Mokiguy

Not that I want to exclude any answers from newer collectors, but I really hope that there are some comments from folks that have been collecting for 40 years or so, if there are any here. I just started collecting comics the last couple of years, and collect almost exclusively Superhero DC Silver Age. That's what I grew up on and suppose I'm reliving my youth in a way. I am a low dollar collector so I buy nothing graded and nothing rare. I've noticed that the books I collect seem out of favor with most collectors today. Looking at what interests collectors today, it appears to have much to do with what's in the movies. Superman, Superboy, Lois lane, Jimmy Olsen, and along with that all the books like Action Comics and Adventure comics and World's Finest and others that mostly featured these same characters, really seem to have taken a back seat to all the Marvel Characters and the comics they are in. Except for maybe Wonder Woman and Batman .............. but they are still making some of those character movies. So is the comic collecting world really that fickle, driven by Hollywood? And what happens when Spider-Man, Iron Man and Wolverine are no longer in vogue? Will they go the way of Superman? So the question for the 40 year collectors, if there are any. When all the Superman Movies were hot, were the DC superhero comics also?

I just thought I'd share what was rattling around my head this morning. It seems to me that grading is more complicated than it needs to be. Like attorneys (and don't get me going there) have all their Latin terms and procedures ....... why. Why in 2023 are we using Latin language ...... corpus delicti, de facto, habeas corpus, mea culpa, pro bono ............... why? Is it to keep the law mysterious so that a person must go bankrupt in his/her defense because they can't play the Latin Game? So what about grading comics? Must it be "mysterious"? Couldn't there be a grading scale that anyone could use? A tick is worth one point, a quarter size stain 10 points, a detached centerfold 10 points, two pages detached 20 points, a quarter inch tear 2 points, two quarter inch tears 4 points, half inch tear 5 points, etc.? When you are all done you add up the points and there's your grade. I get it, people say it's the combined plusses and minuses that make the final grade ........ but why, that's the point? I imagine that keeping it mysterious is sort of like using Latin terms in the law ............... if it was all in plain English, we wouldn't need high priced attorneys, and if it was less mysterious we wouldn't need TPG services. Well that's what was up in that foolish brain of mine this morning, and now that I've emptied it out I can go on with my day!

So sure, I was recommended to post a comment in the "Brother can you spare a grade" about this dents bumpy lumpy conditions ........ and I did .......................... and I got two comments, and neither addressed the bumpy lumpy dented condition. Don't get me wrong, a hearty thank you to the two that at least commented on that comic.. But it appears to me that this condition is difficult to assess for many, whether here where I asked about it generally, or there where I posted a lot of pictures and used a specific comic. I imagine that I will have to come to my own conclusion about how I address this in the future. But thanks, really thanks, to all the chimed in.

For a 61 year old book, I don't think it's too bad overall and would have a pretty good idea of what I think the grade would be without all the bumps and lumps on the cover. The other day I posed a question in the Newbie forum about how to grade lumps, dents and bumps. And that's why I'm posting this book ..... I was recommended to do so. I tried as best to photograph the dents and bumps, but it's tough to do, So I am hoping that you don't just grade the book but if you would please explain how you asses that lumpy bumpy cover and how it plays into your overall grade. And the glare makes the cover look abraded, but it's just the glare from trying to show the bumps dents and lumps. Thank you

I appreciate the advice, but my question wasn't about a particular book, just all books in general that have a condition as I mentioned. I'm just trying to get a feel how other folks tackle this. I have some where otherwise they are a pretty decent book, but the cover just isn't smooth and looks abused and was wondering how others grade that sort of condition.

