InvstmntComcSuply

If the books are in mylar, will the acid in a non-acid free box pass thru the mylar?

I would think not.

 

I read that over time it would contribute to the overall deterioration, which was the whole point to this topic. Has anyone heard of or had any experience with the microchamber boxes at the URL below? Any thoughts about it?

 

http://www.conservationresources.com/Main/section_3/section3_5.htm

 

Does it offer the same advantages as the paper that goes inside the comics?

The microchamber boxes are made of board just slightly thicker than a fullback. Nothing like the corrugated cardboard used in "standard" comic long or short boxes.

Yes, it offers the same advantages as the paper that goes inside the comics

Has anyone asked why anyone would buy a comic book like Walking Dead #1 in the midst of a massive speculator hype filled 'bubble?' That is the better question.

 

 

Why? To flip it of course!

 

Silly

 

Actually, I am sure there are people that are convinced that we have not reached the peak yet. So why wouldn't they buy to flip. I imagine you asked the same thing when it was $1000 .....

 

 

Silly. You are missing the point. Someone has to be buying it from the 'flipper.' Therefore, to ask the question again and in another form, is this the perceived 'real estate' of the comic book industry? They just keep buying and selling, because the price will 'NEVER' fall, right?

 

If that doesn't say speculator hype to anyone here, nothing will.

 

BTW, to answer a PM, I am only 35, nowhere near 50!

 

Kind Regards,

 

'mint'

 

How can I be missing the point? My answer was pretty clear.

There are people who think they can still profit because they feel the franchise has not peaked yet.

 

I don't think that today's prices are going to be sustained long term, but to pronounce judgement on other's choices of "investment", is not my cup of tea.

 

 

 

 

 

By stating this, you seem to be 'missing my point.' Someone has to be left holding the bag. In a speculative bubble everyone ASSUMES that the price will go higher and higher until finally...common sense prevails and prices fall.

 

If kept for the short term, this is a no different than 'flipping.' Therefore one could make a fairly good argument that for those individuals who wish to engage in this; this is NOT an 'investment', but nothing more than a commodity.

 

Real estate, gold, no different. I wish the speculators the best of luck. Unfortunately, as stated (and history tells us this); most will lose.

 

'mint'

No, your point is quite elementary. (Please no more speculative bubble explanations again)

My point is also quite elementary: There are people with differing opinions than yours.

Has anyone asked why anyone would buy a comic book like Walking Dead #1 in the midst of a massive speculator hype filled 'bubble?' That is the better question.

 

 

Why? To flip it of course!

 

Silly

 

Actually, I am sure there are people that are convinced that we have not reached the peak yet. So why wouldn't they buy to flip. I imagine you asked the same thing when it was $1000 .....

 

 

Silly. You are missing the point. Someone has to be buying it from the 'flipper.' Therefore, to ask the question again and in another form, is this the perceived 'real estate' of the comic book industry? They just keep buying and selling, because the price will 'NEVER' fall, right?

 

If that doesn't say speculator hype to anyone here, nothing will.

 

BTW, to answer a PM, I am only 35, nowhere near 50!

 

Kind Regards,

 

'mint'

How can I be missing the point? My answer was pretty clear.

There are people who think they can still profit because they feel the franchise has not peaked yet.

I don't think that today's prices are going to be sustained long term, but to pronounce judgement on other's choices of "investment", is not my cup of tea.

Has anyone asked why anyone would buy a comic book like Walking Dead #1 in the midst of a massive speculator hype filled 'bubble?' That is the better question.

 

Why? To flip it of course!

Silly

Actually, I am sure there are people that are convinced that we have not reached the peak yet. So why wouldn't they buy to flip. I imagine you asked the same thing when it was $1000 .....

Don't you think there might be a few non-comic collectors, for whom grade is not the driving force, who might be interested in that book?

That is interesting that it says "To Play"

Why not To Use or To Start?

I would have thought that term didn't come into use until recorded media

.....

If I wanted to scam anybody would I be here explaining it??

I´ll be here until I can clear everything, thanks for reading me.

You skipped the part where you explained how a different book got in the CGC holder?

Oh, yes way!

Even looks like the same scan.

I am sure the winning bidder is going to get that book.

The CALpocalypse is upon us!

I would have thought the Hair would be a nice surprise.

Like the art on the sailor.

Seller definitely chose the right one for the top though.

Those have to be a pain to store.

Of Course! Maybe I shoud change tactics....

