Phill the Governor

This.

There's a 95% chance there's some color touch, at least at the spine. Other than that I'd peg at a 3.0/3.5.

How are we sliding backwards? The delineation between Conso and Resto is a needed and desirable thing. What isn't desirable is inconsistencies in grading and standards which 100% of the blame falls on CGC.

Except that prices do not correlate to their drop in quality control. At least, yet. If CGC doesn't pick their nose out of their pockets they're going to have a nice call from the Federal Trade Commission for misrepresenting books.

I would say 4.5. Also, wearing gloves to handle books is a common misconception. You are far more likely to cause accidental damage to a comic wearing gloves. As long as your hands are washed it shouldn't be an issue.

Clearly, in the age of the internet, some think that provenance isn't as easy to find as it is. What if the prior grade wasn't called out? Why is it that people here have to do detective work on books like this ? So we're just suppose to say "oh, okay, you messed up the grade the first time, we'll believe you this time around!" Are there any other books out there that CGC said were cleaned that weren't? How about books that CGC said weren't cleaned that were cleaned? Sounds like the short answer is yes to both. Very alarming.

Holy cow! I wasn't optimistic that re-glossing could be removed without cleaning the cover. But the cover on the Tec was already cleaned?? So a book with a cleaned and re-glossed cover had the re-glossing & cleaning removed??? I don't think there's a realistic answer to how that can happen that doesn't involve CGC incorrectly grading the book.

I'm intrigued about re-glossing being removed.. Have a link to that thread?

Save yourself the headache and buy the book, and others, already graded. If you have one raw, sell it as is and put the $ towards the graded copy. There are seasoned collectors who find it difficult to have books come back their expected grade. As a newb, there's a high degree of likelihood you will be dissatisfied with everything from the turn around time, to the expected grade. Probably not the answer you are looking for, but IMO this is the best route.

Just wanted to be clear, looking back at the scans. That whole top right corner of the cover is gone. The first page at the top is black, so it may go overlooked upon first glance. Appreciate all the comments! I was in the 2.5 camp myself.

Hey everyone, A little unfamiliar with magazines vs comics. Have this copy of Famous Monsters of Filmland #4. Small 2" cumulative spine split, mostly at bottom staple. Bottom staple detached at cover and centerfold. Small pen writing on bottom of inside front cover. Corner chips on front cover. Other than that pretty straightforward. Page quality is cream/off-white.

Yup. Could be a good marriage candidate.

I'm sorry that you see a discussion with talking points as a big argument. You don't have to be an industry expert to investigate a situation and pursue empirical evidence. In response to this very perspective, Jobst did release the second video- the one where he brought on a lawyer (Alina Mazeika) to see if his claims held water. From the 30 min to 45 min mark Mazeika goes through three examples to see if, according to the FTC, the actions can be deemed unlawful. So, to point at specific examples like you asked.. here you go: According to the lawyer: Heritage, Wata and it's owners seem to have broke some FTC regulations. If they [Heritage and Wata] actually thought the information put forward by Jobst is defamatory, then where is the lawsuit? If Karl is lying then it should be incredibly easy to prove a financial loss from his video, right? Seems like an easy win... unless the statements he made were not defamatory. I've already made my stance on continuing to bid at Heritage, and other auction houses, quite clear. I already did, did you watch any of it? The full interview completely disproves your argument because everything Karl said at that point of the video you posted was taken out of context and manipulated. You don't seem to be understanding this critical point: This manipulation of what he said is objectively factual, it happened - it's not my opinion. No need for patronizing comments.

