Mokiguy

I found this very interesting. Looking at eBay listings for books to add to my low budget collection, I ran across a book I don't have ........ Superman #261. 20 cent cover price, Feb 1972, and comics price guide says it is just a run of the mill issue and worth $5.04 in 6.0 ungraded condition, ComicBookRealm has a 6.0 at $7.20, and Nostomania at $33.20, and yet almost all instances of this book being offered at eBay auctions are listed at $40. to $200. ............... and people are buying ungraded copies in various conditions at those prices. Sure, it's a racy cover but what of it? So can a key issue be created because people are willing to pay up for a racy picture? Here's an example of a a few that sold recently, one even calls it a "key" issue .................

I guess I'm just a simple man with simple pleasures, and before I go on with my spiel, I should say that of the nearly 500 silver age DC's I now own, none are graded, and I like it that way. But with that being said, here is my thought process that brought on this post from me this morning. I have a difficult time understanding why somebody would rather have say a 2.0 ratty but original book over a 6 or 7 restored if the restoration is so good that only an expert would ever notice? I get it that most folks wouldn't want to see amateur restoration on their comic that's noticeable to anyone, but if done in such a professional manner that in all respects it looks UN-restored or even UN-conserved, then why not? I realize that it must be a real bummer sending in a book to CGC and then getting back the dreaded "PURPLE LABEL OF DEATH" ....... eek!!!!! So if you sent it in and it took an expert eye with whatever forensics they employ to determine that it has been restored, why should that matter enough for them to give it the death label. I've been watching YouTube videos on comic restoration/conservation, and it seems to be a game being played where the restorer/con-server tries to do a good enough job on whatever they are doing to the book that it gets past the graders. So what does that mean? Well to me it seems to say that there are some graded books that people own that have been restored or conserved and it was good enough to fool the graders, and it was good enough to fool you, after all you own it and are none the wiser and only the original con-server/restorer knows. Like that old commercial from the 60's for Clairol hair color that asked, "does she or doesn't she, only her hair dresser knows for sure" And that gets me back to my original thought about buying a nice conserved/restored vs a known original but low grade. Perhaps it's money that's the culprit. I imagine that if you are buying books as an investment and intend to have them professionally graded, and are then surprised by that purple label, it very well could matter. Maybe because I collect for the pure enjoyment and financial gain from the books I like to buy has little to do with my fun little hobby. I have no intention of ever getting any of mine graded .................... and perhaps that's why I don't completely understand.

I recently acquired a decent 1962 World's Finest issue. I think it will grade out at 4.5 or 5.0 ....... but I discovered that the original owner (I assume) wrote in ink their first and last name in the top and bottom margins of the first page. I'm not looking for an overall grade here or I would have posted this in "Buddy can you spare a grade". I'm just curious about something like this, especially if it's not in a high grade book. Would it affect the grade at all as a 4.5 or 5.0?

So this morning I was wondering about comic issue print runs for silver age books. I found that it's a tough search to find accurate answers to print runs, and best I could find was generalities, but consensus seems to say that average print runs for a single silver age DC or Marvel was 200,000 to 500,000 issues. So that got me to thinking about Key issues and Grails. At the time of publishing an issue, there would have been no reason to publish and more or less issues of a single book because it contained Lois Lane being black for that issue, or the first appearance of a character like the Batman's Poison Ivy issue, or the Fantastic Four Black Panther issue, or many others. If the Fantastic Four #51 had a run of say 300,000, then they probably printed 300,000 Fantastic Four #52 as well. But Fantastic Four #52 is worth 10 times as much as Fantastic Four #51 because it has the first appearance of Black Panther. OK, I'll get to the point here. I have collected Morgan and Peace silver dollars a lot longer than I've been collecting comics, but what I know about Silver Dollars and most coins for that matter, is that rarity is what drives the value of one year or mint mark above another assuming condition is the same. Low mintage coins bring higher values than high mintage runs ....... makes perfect sense to me. But comics seem to be driven purely by speculative demand since print runs are virtually the same for a common or key issue, and that makes no sense. Well that's what was rattling around in my brain this morning.

I appreciate the answer, and think you are correct, but I wonder if they didn't mean all dents in the cover, not just those from the shipping and baling process. I suppose that the whole point of pressing a comic is to remove bends, creases, wrinkles and dents and possibly bale marks.

