Mokiguy

My question is this. First, I understand that a restored comic will get a PLOD label, and I understand that a professionally done conserved book should get a Blue/Gray conserved label. So my question is about how the conservation work is looked at. For instance, If there is a tear on a page or a popped staple on the cover or inner wrap staple, or a partial spine split or a partial or complete cover detachment, or a detached center wrap, and if any of these are then repaired/conserved in a professional manner with archival Japanese Tengoju paper and wheat paste and/or Methyl Cellulose, all archival materials, and understanding that some or all conservation might be listed on the label or in the notes, but (this is the key part of the question), are the repairs/conservation then looked at as if they never existed prior to the conservation? As an example ....... does the grader no longer consider that the spine was ever split and now sees it as though there never was a split in the first place and only might consider spine wear affecting the grade (where the split was) but not the conserved split itself which would have been a much bigger hit on the grade than just wear? I suppose that's sort of trying to look into the mind of the grader ........ but that's what I'm asking.

I suppose I will have to buy their grading guide to see, unless somebody that already has their guide will chime in. But all they have here at the CGC site is exactly what I copied and pasted and that doesn't clarify the issue.

Thank you ........ that's an excellent answer, but because CGC isn't very clear on what a bindery chips size is in their opinion, I'm still in the dark as to what CGC means by no more than two bindery chips. Looking at your example, there are three bindery chips in a row. The first looks to be less than 1 mm by 1/2 mm, the second about 1 mm by 10 mm, and the third about 1 mm by 20 mm. Now if CGC would clarify what they think the size of a bindery chip is, I'd have my answer!

Looking at CGC's grading information area under Restoration/Conservation I read this ...... So what exactly is a bindery chip and how large is the size of two bindery chips? Thanks .......

DC superhero almost exclusively .................. have some Batman and Wonder Woman and Detective and the Flash, which seem the highest in demand and also command the highest prices ...... but I have a lot of Superboy, Superman, Jimmy Olsen, Lois Lane, Aquaman, Justice League of America, Green Lantern, Adventure Comics, Action Comics, Brave and Bold, World's Finest, and a smattering of others. I buy and bid on comics carefully and if they are more that I want to pay I pass the auctions/sales by. There are more fish in the sea another day. But with that said, just yesterday I won an auction for four early Lois Lane titles and these really are in need of some serious help. But a $22 winning bid plus $6 for the shipping was hard to beat. All 5 were between October 1960 and January 1963 and that makes them all 61 to 64 years old. Does that answer your question? .

Sorry, but this will be long. If you have the inclination and the patience to read through it all, I hope to hear your opinions. I need to start out my question by explaining and saying that I have no graded comics among my 652 book collection I have accumulated so far. Nearly all are late 50's to early 70's DC superhero type books. So my collection is mostly 50 to over 60 years old, Looking at my database, the average price I paid per book is just barely over $4, many at only a dollar or two, only 9 of the 652 books I bought were over $10, and even those nine never broke $20, So with that said, at those prices there are a certain percentage that have spine splits, one staple or two staple detached covers and/or centerfolds, some tears and some staining. Typical wear you could expect on many 50 to 70 year old comics you paid little for. I didn't buy these books to turn a profit. I'm over 70 and have really no intention of selling them ........ it's just my hobby and I'm enjoying collecting a number of books I used to read in my youth. But part of my fun is not just to collect them, but to improve them and make them the best I can for the age and condition understanding that some things can not be fixed but at least minimized. I can't remove color breaking creases, but I have bought a used heat press and can do wonders to the covers with it. But I also have been watching videos about conservation and restoration using Japanese Tengujo and Mulberry papers and leaf casting and Methyl Cellulose and wheat paste heat overlay press stain removal and all that other high tech conservation and restoration stuff, and now want to go there. Again, this is for my own enjoyment, though I must assume someday when I'm dead, these comics will change hands. There are no real key issues and so the time and effort I would put into them would never make sense financially anyway on non key issue books unless I'm happy with 50 cents an hour for my time. I am very skilled with my hands and am a perfectionist, always have been, and so assume my restoration efforts will be near professional. And that's the rub. Though these won't be graded, I still care that they would be thought of as professional conservation when finished and not amateur restoration. And so I am curious as to how more experienced long term collectors view this whole "fix up a book' vs just leave it original dilemma is viewed. Good idea or bad idea, what's your opinion? And by the way, I've read all I can and even at the CGC help pages it leaves me wondering about some of the differences between conservation and restoration, but since my books will never be graded, that's not really an issue, just my perfectionist outlook showing through. It's just how do you folks come down on the whole idea of leave it alone vs fix it if you can. And is there ethics involved. When I kick the bucket and somebody gets my books and sells them, they will be selling some conserved/restored books and will likely not even know and neither will the buyers. Is that unethical? Of course I'll be dead so who really gives a damn. Anyway, hope to open this discussion with some insightful comments from you all.