I hope the rumours of flaming new members aren't true.

Hate to disappoint.

 

Not sure I need the gloves, though. I love the idea, but...oh, who am I kidding. I'm buying some.

Gloves are great for high grade gems, and are almost required on many copper/modern books that pick up fingerprints if you look at them the wrong way. However, I found if you are handling any books with minute tears or chipping, the gloves can catch on small irregular imperfections. Books with those types of imperfections rarely have a need for gloved handling anyway.

There was a recent discussion on this - someone had talked to a conservator, and they said microchamber paper's effectiveness would probably outlast any of our lifetimes. One poster said he even sprinkled the trimmed edges throughout his comic boxes for added effect.

 

Yea... I am that guy... This is what i posted that day....

 

it also makes it easier for you to switch out micro-chamber paper as it becomes inert (which doesn't happen after 7 years - no matter what CGC says).

 

 

Hey man.... nice to hear of one similar to myself.... Dont know if you saw some of my posts in the deslabbing thread?

 

Yup, forgot about that one...although I believe that CGC put 7 years as a recommended time frame based on the limit of their testing (the 7 year period).

 

I don't think anyone should worry that their books are going to self destruct after the 7 year period of a book doesn't get reholdered. At least I personally wouldn't.

 

You are correct sir.... a response I gave in an older thread about this issue.....

 

I use Egerber boards and Egerber mylars for all my books. 5 sheets of microchamber interleaved in each book to deal with acidity. Someone earlier discussed the longevity of microchamber paper and how 7 years was conservative. Well I spoke with a gentlemen that was involved in the testing and creation of conservation resources microchamber paper. I talked to him when I placed my last order with CRI. I told him what CGC said about the 7 years inert thing. He laughed, and told me that microchamber paper was designed to protect valuable ephemera collections in the most polluted environments in the US... like the library's in our biggest cities. ie: New York, Washington DC etc.....

 

He told me the amount of pollutants and acids they pushed thru these papers during testing was staggering, and that realistically it could be 50 years before a sheet loses its acid nuetralization qualities.... If he wanted to sell paper he could have told me somthing different, so I tend to believe him. Real nice guy, and passionate about conservation. He told me that CRI loves comic collectors, they are quirky and different from the usual conversations they have with library archivest's.

 

Interesting info.

 

I've never heard of using 5 sheets of microchamber paper though. Why 5?

 

Good question....

 

When I did the initial research into this area of storage I followed threads here closely and learned a lot. On my own though I decided to go directly to the source when purchasing my microchamber paper and see if I could pick the brains of the people at CRI. I was hoping that the salesperson could connect me with someone who knew the molecular trap business inside and out….. Sure enough they were able to!

 

Anyway the acid byproduct that the newsprint creates migrates….. when CGC puts sheets of microchamber paper between both covers it does protect the covers from acid migration and in so doing discoloration. It also protects a good quantity of the paper near the covers… I asked the guy at CRI if this was suffiecnt in his view? He said that in order to ultimately protect all the paper to the ravages of time and itself you would need to interleave this paper between all pages similar to what archivist’s do with very important documents. But he agreed with me that this wasn’t really possible with comic book collections because of cost and time.

 

The pages most at risk of damage are the ones furthest from the microchamber paper, so I asked him what he thought a good compromise would be? He said maybe every 10 to 15 pages or so should be enough in his opinion to adequately protect all the pages of my books. So I told him my idea….

 

One sheet behind both covers…. One right in the middle of the book, and one sheet in the average middle of that….. that creates this……

 

 

 

 

He said yea, that could work…… I also in cutting the sheets down have leftover scraps.. these go into the bottoms and sides of my comic boxes and enclosures…. The paper doesn’t have to touch stuff to be effective…. It handles off gassing from all kinds of pollutants so I don’t waste the scraps that come out of the process of cutting sheets to fit books…. Any nasty compounds in the air around my precious books have to tackle the high volume of microchamber paper that exists in my comic boxes and enclosures…

 

I’m anal I know, its what I do…..

 

And of course I cant afford to do this with all my books…. Just my valuable books, bronze age and older stuff…..

 

I also keep a spreadsheet of my collection and highlight with a color all books that have been given the microchamber treatment…. Depending on the year it gets a different color. This way I can be sure what year any given book has been microchambered…. This project is ongoing, when I am bored or have a moment to myself and no family around I throw some music on, pull out my cutter, put on my white archivist gloves, get my Overstreet page quality card(OWL), and my microchamber paper and go to work. Any excuse to pull my books out of their EGerber mylar and full backs is a good enough excuse for me. While I am there my database is updated with page quality info and microchamber notification.

