Tony S

Actually Kirby's original idea for the story was drastically altered by Stan Lee. Kirby intended the scientists of the "Beehive" to be good guys! That is an interesting bit of comic book trivia. Thanks for sharing!

+1

Except for your very first sentence, I don't disagree with anything you say above. I do see Thor 165 as Warlock's first full appearance. The last page of FF 67 is all we see of Warlock in that issue. But otherwise I agree with everything else you say. As I said, it's a hard issue to nail down as far as decriptions. How many other characters have their full origin - heck even as you say the entire story much about them - that goes along with a cameo first appearance? While the story in FF 67 most would agree is deeper and more complex, the cover on Thor 165 is simply gorgeous. The cover to FF 67 seems "busy". If one is concerned about which book is the "true" first appearance, I suggest owning both....

It is indeed a Hulk 180 / 181 situation. Him - later called Warlock - only appears in the last page of FF 67. While in his cocoon he appears in several other pages - including one full page splash I think on page 10 of the story. But you don't see "HIM" - only the cocoon. It is indeed his origin. So it's an odd one to categorize perfectly. Thor 165 is most certainly "Him" or Warlocks first full appearance. He's on the cover (a great cover at that - far more dramatic than FF 67) and appears throughout the story. The all black cover makes it far harder to find in high grade Adding even further to the discussion - the very last panel of FF 66 closes with the "Coming of Him". So sort of like a "first mention" like the Mary Jane Watson character. I don't think I have the energy for a debate on FF12 vs FF25 as to which is the first Hulk/Thing battle. No side is wrong here. It's a matter of what you define a battle. I think Overstreet and CGC were noting that the fight between the Thing and Hulk was an epic fight - a battle - in issue 25. Certainly a fight took place between Hulk and Thing in FF12 - as well as a fight with the rest of the FF and the Hulk. You want to call it a battle? OK. FF12 has so much going for it - is worth so much more money than 25. Why deny FF 25 has something special going on too? I think of it this way. Two guys pounding away at each other in a parking lot altercation is a fight. The third and final boxing match between Muhammad Ali and Joe Frazier - "The Thrilla in Manila" - is a battle. That's all the distinction means in the OPG. Yes, they fought in FF 12. In FF 25 they went toe to toe, one on one, for nearly the entire book. The first of many great "Hulk vs xxx"

I have no idea. Matt was already pretty good at reverse engineering CGC's grading model (as many people are who handle a lot of books). I'm assuming they might learn more about the system. I'm more curious as to why a thread stops dead when I post in it. Reading this stuff gets to be a bit much. Okay, conflict of interest... Heritage/ Jim Halperin ever have troubles involving collectibles-grading shenanigans? The answer's not hard to find:.FTC and Forbes article Is he an investor in a comic book grading company? Apparently. Who was used for the Heritage/Parrino 2002 Nic Cage auction? google books link When PCS was nixed, who stepped in as CGC's marketing partner, filling the void? Scoop What became of CGC's head grader? Senior Consignment Director at Heritage And who's moving to Sarasota? Wall Street Journal Individually every news article and press release can be spun away. But it takes some serious mental-gymnastics not to see a potential conflict of interest when they're taken as a whole. Fantastic post! +1. Lots of interesting info linked in one spot. Thanks!

'Cuz it's boring. Oh my heavens are you right. (thumbs u For me it's only been boring in a few places where individuals should have PM'd their insults to one another and spared the rest of us. And considering 60+ pages, even that hasn't happened often. Otherwise, I found the discussion interesting and informative. My opinion in reading all posted up here has even shifted some. If one accepts as the truth that the graders and restoration checkers do not know whose books they are looking at - including if they came from the "pressing division", then the inherent conflict of interest is not an issue. If we don't accept that as the truth, we should be just as concerned about Heritage selling CGC graded comics. There is at a minimum a hint of impropriety. One could argue that it would be best to avoid such. But it wouldn't be good business for CGC from a $$$ standpoint. Because if you are inclined to get your books cleaned and pressed before sending them to CGC, this service should be convenient. I suppose we'll find out in time the pricing structure. I'm inclined to think this move will bring with it more overhead. If it does - and since submitters could save some money on postage - they may well try to bump the prices up some. A good portion of this thread just rehashes the pressing Vs not pressing debate. Which has been discussed countless times before. At some point one just has to accept your opinion is on the losing side. I don't think the Silver Age starts with Showcase 4. Occaionally it makes an interesting discussion. But I lost that debate long ago. Ultimately, I wish CGC hadn't brought pressing services in house, but after reading all that has been discussed it doesn't seem the "big deal" it seemed at first.