I'm not sure what decision it is I have to make and move on about? I never said I'd stop bidding at Heritage or elsewhere... deciding not to contribute to the discussion? Remember, I was responding to your video of "another perspective"... I noticed you edited your previous post with that video, adding: "(specifically around 16 min in where Karl specifically states he has changed his perspective and was quite wrong)". I addressed that in my response to you.. but maybe you didn't read it since you added that blurb in afterwards. Or maybe you’re trolling me? You do know that everything at the 16min mark that Jobst says is taken out of context, spliced up, and put in a different order to make it sound like something different... right? No conspiracy here, the entire unedited video that Mad Dog took clips from is right here: Yeesh, talk about manipulation! Mad Dog edited the clips of Jobst saying what you're referring to purposefully manipulate the video and trick the viewer into believing Jobst said something he didn't. Which is unbelievably deceptive. The claim that Jobst specifically states he has changed his perspective and was quite wrong infers that he now believes his allegations against Heritage and Wata were wrong to make, which is not at all what he was saying. He was referring to being wrong about underestimating the extent of the video game collecting community, but "Mad Dog Collection Man" took his words out of context to suit his narrative. This is like a crash course in deceptive fake news, 101.

The only thing I am passionate about is the truth. I do not view this as a conspiracy; I have seen high up manipulation, with my own eyes, so my perspective of knowing that it goes on shapes how I look at this. I can understand how that video you posted could be viewed as a different perspective, but since it fails to provide any compelling argument refuting any of the critical information, I personally see it as a salty collector posting a video because he is in denial that there could possibly be any manipulation in the hobby. As I've said elsewhere (and it's not news) clearly not all items in all auctions are shilled and faked. But the evidence against Heritage and Wata with Jim at the middle is damning. And I appreciate the suggestion, but as I had just said, savvy collectors will still buy anywhere there is something they like, and simply not pay more than they are comfortable doing. Since I consider myself a (somewhat) savvy collector, and I love comic books and comic art, I will continue using Heritage as I always have.

I don't think I'm alone in saying that the creator of this video has an obvious bias, and all his claims refuting the Karl Jobst video lack substance. Some claims he makes: Since Jobst seeks to gain from monetizing his videos, somehow it completely de-values any impartial evidence shown in the video.. although it's not expressed how. Can't the people that run these companies be collectors too? Which would be great, but he does absolutely nothing to explain.... The vast conflict of interest with Heritage and Wata and associated people. His argument and evidence is "He doesn't know what he's talking about. Wata is a great company". A video where he is interviewed by video game collectors, but only shows cut down clips (all out of context) to purposefully misconstrue the what he said and make it sound like he publicly denounced all the content of his video (which he did not do). Underestimating the collecting community in no way prevents owners of auction houses from manipulating their auctions. There is no correlation. The audacity of this guy to say what Jobst did wasn't journalism is striking, especially since he provides no evidence at all to refute the claims. Saying "there is more of a collecting community than he thought", or "look at these prices of games starting to go up a few years ago, the collector market is real, I know I was there!" is not evidence that prices were not being manipulated. The way he cut up the video of Jobst talking, though, really sealed the deal for me. That's the type of stuff the legacy media does when they want to try and control a narrative. It lacks ethics, calls into question the rest of his video, and leads me to believe he's in denial of the existence of a manipulated market because he's so invested in it. But , and this is my point, as a collector of various things myself, this leads to, aside from knowing this goes on, the reason I don't really care: I am a collector of comic books and comic book art. And despite any manipulation of the market, I will always buy and collect what I like and can afford. I know there are others like me, and we make up a collecting "community" and prices increase over time as demand and supply go back and forth, understandably. But a large, complicated part of the reason the manipulation works with the system is because anyone who ever got taken for a ride, and overpaid by being underbid by the house, won- or will very likely win in the future by just holding the thing they bought. So should they be mad they got taken for a ride? Many people won't bid at any one of the big auction houses because they won too many things for JUST under their high bid. Many people can see through the lines. Savvy collectors will still buy anywhere there is something they like, and simply not pay more than they are comfortable doing. The only control we have is how much money we are willing to, and can bid with.

Just wanted to follow up on this. After talking to a ...higher up at the company, my business account (PhantomRestoration) has been unblocked by CGC. I did not ask, simply relayed what happened. Glad to have the right thing pan out.