 

Why do I spend so much time keeping this data? That way in the future when I go back and change microchmaber paper to new sheets in like 10 or 15 years cuz I am bored.... I will know if there has been a change in page quality....

 

About 60 % of my old books have been “microchamberd” in the past 3 years. When I get done maybe I will do the moderns or I will find some other anal thing to do….

 

My wife says I should have been a archivist because I love the science of this.... I would love to do this or work on objects in a museum... Did you know there is a microchamber emulsion that can be painted on enclosures? but alas I am a graphic designer....

 

 

One day I plan on putting a blog post on my site on the two different storage plans I use to protect my books….

 

 

I must have missed this post.

 

Your five piece method is what I have been recommending for people with high $ books for a while (behind front and back covers, centerfold, and 1/4 and 3/4 of the way in). Three pieces (covers and centerfold) is what I recommend for mid $ books. Saddle stitch books you could put more sheets in, but I wouldn't put a sheet between every page, because it could stress the spine/staples/centerfold. Squarebounds this would be especially troublesome.

Do you really need to change microchamber paper frequently? I just put some in the my books, and would regret doing so if it means that I need to change it out once a decade.

 

You don't.

 

 

The microchamber is said to only function for seven years, so if you want it to do whatever it was you wanted it to do when you first installed it, you do need to change it every so often. If you don't care that it is inert and no longer working, you don't.

There is no "expiration date" on microchamber paper. It does not become inert or stop working after a specific time period. CGC has simply "recommended" reholdering after 7 years.

How much this "recommendation" is based on scientific evidence and how much is based on the promotion of a revenue stream is uncertain. However, I don't recall any study, scientific or otherwise, detailing the reduction of microchamber benefits over time.

An educated guess would be that microchamber paper will continue to function perfectly well as an alkaline reserve for decades on books that were initially slabbed without any acid hydrolysis going on as long as storage conditions are "good". However, if you have books that are already browning, brittle or otherwise have already begun to experience significant acidic degradation you should change these at least every 7 years as CGC has recommended.

I believe, he has everything set up for automatic relisting.

I think the TMNT has been discussed before. He had a very aggressive price on it. Not unlike many of the other books.

IIRC previous threads have mentioned that he rarely accepts offers more than a couple percent off his listed price.

I compete against him in Gerber Mylars on ebay.

I have never heard anything bad about him as a seller and would not hesitate making a large purchase with him.

Cal, I'll try to talk to you directly and rationally to try to get you to understand some reasons of why it's a "you vs many" situation.

 

Your "zany banter" isn't a good form of communication. People don't understand what you're talking about a lot of the time and it's hard to take you seriously when you communicate in such a way.

+10000000

The third person stuff is kinda funny the first couple posts, but you should realize that most readers discount everything you say because of it. It is human nature to have less respect for the arguments of those that communicate in a "less than serious" manner. If you truly want to be taken seriously, communicate properly.

interesting thread. glad someone bumped it up. it was a little before my time on here. buuut... i'm gonna use MS Paint and outline a couple of things. maybe it's just my imagination...

I would say you definitely have an active imagination

You'll fit right in

Was there not a claim on the BCW website that the Extenders "prevented acids, mold and mildew"? Similar to the claim from Dana Kellum?

We specialize in archival storage products and are a distributor for Gerber. The Gerber Mylites2 are a great complement to our pre-cut comic sized Microchamber interleaving paper (the .0025" thick, cotton version that CGC uses, rather than the thicker pulp based).

Halfbacks and Fullbacks make up less than 2% of our sales as we are handicapped by having to ship them twice, since Gerber doesn't drop ship. We regularly recommend customers buy larger board quantities direct from the factory, although we are not compensated for those sales.

I did have a conversation with Ken yesterday, although the specifics of the conversation vary somewhat from his description. Some of that variance is normal personal interpretation and some is just Ken being a salesman. To clarify:

Ken mentioned a couple of times that I "urged him to address" items. This is couldn't be further from the truth. As, I am sure he will attest, he doesn't need any outside encouragement.

Ken minimizes my concerns, which were not product specific. My concerns were that most of his assumptions were flawed, his arguments misleading and his conclusions inaccurate.