I think it is more accurate to say that CGC is more lenient on defects that are sometimes occur in the printing/production process. As you note, everyone knows that staples sometimes get indented during the production process. Since CGC is definitely more lenient on production defects - and since an indented staple looks the same from both production and from pressing.... well, there you have the reason. As for overhangs getting creased. Comics with cover overhangs shouldn't be viewed as good pressing candidates. Even when you first spot press (or tack) a specific problem area you still have to press the entire book to have it look right. If the book has a noticeable cover overhang, that overhang is probably going to at least indent some and maybe crease. Pressing services should advise of the risk - which it sounds in your case they did not. Now that you know, don't send books with cover overhang for pressing. Unless the overall appearance improvement more than offsets any loss from the overhang being dented or creased. Worth keeping in mind is that CGC won't encapsulate books with a large cover overhang due to the potential for damaging the book. It's the same thing.

CGC will not own the company. They will be sister companies. It is CCG that is buying Matt's company. Classics only works on comics, unless they spread out to coins and cards, the issue is only relevant with CGC items...so the relationship is there, between the two parts of the umbrella company. So why has there never been a problem with CCG owning both NGC and NCS? How's the health of that market fared? In my opinion, it is a necessary evil. One that is accepted and used. Think of it this way, if you have a wondeful coin collection and your house burns down, I guarantee you will call NCS. Any collector would. If you discover a 'rare' coin covered in 'grime' and horribly toned, you can use the services of NCS. It is accepted in the marketplace. 'mint' What about currency pressing? Has that too become acceptable? It absolutely is not acceptable, but it's out there. I suppose on the rarest of notes, you take what you can get, pressed or unpressed. In that case, it probably won't be too big of an issue. However, the pressing of paper money is much easier to identify as the ink on notes is embossed, so there is a raised print feeling to an unpressed note. For unpressed notes, they are marked as EPQ (exceptional paper quality). Most collectors that I have encountered ask me if my notes have been pressed. The answer is no, as I've never pressed a note. They usually go on to tell me that they will not buy pressed notes and are only looking for notes with EPQ. It's a toss up from a dealer's standpoint. Press the note and perhaps get a higher grade and lose the EPQ, or don't press it and have a lower grade and keep the EPQ. The question that would need to be asked is, "How much would the pressing raise the note's grade?". Anyway, that's my I don't collect currency (at least not like saving it. I "collect" all I can get then spend it.) But this was an interesting read. Thanks!

No offense, but you haven't been here long enough to remember Steve Borock, while president of CGC, posting on the boards that CGC does not consider pressing to be resto. It's also listed on their website here: http://www.cgccomics.com/resources/restoration.asp The pertinent quote: Non-additive processes such as dry cleaning (non-aqueous removal of dirt, soot, or other non-original surface material), pressing (removal or reduction of bends and creases), and tape removal, are not considered restoration by CGC

I doubt it will have an adverse affect on other pressing services. It will increase the overall awareness of pressing and what it can do. A substantial portion of books pressed are returned to customers, not sent to CGC. While CGC's own pressing service will no doubt get a substantial percentage of the pressed books that come in their door, they won't get it all. And they are likely going to grow interest and awareness in pressing. Creating opportunities for those other pressing services.

I am certain that CGC will NOT refuse to take books that have been pressed by other companies. For one thing it's too hard to tell if a book has been pressed - especially on high grade books pressed correctly. More than likely CGC only seeks to make it very convienient to have them press and grade the books at one shot. Substantial savings on shipping costs if nothing else.