From what I can see, I believe your assumption about the possible grade reduction is to severe. You might be selling yourself short. Here's a few examples of blue label CGC grades with one staple detached ....... First Superman with first wrap detached at bottom staple, and then Superboy with back cover detached at top staple .....

A while back I made a post asking why folks would pay big bucks for certain comics and I used the word greed and speculation (bad choice of the word greed on my part), and there was a bit of grumbling and consternation by some members. Many if not most were denying that speculation had anything to do with paying some big bucks for certain comics, but rather paying the big bucks had more to do with affinity with a certain character or book. I didn't buy that argument then and don't now either. Most of you are far more sophisticated comic aficionados than I will ever be, but as the comic novice that I am, I find it hard to understand the issue people have with a detached centerfold, especially once it's encapsulated never intended to be read or opened again. I completely would understand your dismay if it was missing, but if it's only a staple pop or two to the inner wrap that you will never see? How does that change your love of a certain character in that book or the complete book, if not for the speculation factor that you feel cheated out of some perceived value?

So what's the grade? How can four people see this book so differently? .... 4.5/5.0 ..... 5.0 ..... 6.5/7.0 ..... 8.0 ....

Well you've proven the point now haven't you. I have never said a mean or even unkind thing to you, and yet every single time you have commented on anything I post, you go out of your way to ridicule or demean me. If that's what gives you pleasure, then go ahead and enjoy yourself, But take it from me. If you are really as wise and experienced as you so boastfully proclaim yourself to be, then you could do a great service here by helping newbies gain some knowledge rather than trying to demean them. It's not just me, I've seen your comments to others as well when you think their comment or question is beneath you. You almost always mock them or make fun of them rather than trying to help them. You have a chip on your shoulder my friend.

How come you're always a jerk? Most folks here answer question the best they can. They try and be helpful if they can, but you never seem to have a nice thing to say to me and to many others, especially those new to this hobby. So why do you have this big chip on your shoulder and why do you seem to garner pleasure from trying to make others look small?

No, that's not accurate. Here is a cut and paste about sizes from the net ......................... Know the difference in "standard" comic book sizes. The earliest comic books of the Golden Age contained 64 pages, enough to support 4 or 5 adventures within their covers. As the cost of paper gradually increased, the number of pages was reduced to 48, which accommodated up to 3 graphic stories, and then to 32, which usually meant a maximum of 2 stories. Also, while comic books consistently kept a height of 10 1/2 inches (26.7 cm), their width narrowed from the Golden Age dimension of 7 3/4 inches (19.7 cm) to a Silver Age width of 7 1/8 inches (18.1 cm), then widened to 7 1/4 inches (18.4 cm) in the 1970s and 1980s before narrowing to 6 7/8 inches (17.5 cm) in the 1990s. Bags for regular comics are thus broken into the following sizes: Golden Age: 7 3/4 x 10 1/2 inches (19.7 x 26.7 cm). This size accommodates Golden Age comics from 1943 up to Silver Age comics published in 1960. Silver Age: 7 1/8 x 10 1/2 inches (18.1 x 26.7 cm). This size accommodates some late Golden Age comics published in 1951 as well as Silver Age comics published as late as 1965, including annuals and 80-page giants published during that period. Regular: 7 1/4 x 10 1/2 inches (18.4 x 26.7 cm). This size accommodates comics published after 1965, including the late Silver Age and Bronze Age comics of the 1970s to mid-1980s. Current: 6 7/8 x 10 1/2 inches (17.5 x 26.7 cm). This size accommodates comics published since 1990.