The following was not part of the conversation

Neither one of us are sure to what degree the E. Gerber Archival Mat Boards absorb the residual acid that migrates from a comic book, but we have agreed that we should work together to determine what testing methods should be used to demonstrate the degree to which E. Gerber Archival Mat Boards absorb acid.

The closest thing to this was my suggestion to have independent testing done on the various manufacturers boards with an emphasis that the boards should be "bought off the shelf at a comic shop" to approximate aging. I have no concerns whatsoever about the Gerber or Cole board. Buffered throughout boards such as Gerbers and Coles are the standard used by conservators everywhere for ephemera. I also specifically declined comment about Cole's extenders, because I have little knowledge about the product. I pointed out that Ken should have done likewise with the entire thread.

One of the points that we discussed is my conclusion, based on the data in Mike's study, that the acid from the SBS board does not migrate to the comic book. This conclusion is based on the fact that the pH level of the uncoated side of the new BCW Comic Backing Board was unchanged after two years of use.

I explained why the above is not "a fact", this is an inaccurate conclusion.

Further, that my conclusion is supported by Mr. Blackburn's statement that "a stabilized acid base process sheet of paper will not absorb any significant level of alkaline content from the coating."

The above doesn't agree with the data

Drew stated that he didn't believe that the coating was comprised of pure calcium carbonate. If he is correct, that might explain why the pH level of the coated board is 7.0 (as indicated by the data presented in Mike's study) rather than pH 9.0.

That would not come close to explaining why the pH of the coating was 7

Regarding Ken's use of the term "buffered" with the BCW "coated" board:

I challenged Ken yesterday to find a reputable manufacturer who claimed their product was "buffered" but had ANY layer which was acidic, let alone at least 95% (Ken's number, I think it is a significantly higher percentage) of the board.

I am in a time crunch and will have to address the rest this evening.

We certainly understand how SBS board works to absorb the residual acid migrating from the pages of a comic book

Mikes study showed the Brand spanking new BCW Solid Bleached Sulphate board has a pH of 4 with an already compromised super thin pH 7 coating. What scientific principle are you going to dispel today, that will have your board "absorb the residual acid migrating from the pages of a comic book"?

Cue the music. Start your

BCW boards are cheap. I thought everyone (even them) knew they sucked.

This is another misconception (unless you only meant cheap as in sucked rather than as in inexpensive)

Silver Size Coated SBS Board Pricing from BCW

Pack(s) Pack Price

1 $9.00

5 $7.43

10 $5.46

Same Size 3% Buffered throughout Board Pricing from Gerber

Pack(s) Pack Price

1 $8.50

5 $7.20

20 $6.50

Thus the Gerber board is even LESS expensive than the BCW in the lower quantities.

There simply is NO reason to use such an inferior product when a far superior product is available at a similar price point

You are referring to this post by Comic Doc and an email he received from BCW's "technical expert and Manager of Internet Sales" Dana Kellum

Mr. Kellum did not claim to be a "technical expert". If you read the e-mail again you will note that he said he was the Manager of Internet Sales.

 

Dana should be very familiar to you, as you also have a habit of copying and pasting semi technical information without attribute.

Again, if you read the e-mail more closely you will note that Mr. Kellum is making a comparison for our friend ComicDoc. And, he most definitely attributes the information on Bienfang Acid Free Board to the Royal Art Salon (with quotation marks). You're right about one thing, though; you can find this information, almost verbatim, on artsupply.com. Of course, you can also find it at foamcoreheaven.com, mediaforprinting.com, chicagoairbrushsupply.com, thefind.com and villagesupplies.net.

Keep on Dancing!

For anyone who wants to read the whole post which I linked they can see that the conversation with Dana Kellum was specifically about the BCW boards. To try to convince those not willing to do the legwork that, you, er, Dana, out of the blue brought up a completely different manufacturer's board as a conversation piece, is indicative of the depths to which you will stoop to defend your point.

So, Dana, for a company and a person who is so at home making up information as you see fit, I find it highly likely that the "independent testing" and the 4.36% alkaline reserve (and pH for that matter), which you tout is also completely fabricated.

When faced with evidence that clearly contradicts your opinion you simply deny it's validity. Otherwise, you might be compelled to explain how a board that you claim does not have a 3% buffer of calcium carbonate can have an alkaline reserve of 4.36%.

You need to rephrase that.