CGC won't be pressing anything. It'll still be Matt's separate company. The same way NGC won't conserve your coins. But their sister company NCS will. they acquired his co, how is that separate? I'm not of the opinion this is a wise move - but trying to be fair it would be possible to have them be separate divisions. And if the graders and resto checker do not know the books came from the pressing division, then they would not get preferential treatment. Problem is they have to sell that concept. How do we (the customers) know the graders and the pressers don't have lunch together? Or sit in the same meetings. Or even have a common manager? I work for a goverment agency. There are Administrative Law Judges that hear appeals. They work for a completely different agency, their managers report to people outside the "chain of command" I work for. And they are instructed not to get to chummy with staff in the office. So maybe it could be done that way.

Dr. Balls summed it up neatly on the first page. If Matt and his employees that do the pressing actually work for the company that does the grading - how often will the pressing "pre or proscreen" be wrong? How often will restoration slip by the pressing staff? Even if CGC maintains they keep it separate - like say the graders don't know the books came from the pressing division of the company - it still raises the appearance of impropriety, One can almost imagine the conversations: "Holy ! The pressing division estimated 7.5 unrestored on this Avengers 4 and the graders gave it 6.5 with a micro trim on the top edge. We have a problem - call the head grader and see what can be worked out!" Also makes me wonder - as others have - about the discounts. Now that Classics Incorporated is just a division of CGC is the 20% submission discount going to still be offered? I would guess it probably would. CGC now wants customers to submitt books for pressing. Offering a discount on grading would encourage customers to try the pressing service. It seems like an ugly marriage. Oh well....

I think most of the DC SA keys are undervalued compared to the Marvel keys. Most of them are also scarcer - especially in high grade. So regardless of the success of a JLA movie, I believe it's wise to look at aquiring a Brave and Bold 28

+1. The best advice is nearly always simple

I looked for someone to quote on this post but I have too many issues to (quickly) cover. I've read no one's post here that seems to be hoping for the day WD back issues crash. What I've read is people post that WD back issues are going to crash and some speculation when. My reference to early Valiants wasn't to suggest the subject matter was the same. My reference is there was a belief amoungst many collectors for a couple of years in the early 90's that pre unity Valiants would just continue to go up in value forever. Because Valiant would just keep attracting new readers that would become collectors and seek out those back issues. That is fundementally why people are sayinjg WD will defy the odds and be eternally valuable. Keep in mind that in 1992-1993 there was no CGC. Harbinger 1 & 4, Solar 10, Magnus 12. These books sold for $150-$200 in raw NM at their highs. Had there been a CGC to certify ultra high grade (9.8) these books mentioned would have easily been going for over a grand too. People are going to eventually get tired of a show about zombies. More people are eventually going to want to sell these books to finance other things than there will be people that want to buy them. At least at the prices we speak of. While the prices are still moving up, now is the time to sell. Or buy to resell. When the prices drop - and drop they will - then will be the time to buy to keep.

I don't know if collectors in general want to see the books drop in price. I think a lot of collectors suspect, believe it likely or even know in their hearts that the books are eventually going to drop in price. And so some, who care, speculate on when that day might be. I, personally, would not buy the books - particularly early and variant issues - at today's prices and think in terms of holding it for the long term (think a decade). Now is the time to buy and sell. The early Valiant's all had great stories, excellent art and low print runs. It was smart to buy and sell while they were hot - and buy to keep once they cooled down.

There have been two or three major shows since then (Chicago, Ohio and Baltimore come to mind) so you've lost another 4-6 days. Still slow. but very close to advertised times.

My economy fast tracks graded by day 20. Actually day 18 subtracting the days for shows. But then took almost two weeks to ship out. 9/11 was the ship date, so this is pretty current information.