Well first of all I understand that many cover defects can be removed by pressing. But almost exclusively I collect silver age DC comics, and most are common and non key. So unless I want to invest my own time and money to buy my own press, paying others to do so on a non key raw never to be graded comic doesn't make a lot of financial sense. But with all that said, that is not why I am asking this question. The question is simply how to grade a bumpy lumpy dented cover as it is, not how it could be if cleaned and pressed? And I'm not talking about water damage warping or folds and creases, just mishandling, opening the cover roughly, placing or even dropping objects on the book ....... how ever books get that way after 50 to 60 years of comic abuse. Thanks

That's very good idea. Since I am doing my own grading, bagging, boarding and cataloging for my own satisfaction and not to resell, at least not for now, maybe never .......... Having that additional grade with the notation on those books would serve me well if things changed and I ever did want to sell them in the future.

Thanks, that's a very good and interesting answer to my question, but unfortunately now creates another question. What would the grade have been sans the detached centerfold? 9.0, 9.2, 9.6, 9.8 ......? How much did the detached centerfold actually lower the grade? Perhaps my original question will not be so easily answered. As you said "a comic near perfect" seems to have lowered 5 or more grades. Obviously though there was enough room starting out at 9.0 and above. But what about a comic that would grade say 6.0 without a detached centerfold. Do you think that there would be the same 5 or more grade reduction?

Yes, I understand that, but I only collect raw books for my own satisfaction, and like to grade them myself, so obviously I wouldn't give myself a "qualified" label. But what I was wondering is what the CGC guide says about loose or detached centerfolds, or do they only address it the same way you mentioned and don't really clarify it for a home grader/collector.

I don't have the new CGC grading guide but have gotten fairly good at grading my own comics through other learning sources. But there are a few areas where I am not so sure of myself, and the centerfold is one of them. The Overstreet guide has the grade for a comic with a centerfold loose or detached only as high as 2.5 regardless of any other comic condition. At 3.0 to 4.5 it may only be detached at one staple, and at 5.0 and above it may be loose or slightly loose up to 6.5, but not detached. So my question is ...... is the CGC guide as firm on the centerfold grades as the Overstreet guide, or is there wiggle room depending on the condition of the rest of the comic? Thanks ........

When I first started this thread, I really was only making an observation about how I thought it strange that part of a comics TPG grade is locked away, never to be seen again, unless one chooses to destroy the TPG grade by opening the sealed case. I never meant for this thread to go anywhere but there, but it has, and that's OK. But I'm going to share a final thought on my posts original intent. I still cannot think of a single item other than comics or magazines that are graded, appraised or judged, and then sealed after that grading, appraising or judging, and so part of that grade, appraisal or judgement can no longer be seen in order to either agreeing or disagreeing with that grade, appraisal or judgement. The Morgan and Peace dollars I collect ....... you can see every part of a TPG grade and decide if you think it accurate, low or high. Paintings, old cars, pottery, virtually every antique item, stamps, paper currency, old firearms, or a thousand other items are either never sealed or sealed but all parts graded are visible so anyone can see everything taken into account to arrive at that grade or appraisal. That's all I meant and the entire point of my original post. I don't have the answer, and most likely there is no answer and the only possible way that a TPG can stand behind their grade is to do exactly what they do. But I just found it strange or interesting or just different that comics and magazines are alone in this distinction.

Wow, how profound ...... I'm in awe!

I don't understand your comment, perhaps you could explain it better to novice like me. I thought I was making the point that a comic once it is slabbed it does in fact become a two dimensional object. How is a coin any different than a comic then? If you are not counting the edge of a coin why but count the edge of a slabbed comic?

No I'm not assuming that at all, but the whole point of my post was that the inside becomes totally irrelevant once it's slabbed. If you open it then it is no longer slabbed or technically graded, since no TPG will stand behind a grade once the slab has been opened.

You can't read and enjoy the inside of a comic either once it's slabbed ........ that was the whole point of my post.