I use this program to help me grade, and there is this one area where I just don't exactly know what it is that they are calling "dent and bale marks". I tried googling to no help, and the picture they include is too small to help. So I'm hoping someone can explain "dent and bale marks" to me in plain English. Thanks ......

Well first of all you will need to learn basic grading. Grading is subjective and and no two people will see a book exactly the same. But since you want to know what your collection is worth, you need to be brutally honest about the grades you assign to each book you own. I've gone through this with both coins and comics. When I first started out with each, I was over grading. I imagine I was trying to make myself feel good about my abilities at getting bargains. After a while I began to re grade what I had to better reflect the true grade as others might see them. Even at that, you'll never know for sure, but at least you're being honest with yourself and your collection. There are programs out there that will allow you to build a database for your collection. I chose to do it myself on my laptop and made a database in Excel. I'll add a picture of part of it. Once I have a comic graded, and after bagging and boarding, I check three price guides. I have the latest copy of the Overstreet comic price guide. I also use on line ComicspriceGuide.com, and Nostomania.com. I combine all three values that they say a raw comic is worth, divide that by three to establish an average. And I check that against eBay to see what others are asking for a particular comic, and also what they have recently actually sold for. That's difficult because I find that many sellers over estimate grades on eBay and so to get an actual comparison to my own comic, I need to look at each recent sold comic to see if they really are a let's say Fine/Very Fine as the seller says or if it's just a Very Good+/Fine- or worse. I find that the comics I have will generally be worth anywhere from that average value in my database to maybe only 50% of that value.That's what I do. I have no intention of selling my collection, perhaps just a few here and there that I have doubles of, and I realize that over time prices will change but I do all this to establish a value at the time I purchase the comic against what I paid for it. And I'm honest with myself about what I paid as well. I always include shipping in the cost of the comic, because that is part of what I paid for it. I usually buy in bulk so as to spread the shipping across many books to keep it down. Well I hope that helps you establish a value to your collection. Just don't get your hopes up too high since most of what you listed is pretty new. As an example I looked up just one of the comics you listed, the 1987 series Flash #32. ComicsPriceGuide.com as a 6.0 at .95 cents. Overstreet doesn't even list a price at a 6.0, but has a 9.2 at $5, so I'll assume that a 6.0 isn't any higher than a dollar. Nostomania has a 6.0 at $2.15 ....... so the average is $1.36, and since it's not that old, you can probably estimate the real value at 25% to 50% of that $1.36. Below is a small piece of my database as an example.

I'm curious as to how you came to have such a vast and possibly valuable collection. From how you pose your questions, it appears that it was not you, but rather these were inherited from somebody that did have this love of comics, like many folks here, and you've inherited this collection and are concerned with their value. So I think that the first place to start is not their worth, but to consider who it was that amassed this collection. Try to view things through his or her eyes, look at each book and try to see what they saw, and perhaps then you'll learn to love both the comics and the collector more for what they are and who they were, rather than the value that will have less importance. That's my philosophical 2 cents for this morning.

Yes, I understand your rational for your own books, and in essence that's what I am trying to do with mine. But your "would be could be except for ........" is exactly the point I'm trying to get away from. I am sure we will never know exactly how much a partially or fully detached centerfold or cover will lower a grade, but as in the example I pasted from that Youtube video, it is a book with two complete centerfold pages detached and it still got a "blue" 6.5, whereas Overstreet says 2.5 max for a single centerfold detached. 2.5 for one detached centerfold vs 6.5 for two completely detached center pages ........ that's not even close, and that's what my original post was questioning.

So do you think that he made up fake CGC slabs for the video then? Here's a screen shot from within the video showing a 6.5 grade with two centerfolds detached ......

I grade my own comics for my own satisfaction. I've never sold a comic but work hard and trying to get the grade close for my own comic database. Up until the other day, and because I have been using an on line grading tool along with the Overstreet Grading Guidelines, I never graded a comic with a detached centerfold even at only one staple above a 4.5 .............. that's how Overstreet has it ........ 4.5 max for one staple, 2.5 max completely detached. And then I watched a video of some long time collector on YouTube and he had a cheat sheet, and on his cheat sheet he has comics grading as high as 9.0 with one staple detached and 7.0 with complete centerfold detachment. He also showed CGC slabs in the video that graded as high as 7.5s with noted detached centerfolds. I understand the rest of the book matters, but have I been wrong all this time automatically downgrading to 4.5 with one staple and max of 2.5 with a completely detached centerfold? And then there's the detached covers .......... his cheat sheet max 6.0 one staple, 4.0 completely detached. Overstreet has it at max 4.5 one staple, max 2.5 completely detached. So what gives?

