 9.8. No corner damage.
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Interesting to see all the responses. Thanks for sharing your thoughts everyone.
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On 3/28/2023 at 9:48 PM, 1950's war comics said:
i don't think coins can change inside the slab after being graded , comics can......
On 3/29/2023 at 1:13 AM, Lightning55 said:This, exactly. Who is to say that the comic looked like this at the time of grading?
Things can happen during shipping, handling, dropping
, etc. CGC only guaratees the grade as it exits the door. If the original submitter questions the grade, better or worse, they can ask for a review. A third party asking to review an apparent overgrade probably won't fly, since there is no way of knowing the history of the comic after it left CGC. No longer their problem.
I get your point but PCGS also guarantees paper currency the same as coins.
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On 3/28/2023 at 6:33 PM, Axe Elf said:
The real question is if a book has an inherent grade independent from the grader.
Is the book a 9.8 (or 9.6, or 5.0, or whatever), independent of anyone actually grading it, or is the book whatever a grader says it is, and it has no inherent grade until that point (and thereafter, it's grade is the grade the grader said it was).
In the first case, the book is not a 9.8 because it has the damage you highlighted, and in the other case, the book is a 9.8 because that's what the grader said it was.
Lol, way too philosophical. The community has a certain level of grading standards. If not, then the same book in different conditions would all sell for the same price. I have a feeling that if you blindly posted that book in the spare a grade forum that we would not see a single 9.8.
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On 3/28/2023 at 9:33 PM, Nevah said:
How is it CGC's fault if people don't do their due diligence?
Theoreticaly no one should have to if CGC does their job right and doesn't assign heinous grades. They are the "experts" in the grading community. I completely understand that grading is subjective but 99% of collectors would agree that the book in the original post is not a 9.8. So how does CGC the gold standard in comic grading give it a 9.8?
Look at it from both sides. How is it a buyers fault for paying a premium for a CGC graded book? Grading companies provide standards and authentication for collectors at every level. Many collectors would not touch certain books if they weren't graded. A certain feeling of confidence and trust goes into the premium pricing that graded collectibles command. Otherwise, why do they even exist?
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pic 3 looks like the weld.
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Try calling them, assuming you're doing everything online.
I know this doesn't help but for next time....
I have shipped and received a lot of packages in another hobby. That community almost always exclusively used USPS because of this. It seemed like anytime someone posted of shipping damages / issues it was FedEx or UPS. Don't get me wrong USPS is not flawless but far better from my experience.
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On 3/28/2023 at 2:52 PM, zzutak said:
One "solves" the problem by avoiding it in the first place (by passing on this specimen). It's called "due diligence" and it's exactly what you've done by requesting more detailed images to supplement the seller's listing. "Buy the book, not the label" is more important now than ever before.
100% agree on this. CGC needs to take ownership though because so many folks don't do this. They see the grade and buy based on that grade.
I'm just careful of what I buy. Getting them to want to change has to start somewhere sitting there and taking it is not the answer.
, etc. CGC only guaratees the grade as it exits the door. If the original submitter questions the grade, better or worse, they can ask for a review. A third party asking to review an apparent overgrade probably won't fly, since there is no way of knowing the history of the comic after it left CGC. No longer their problem.
ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC
in Comics General
Posted
Look back on page 174