I'm not a bean counter so have no clue, but I've wondered just how much extra profit the makers of comics made by trimming a 1/2" of paper off of comic widths around 1960 to go from 7 3/4" wide to 7 1/4", and then how much more again by lopping off another 3/8" inch around 1990 to wind up with a comic that's now down to 6 7/8" wide for modern day comics. At least they left the height relatively unchanged. Maybe there's an ex bean counter that now collects comics that will read this and let me know.

I'm not so sure that I could agree with that. First of all, in this computerized digital age that we live in, all those items that a book is graded on (as in my cheat sheet) are only a simple enter key stroke per item and then hit "print" after the last item and your done. Every reason for the grade is spelled out. I am sure that they must have a sheet that they already use as they grade, just not shared with the public. And as to whether or not there would be demand. As I said, it would not involve any extra time or expense other than a sheet of paper and some ink. Ask anyone that has ever had a comic graded if they would like a complete cheat sheet on everything that was graded that would be included with every submission, and I think you would have a 100% yes ............ if they didn't find a way to charge extra.

In previous posts I've mentioned that I also collect Morgan and Peace silver dollars, and I have the same question there as I ask here. And as I've said before, I rarely get a coin graded and as of yet have never gotten a comic graded, so this is purely curiosity on my part, wondering what others think. In coins it might be expressed on the holder as XF-45 (extremely fine - 45) or MS-63 (mint state - 63), and in comics it's 4.0 (very good) or 7.5 (very fine -), but neither one tells me much of anything, especially why. All you get is a number and perhaps a few words like white pages or cleaned. So isn't a grade in a way an appraisal? Since it pretty much establishes a value, and even helps raise the value by the very nature of it being appraised. Why is that different than a home inspection or appraisal, or a vehicle inspection and appraisal? It's all spelled out. The oil pan drips, small tear in the passenger seat, tires are mismatched, rust in the left rear quarter panel etc. You know why it was given the grade and value, but coins and comics remain a mystery, and as the curious novice to this hobby that I still am, it makes no sense. The suspicious nature in me thinks that the reason they keep grades mysterious is the same reason attorneys, courts and judges, still use archaic jargon and a 2,000 year old dead language for legal terms. If it was all simple and in plain English, maybe they couldn't charge $300 an hour. And one last thing ........ I grade my own comics and use this cheat sheet below. And I add this to the back side of every backing board of every comic I own, so if I grade a comic a 5.5, it's because of what those 38 items say about the comic, no mystery, and anyone can agree or disagree, but at least they understand why I graded it as I did. Why don't grading companies do the same? So as I said at the outset ...... I'm curious how folks in the hobby much longer than me feel about this.

That all makes sense except for the insuring part ...... that I don't understand. Who is paying the insurance and to whom and for what reason? Or are you just meaning about the cost to insure for shipping in case the book gets lost or damaged?

So then why did you say I don't get it when you just said the exact thing I said in my opening comment ....... because they can.

You are right ..... that was poor taste and I edited that out. But it would be nice if you took the time to actually answer my question rather than trying to denigrate me personally. Don't let facts get in my way you say ................ but what facts are you speaking of? you certainly haven't shared any. Everyone here gets it is not a fact.

So just why do grading services charge more for the same grading service and the same holder if the book is more valuable? It’s the same way with coins, and I never understood why. Are they spending more time grading a $2,000 book compared to a $100 book. If so, then the folks getting a $100 book are getting ripped off because the grader is not taking the time to properly evaluate a lesser value submission compared to a higher dollar submission. The only conclusion I can come to is because they can. Like what are you going to do about it?Grading is not like an auction where the auctioneer or auction company gets more money if the item sells for more. In an auction if an item sells for more, it is because bidders decided it was worth more and ran up the bid. And if nobody starts the bidding at the opening amount, the the auctioneer lowers the open until somebody bids. But a graded item is not the same. There are no bidders establishing the opening price, no guarantee that it will sell for a higher amount until it is actually sold. What say you?