You have NO evidence that clearly contradicts my FACTS. I have not laid out opinions when talking about the science of Mikes Study in relation to the BCW boards and the buffered boards by Gerber. The data speaks for itself. The only one in denial is you.

I am going to repeat this, not because you don't understand it, because I know you do, but so that it does not get lost in the weight of your disinformation campaign:

Let me cut to the chase and summarize all of this for you.

 

Calcium Carbonate has a pH of about 9.5

 

The front of the NEW unused BCW board that is, according to BCW spray coated with Calcium Carbonate, tested out at a pH of 7 in Mikes Study.

 

This means that the coating that BCW applies has already lost almost ALL of its protective alkaline properties by the time it has been purchased.

 

Before it has even "seen" a comic book.

 

The super thin protective Coating on the BCW board will continue to get more and more acidic as it seeks equilibrium with the 24 point thick pH4 SBS board it is sprayed upon, even if a comic book is never placed upon it.

Now, go ahead with your dance. Ignore the Facts that I have laid out for you.

I think it is about time that we address this incredible disinformation campaign with the management team at BCW. I find it hard to believe that any company would risk their hard earned reputation on such flagrant misrepresentation of their product.

Can you give us the appropriate contact information Dana?

If BCW Comic Boards are not buffered then how would you explain an alkaline reserve of 4.36%?

 

Alkaline Reserve, ASTM D-4988-96 (%)

BCW Current Board 4.36 %

 

We are referring to a post that was made on this very forum regarding testing that was conducted in August of 2006. And, we are offering the same board today as we did then. Admittedly, the data is dated, but the technology behind the manufacture of SBS hasn't changed in decades.

You are referring to this post by Comic Doc and an email he received from BCW's "technical expert and Manager of Internet Sales" Dana Kellum

Hi Buddy

 

Our product

 

. Prevents yellowing

. Prevents acids, mold, & mildew

. Reacts to corrosive gases

 

 

According to the Royal Art Salon

 

"Bienfang Acid Free Board

This specialty Board is totally acid-free. This product features facing

paper with a ph between 7.7 and 8.5. It's also made with a calcium carbonate

buffer that provides many years of protection against pollutants that cause

paper to become weak, brittle or yellow with age."

 

Our Extenders are coated with calcium carbonate on both sides. I have our

products tested when they arrive here from the mills. I run three test

"Elmendorf tear test", a hot extraction pH test, and an Alkaline Reserve

Test. At the lab the samples are conditioned to standard TAPPI temperature

of 73 F and 50% relative humidity. During the last test done in Aug, 2006

we tested Our Standard Board (Current and Silver), Extenders (Silver), and a

competitive board from the major distributor of current comic books boards.

 

Acidity Alkalinity, Hot Extraction, TAPPI T-435 (pH)

BCW Silver Extender 8.35 pH

BCW Current Board 8.01 pH

Competitive Board 7.75 pH

 

Alkaline Reserve, ASTM D-4988-96 (%)

BCW Silver Extender 10.04 %

BCW Current Board 4.36 %

Competitive Board 3.69 %

 

Alkaline reserve. Nearly all alkaline paper contains calcium carbonate as a

filler. The average paper contains at least 2% and occasionally as much as

30% filler by weight. The standard requires only 2%. This calcium carbonate,

an alkaline reserve, keeps the pH of paper and board from declining as time

goes on. Even alkaline papers will eventually become acidic, without an

alkaline reserve.

 

Ours cost $3.40 for 200 theirs $186.00 for 200...Gee maybe I should raise my

price. I would test some else board but they are to expensive.

 

Thanks

 

Dana Kellum

Manager Internet Sales

This is the same Dana Kellum that copies and pastes his product information from numerous other websites all the while implying that BCW is using that product and meeting the highest archival standards when in fact he is simply quoting the information from other companies products.

The Bienfang Acid Free Board information is copied verbatim from Artsupply.com

The paragraph starting with "Alkaline reserve" is taken verbatim from The cool conservation website

The elmendorf tear test, hot extraction pH test, and alkaline reserve test could be taken from a number of Tappi websites.

Dana should be very familiar to you, as you also have a habit of copying and pasting semi technical information without attribute.

So, Dana, for a company and a person who is so at home making up information as you see fit, I find it highly likely that the "independent testing" and the 4.36% alkaline reserve (and pH for that matter), which you tout is also completely fabricated.

Besides the FACT that the so called "independent testing" completely disagrees with the data in Mikes Study which you do not dispute.