Was wondering if anybody has any experience with this stuff. I collect DC Silver age books and have a few that are fairly nice, but they may have a detached cover or centerfold. Reading about the product, it says that it is used for paper repair. So have any used this stuff? Does it show if used sparingly like in a fine line, and is it completely invisible when dry? And if you want to comment on the merits of restoring, you're welcome to do so but right or wrong is not what I'm asking about. These are my own low dollar books, I'm beyond retired and so will most likely die with them. I mean it's possible that I might want to sell them someday, but at present that's not what my plan is and so restoring them is purely for my own enjoyment. So anyone familiar with the product and process?

I think I placed this in the wrong forum and would delete it here if I could. I am posting this in the restoration forum.

Was wondering if anybody has any experience with this stuff. I collect DC Silver age books and have a few that are fairly nice, but they may have a detached cover or centerfold. Reading about the product, it says that it is used for paper repair. So have any used this stuff? Does it show if used sparingly like in a fine line, and is it completely invisible when dry? And if you want to comment on the merits of restoring, you're welcome to do so but right or wrong is not what I'm asking about. These are my own low dollar books, I'm beyond retired and so will most likely die with them. I mean it's possible that I might want to sell them someday, but at present that's not what my plan is and so restoring them is purely for my own enjoyment. So anyone familiar with the product and process?

Curious to hear from folks that have both and what they think of each. Is one better than the other in your opinion. Would just like to hear what ever you have to say about these two books.

No, I didn't see anything that I would think is much more than average run of the mill 1960's DC's. It's a shame since you put a lot of work into those books to display them that none of them are key issue books worth a mint. But though not valuable, those types of DC's happen to be what I collect. I think I'm trying to relive my youth. Most folks are into Marvel these days, but I grew up on these exact same DC's that you have and are asking about. Don't know what your plans are but I'm interested if the price can be worked out. Let me know.

Superman and friends, that's all I ever read, guess I was pretty lucky nobody ever caught me!

Apparently some of you misunderstood what I said. I thought I was clear. There is discussion about bad restorations, and I said cleaning or restorations that can't even be detected by the average person. So bad restorations is not at all what I wanted to discuss. Also it was said by some that an un restored car is worth more than a restored car. That really is a matter of debate, since it's just about impossible to find a 60 year old un restored car in factory or showroom condition. You might be able to find a pretty nice 57 chevy, but never as nice as a perfectly restored 57 chevy. So if you were to use the same sort of scale on a car as on comics, your near perfect 57 chevy unrestored would be a 7.5 to 8.5 and your restored 57 would come in at a 9.8. I get it that having a untouched 7.5 comic over a restored 7.5 comic might be what you want. But if you could have a 9.8 that was restored so well that you couldn't tell, why does it matter? That was the point. In coins I have seen some that you could examine a hundred ways to Sunday, and never see a cleaning that a TPG says is there. So the value is reduced because they said it was cleaned on the label. That's my point. If it takes forensics to see a defect, then why does it matter.

I've never quite understood the problem that TPG's and many collectors have with a nice looking comic. First let me say this. Before I began collecting some comics, I collected (and still do) Morgan and Peace dollars. And the collectors and the TPG's had/have the same issue with coins that have been cleaned. I have never understood why. Certainly we want to know that what we are buying or collecting is real. I mean who want's to pay for a one carrot diamond only to find out it's a man made zircon. But once it's established that what you have is real, why do people care if its been cleaned or restored if the finished product looks good. If the cleaning and/or restoration is so good that only a professional under microscope, certain lighting or other sophisticated forensics can even determine if it's been cleaned or restored, why should it matter. If you go to the Louvre in Paris to see the Venus De Milo or Florence to see Michael Angelo's "David", do you think that they have 2.000 years worth of dirt on them or do you think they have both cleaned them and keep them clean? Yet with a comic or a coin it's such a big deal to clean or restore them that they give them a different label or notation and an accompanying reduction in value.. Now the Venus De Milo has both arms broken off, and we certainly wouldn't want to have some new arms fitted to that famous statue, just as we wouldn't want some amateur or even a professional coloring in some missing centerfold pages of a comic. But re attaching a cover or centerfold that was detached, or repairing a rip or removing stains, how is that any different than reattaching her head if it were to fall of. Would it make that any less of a famous statue? Would her value be cut in half? If the outcome looks better than if left alone, so what? So that's what was rattling around in my head this morning, anyone want to share their view?