Of course it's a "Funny" post ................. aren't we talking comics here?

Take a look at this reprint of Time #1 for sale on eBay .................... look at the back cover at the bottom right. This one says Printed in India which of course is not where the first edition was printed. So look at yours ................ https://www.ebay.com/itm/186275629399

No, this thread has proven a number of different things, mainly that there are many different opinions about what makes a comic valuable. But it's also become evident that some members, perhaps because they don't know enough themselves, for some inexplicable reason believe that their time is better spent analyzing and criticize fellow members of this forum rather than adding to the thread by commenting on the topic,

Your explanation about what happened to many old comics is a good one, and something I didn't consider when comparing coins to comics. But that still does not explain why one issue commands such a higher price than another. And that really was my question, wasn't it? I'm sure that a key issue was stuffed into that back pocket on the bicycle ride and read to death just like every other non key issue since nobody new a key issue from a hole in the ground back when they were printed 50 or more years ago. I think why this thread got off track was because I used the word "greed", and nobody wants to think of themselves as greedy, and so most of the comments tried to explain away that word when it came to them. In hindsight, that was not the best choice of a word for my question. But the other word I used, speculation was. Whether my simplistic assumption of print runs staying pretty much the same through out a year, or comics being worn out and thrown away at pretty much the same rate, key issue or not since no one new an issue would be a key issue at the time of printing. Not affinity for a character, not nostalgia, nothing explains the price disparity then other than speculation. And that's OK. My question was trying to understand why. It's still bloody nuts if you really think about it. Paying hundreds or thousands of dollars for a comic book. So thanks for all the comments, and my apologies for the word greed ............. bad choice of a word on my part.

Did you ever see the movie Cool hand Luke? The prison boss says to Luke ....... "What we've got here is... failure to communicate. Some men you just can't reach". Well what we've got here is a failure to communicate. And maybe you didn't mean it in a derogatory way, or maybe you did when you wrote, (I think it means coin collecting is a good fit for you, whereas other types of collecting might not be right for you). Can we stick to the point of the post rather than trying to psychoanalyze the poster? But I forgive you for that slight miscalculation. I think I need to call BS on anyone that shells out many hundreds or thousands for a comic book and then denies that there's any greed or even speculation, but rather $3,000 spent because they have an affinity for the character. You can have the same affinity for the character on a common $5 Spider-man Comic vs Amazing Fantasy #15. If you are willing to spend thousands on a book like that, it's not because you like Spidey and he makes you feel all warm and fuzzy and reminds you of your youth. I collect DC and in particular the silver and early bronze age superhero DC jenres. I have over 500 and I'm still collecting (sorry SOTIcollector, but it's a good fit for me). But nearly all have been had for a few bucks to maybe $10 to $20 for a few select issues. They are mostly average 4.5 to 7.0 condition with some I believe would grade in the 8's to low 9's if I would ever want to get them graded (I never will), and a few down around 2.0. I'm retired and have a certain affinity for Superman and Superboy, and Jimmy Olsen and Lois Lane, Wonder Woman and Batman, Green Lantern, Aquaman and others because I grew up reading them and collecting them reminds me of my youth. But it reminds me of my youth on $2 to $10 comics. Unless a person is wealthy, spending hundreds and thousands on a comic is either hope greed or speculation and not just affinity with a character.

I understand supply and demand, but the point I was trying to establish is that the supply about the coins I mentioned was created at the time of minting. and the demand is higher among scarcer coins, but the scarcity is and always has been real from the day they were minted. Comics on the other hand seem to have their demand established by pure speculation among collectors because a certain character showed up and has little to do with the amount of any particular issue produced. And that to me seems odd ....... sort of backward and ripe for a collapse some day like Tulips in Holland in the 1600 hundreds or more recently the dot.com bubble of the late 90's where people were throwing money at and buying any stock that was tech or had dot.com in it's name. I don't know much about sports trading cards, but didn't they also have a similar bubble and collapse and now only certain prized cards have any value? Personally I think a true scarcity is what should drive demand and not greed and speculation. But that's just my humble opinion.