But verifying authenticity is different that caring what's inside a coin. Of course we all want to know if what we collect is genuine. I still own 6 fake Chinese Morgans that I purchased from 6 different sellers early on in my silver dollar collecting. I don't consider them as part of my collection, just an oddity. But I don't care what's on the inside of them anymore than I care what's on the inside of a genuine Morgan or Peace dollar, I only care that's it's genuine. The silver content is irrelevant as far as numismatic value. Once a silver dollar is determined to be genuine, a silver dollar is graded on it's exterior only. If it's not genuine it's not it won't be graded. Perhaps my analogy of blank pages sent you off in the wrong direction. I should have said tears or staining or coupon cutouts or whatever shouldn't matter anymore than weight tolerances of a Morgan dollar don't matter. A brand new Morgan when minted should weigh 26.73 grams, plus or minus almost one gram. An older worn Morgan can weigh as much as two grams or even three grams less depending on how worn, and yet none new or old is graded on it's weight or silver content, only the obverse and reverse ...... what's visible once it's determined to be genuine. Perhaps a coins weight is a closer analogy to inside condition of a comic than blank pages.

I'm still fairly new to the whole comic collecting thing, but just now as I was going through a book page by page in order to assign it a grade (for my own database), looking for completeness and soiling, coupon cutouts, page color or tears or any other interior defect, it dawned on me how silly it all seemed. I don't collect slabbed comics and have no intention of getting this one slabbed and graded, but couldn't help but think and wonder why anything other than the front and back cover mattered. Once a comic is double sealed in a holder, no one will ever see the inside again. You could fill it with 32 blank sheets of paper and nobody would ever know. And yet a book with missing pages or coupons that have been cut out or even a detached centerfold or some large tears can take a book from valuable to chump change. Before I started collecting comics I collected (and still do) Morgan and Peace Silver Dollars. They are also third party graded, but nobody cares what is on the inside of a coin, and all you see in a slab is the obverse and reverse,and that's all it's graded on. Sports cards, Stamps, paper currency, autographs ....... all these things are graded solely on what you can see, only comics and magazines are graded on things you will never see once encapsulated. As the headline says, that was just my thought this morning, perhaps a silly or novice thought, and I hope you don't think it too foolish of me for sharing.

Well since there is no silver age ending date consensus, I'm going with 73 for Marvel and 74 for DC. That seems to be a middle ground, not the earliest like 69, and lot the latest like 75.

Just looked this up on line before I started typing this out ................. The encyclopedia Britannica article says 1956 to 1969. Wikipedia says 1956 to 1970 Biowars says 1956 until the “early” 70’s and Bronze age beginning in 1973 Cosmic comics says 1956 to 1975 MileHigh Comics says 1956 to 1975 with Bronze age beginning in 1976 Looks like a consensus on when it started but when did it end ..... when is a silver age comic a silver age comic book?

I don't know what telltale signs of dry cleaning look like, so I take your word for it ....... but if it was it wasn't me.

This one has me stumped. Overall it's pretty clean for a 50 year old book. But there is one area at the top edge and I can't tell if it's water damage or printer ink. I've seen other books where it's actually into the pages, but this is almost strictly on the edge with just a hint of bleed on the front and back and so little on interior pages it cant be seen with the naked eye. It's not mold either. Definitely has the appearance to me of ink, and I read in another post here at CGC that printer ink is not a downgrade. So looking for grade and opinions, thanks. And that little chip on the front cover is the only chip or tear on the entire book. Bottom right corner ding.