Not that I want to exclude any answers from newer collectors, but I really hope that there are some comments from folks that have been collecting for 40 years or so, if there are any here. I just started collecting comics the last couple of years, and collect almost exclusively Superhero DC Silver Age. That's what I grew up on and suppose I'm reliving my youth in a way. I am a low dollar collector so I buy nothing graded and nothing rare. I've noticed that the books I collect seem out of favor with most collectors today. Looking at what interests collectors today, it appears to have much to do with what's in the movies. Superman, Superboy, Lois lane, Jimmy Olsen, and along with that all the books like Action Comics and Adventure comics and World's Finest and others that mostly featured these same characters, really seem to have taken a back seat to all the Marvel Characters and the comics they are in. Except for maybe Wonder Woman and Batman .............. but they are still making some of those character movies. So is the comic collecting world really that fickle, driven by Hollywood? And what happens when Spider-Man, Iron Man and Wolverine are no longer in vogue? Will they go the way of Superman? So the question for the 40 year collectors, if there are any. When all the Superman Movies were hot, were the DC superhero comics also?

I just thought I'd share what was rattling around my head this morning. It seems to me that grading is more complicated than it needs to be. Like attorneys (and don't get me going there) have all their Latin terms and procedures ....... why. Why in 2023 are we using Latin language ...... corpus delicti, de facto, habeas corpus, mea culpa, pro bono ............... why? Is it to keep the law mysterious so that a person must go bankrupt in his/her defense because they can't play the Latin Game? So what about grading comics? Must it be "mysterious"? Couldn't there be a grading scale that anyone could use? A tick is worth one point, a quarter size stain 10 points, a detached centerfold 10 points, two pages detached 20 points, a quarter inch tear 2 points, two quarter inch tears 4 points, half inch tear 5 points, etc.? When you are all done you add up the points and there's your grade. I get it, people say it's the combined plusses and minuses that make the final grade ........ but why, that's the point? I imagine that keeping it mysterious is sort of like using Latin terms in the law ............... if it was all in plain English, we wouldn't need high priced attorneys, and if it was less mysterious we wouldn't need TPG services. Well that's what was up in that foolish brain of mine this morning, and now that I've emptied it out I can go on with my day!

So sure, I was recommended to post a comment in the "Brother can you spare a grade" about this dents bumpy lumpy conditions ........ and I did .......................... and I got two comments, and neither addressed the bumpy lumpy dented condition. Don't get me wrong, a hearty thank you to the two that at least commented on that comic.. But it appears to me that this condition is difficult to assess for many, whether here where I asked about it generally, or there where I posted a lot of pictures and used a specific comic. I imagine that I will have to come to my own conclusion about how I address this in the future. But thanks, really thanks, to all the chimed in.

For a 61 year old book, I don't think it's too bad overall and would have a pretty good idea of what I think the grade would be without all the bumps and lumps on the cover. The other day I posed a question in the Newbie forum about how to grade lumps, dents and bumps. And that's why I'm posting this book ..... I was recommended to do so. I tried as best to photograph the dents and bumps, but it's tough to do, So I am hoping that you don't just grade the book but if you would please explain how you asses that lumpy bumpy cover and how it plays into your overall grade. And the glare makes the cover look abraded, but it's just the glare from trying to show the bumps dents and lumps. Thank you

I appreciate the advice, but my question wasn't about a particular book, just all books in general that have a condition as I mentioned. I'm just trying to get a feel how other folks tackle this. I have some where otherwise they are a pretty decent book, but the cover just isn't smooth and looks abused and was wondering how others grade that sort of condition.

Well first of all I understand that many cover defects can be removed by pressing. But almost exclusively I collect silver age DC comics, and most are common and non key. So unless I want to invest my own time and money to buy my own press, paying others to do so on a non key raw never to be graded comic doesn't make a lot of financial sense. But with all that said, that is not why I am asking this question. The question is simply how to grade a bumpy lumpy dented cover as it is, not how it could be if cleaned and pressed? And I'm not talking about water damage warping or folds and creases, just mishandling, opening the cover roughly, placing or even dropping objects on the book ....... how ever books get that way after 50 to 60 years of comic abuse. Thanks