My opinion is that the Black and White Savage Sword mags are the better Conan comics. We are talking Conan here. Freed from the Comic Code, the mags had the ability to show a bit more female flesh and the violence was more graphic. The magazine also allowed for higher page counts to a story, giving the writer and artist more to room work to with. And a LOT of great artists worked on the Conan magazines. With the comic you had the first 24 issues by Smith and then save for one Adams issue, it was Buscema for a very long time. Big John was a talented artist for sure. And if you want to see him at his best, look at his work in the first 30 or so issues of Savage Sword. But the magazine reads like a whose who of artists. Adams, Smith, Buscema, Krenkel, Brunner, Kane,Chaykin, Severin, Kaluta geez the list goes on and on. Then all the great painted covers. Jusko of course. But then also Adams, Norem Larkins - I think even Corben did a cover. I think the entire Marvel bullpen must have asked for chance to work on the title. I haven't even mentioned how great the stories are. I still remember in vidid detail "A Witch Shall Be Born" and it's crucifixcion cover in issue #5 Last they are overlooked and freaking cheap right now. Selling for way under guide.

Dell didn't knuckle under and submitt their books for Comic Code approval and their few horror books were actually pushing the limits... Dell basically produced exclusively wholesome books throughout the pre-code era, and positioned themselves in the marketplace as purveyors of decency and approvability in their line - which is why they escaped being reined in by the code, as they were considered exempt. So their brief tenure publishing horror books in the early ' 60s was somewhat of an anomaly. I'm not exactly disagreeing, but the way you have stated it isn't entirely accurate. The Comics Code Authority was a voluntary self censorship body. The CCA was established in October 1954 as a reaction to the US Senate investagion of the comic book industry and their stories for contributing to juvenile delinquency. There was widespread public concern over the content of comics and their appropriateness for children around this time. Several communities had already banned crime and horror comics and many more communities had organized comic book burning drives. Concerned about potential goverment intervention and regulation, comic book publishers formed the Comics Magazine Association of America. A self policing "code of ethics" was established. Publishers voluntarily submitted their comic books for review and approval to display the CCA seal. The CCA seal itself was meant as sign, an assurance that the comic was "safe" for juveniles. Dell was not "considered exempt". Rather Dell believed that their reputation for producing only family friendly books was good enough they didn't need to display the CCA seal for their books to sell.

There are too many good choices. I have to specifically agree with several already mentioned. ASM 42 (love that last page with MJ)Swamp Thing Ann 2, the entire Miller run of DD but if you have to pick one than 181. Not mentioned: The Green Lantern / Green Arrow run by Adams & O'Neil stand the test of time. Hard to pick the "best" of the run between 76, 85 & 86 ASM 248 - the back up story "The Kid who Collects Spider-Man" No one has mentioned the classic Carl Barks stories yet either (I don't think anyway).I'm doing these from memory so don't remember the actual issue numbers. I could and have read "Christmas on Bear Mountain, "Only a Poor Old Man", "the Ghost of the Grotto", "Omlet" and the "Olympic Torch Bearer" and countless others over and over again.

Dell didn't knuckle under and submitt their books for Comic Code approval and their few horror books were actually pushing the limits...

Fantastic! Looks better than a 5.0 too! (thumbs u Darn right it does. I realize you can't grade from a picture - and harder still to grade a slabbed book from a picture. But certainly the front cover looks closer to 6.0. Signature nicely placed too.

OK - here are my enteries into the club. And if no one minds too much - I would like to expand it a bit. First my Detective 359. Not up to Bob's standard - but he isn't called High Grade Comics for no reason! Now IMO that the next three appearances of the Barbara Gordon Batgirl are well worth a look at as well. Detective 363. Almost a headlight cover here and she's blindfolded too: May 1967 Next up World's Finest 169. A cute cover with Supergirl as well as Batman and Superman. Sept 1967 I had to "borrow" this image btw. I realized looking about that I don't own a copy of this issue. I'll have to fix that. And my personal favorite. Detective Comics 371. Earns a "classic cover" designation from the OPG and the first appeance of the new Batmobile based on the TV show - Jan 1968 Love these early Batgirl issues. Hope you've enjoyed looking at them