Look, I really do appreciate you and everyone else that is trying to help ....... and I think many of the ideas mentioned including yours have a lot of comic book collecting wisdom to them. I just thought your 25% was on the low side. And it has absolutely nothing to do with what will make me happy. If I was looking to be happy, I would never have asked and started this thread in the first place. Heck, I could have just used the highest price guide I could find like ComicBookRealm, put those numbers into my data base and patted myself on the back with every comic I bought. I may be new to comic collecting, but I am not new to collecting. For years I have been collecting Morgan and Peace silver dollars, and since I also mostly bought raw coins, I had the same questions when I first began that endeavor as well. I got quite good at grading and buying at very good prices, and only because I knew what a "good" price for a certain coin in a certain condition ought to sell for, and so always bid and bought for less or let the specimen go. That's all I'm trying to do here. You Mentioned Jimmy Olsen and Lois Lane. Over at the buy part of this site, some member said he was cleaning out his collection and was selling a lot if not all his Jimmy Olsens. And I was looking at what he was asking as well as what many of his books already sold for, and they are mostly 25% to about 50% below the Overstreet value. As I said, I'm only trying to learn and only trying to be as close to FMV as I can be, nothing more, and so perhaps your 25% of Overstreet is a little overkill and maybe 50% is closer. And as to the part when you said that perhaps these books were bought by one buyer and so maybe $8 shipping wasn't what was actually spent. Perhaps, but you don't know and neither do I, and again that's why I'm trying to figure this all out. I do the same. Only yesterday I bought 45 books from one seller, and my shipping amounted to 33cents a book. I get that, but that was what I did, what others may or may not have done is no more than speculation.

No, don't think I was "tilting at nor chasing after windmills", as a matter of fact I thought I had explained that I understood that the idea of any single price not being a be all see all end all value in my original post. Apparently I didn't explain it very well. By me using four different value guides, adding them together, dividing the total and then taking the average, I thought showed I understood the concept of no single price or value explaining true worth. Remember my question was, of the four price guides were Comicbookrealm and Overstreet to high and skewing the average. Now with your 25% of Overstreet estimate, you have taken it to another level entirely and made most DC low to mid range books nearly worthless. I went back and looked in detail in order to estimate the grade of each of those three Adventure Comics I pictured in my last comment, and all three look to be 3.0 to 5.0 grades, and Overstreet has those books at around $8 to $14 for those grades, which is about what the buyers paid for them, their all in cost including shipping. So if I understand the concept correctly, the value of an item is what people are willing to pay ..... what it sells at not what somebody asks for an item. So if buyers are willing to pay $12 to receive a comic in the mail, then the value of that comic is about $12 whether they paid $1 for the comic and $11 shipping, or they paid $12 for the comic with free shipping. And of course that needs to be more than one sale, an average or median over many sales. At least that's how I see it. So perhaps the real value is the total paid including shipping, and that seems closer to my average value in my database than your 25% of Overstreet. Actually your 25% of the Overstreet guide seem a tad low. Granted, I'm still fairly new to the hobby, but I don't know of any places selling 55 year old silver age DC's for $2 or $3, and please correct me if I'm wrong, I may be old in years but I'm new to this hobby, and I haven't gone to or been in any brick and mortar comic book shops in my entire life, and every thing I think I know is what I have seen from the vantage point of my Youtube connection and my keyboard, window to the internet.

The trouble I find with using eBay sold listings on lower price books is the shipping. On a more expensive book where you might be paying $30, $50, $100 or more, then a shipping charge of $5 to $10, though it certainly adds to your overall cost, it still might only be 10% to 20%, and the more expensive the book, the less shipping becomes a major cost. But when your paying a small amount for a book, say $3 to $10, then a $6 to $10 shipping cost is ridiculous to say the least, and when I figure my all in cost of a book, and therefore try and establish a value, it's difficult determining a true value from eBay sold listings. So then are the eBay sold listings a true indication of a books value with or without the shipping, because if sold listings are supposed to represent what buyers are willing to pay and therefore the actual "market" value, would it be the same without shipping or more or less? The picture of three eBay listings that just sold last week are prime examples of what I mean. What is the value of the first book, $3 or $11, the second $5 or $13 or somewhere in between? That's the problem with sold listings on relatively inexpensive books.

Those are good points, but establishing value at the time I buy them is more important to me than if I have all my values correct as time goes by. Comics if bought correctly and at low prices initially, should mostly go up. If I was buying moderately expensive or even very expensive key comics, I would be more concerned with all my numbers being accurate some time down the road, but at my prices, I'm more concerned with what I spent on a book today and did I get it at a bargain price or not.