Depending on your perspective, sure. Perhaps with the advent of proper conservation on comics there should be a delineation between a "franken book" with married parts, amateur color touch, non-leafcasted pieces, tape, glue, etc.. and a "franken book" that was professionally conserved and happens to have married parts. They are two separate things. One is done with the intention to deceive it's actual state, and the other is done to preserve what is there. And if the latter included using unrestored original parts, why not? As long as it's disclosed on the label there shouldn't be an issue. More importantly, the price always reflects this in comparison to a complete all original copy- even one that's had work done.

I did the work on this book. As far as I can tell, the reason married pieces falls under the Conserved label is because they are original pages/pieces. The important part is there are printing variables that experts can use to determine the piece is not original to the particular copy. If added using archival means, the piece is being used to make the book whole again. The big, bold letters on the label notes should be sufficient for letting anyone know the provenance of the marriage. You don't have to understand why CGC decided to make this call (I don't totally understand it) but the label alone discloses the work done. Nothing is being hidden and all the work is archival, reversible, and the piece married is original. The "pieces added" on this particular book were done using archival mending tissues & only at the spine for structural support. Today, CGC has changed their stance where any piece can be added to the cover, but it has to be leafcasted, otherwise they deem it Restoration. This is the part that I do not understand. However, it's my job to try and adapt techniques. And Leafcasting is a very cool, reversible technique used in conservation labs all over the world. So Leafcasting has become a far more common thing done to conserve comics. From what I can tell, it's a little weird to say the book is "partially conserved" all because of the foxing, especially since you do not know what it looked like prior to just posting a photo of it in a slab. You should have seen the amount of tape on the front cover that was removed.

Talk about a thread that will need to be updated!

Exactly. The insidious thing about the shill bidding (that is NOT exclusive to video games. Illogical for anyone to think that they would do this on one thing but not another) is that it can be very, very difficult to know what has been shilled past a reasonable point. There is a very good chance that at least one or some bids on all/most of the items through their bidding activity are shilled. No one cares about those shill bids. The ones made to simply to keep the engine going on that listing while it's under FMV. It's not to say that every single item is underbid by the house either. I've seen many legitimate sales happen where there is a bidding war between two real collectors. But when, for example, you have a piece (at 28k FMV) where some dummy puts in an early bid at say 40k , and then it magically goes for 38-39k, that is NOT a coincidence. The combination of real collectors with FOMO, people running the auction houses who are also collectors, etc.. really muddies the waters for what sales are real and which are beefed up and manipulated. As long as you don't go over your threshold for the price you're willing to pay you're good. Just remember the cardinal rule of auctions: NEVER put in an early bid. The house sees it and they WILL underbid you up to as much as they can get away with. And even if they "accidentally" win or purposefully win an item for a new record price, no sweat! They will sit on that thing, and it will pop up for sale again sometime in the next few months to a year or two- and this time likely at an even higher price. In fact, chances are it will conveniently be over the year mark, because of the difference they pay on taxes for income tax vs. capital gains is less.

I have two stories (among many others) that sum up the problems with the people running the auction houses in this industry. And for those that think these types of people can separate themselves as a business owner and a collector, you should think again. I do not feel comfortable disclosing these stories publicly, but if you've met me in person and know my history of working in the industry, you would understand why I am so cynical seeing prices where they are at. As a collector, the market is exciting but ultimately outrageous knowing the type of behavior that goes on and how there should be consequences. Perhaps far too idealist. Remember, it's not that prices have gone up, this hobby had enough people where it would happen organically anyways. It's where prices have gone up to because of manipulation. To quote the late, great George Carlin: You know that big, bull***t businessman smile? And if you're a customer - Whoah! - that's when you get the really big smile. Customer always gets that really big smile, as the businessman carefully positions himself directly behind the customer, and unzips his pants, and proceeds to service...the...account. I have seen this with my own eyes just before new... "record sales" are made.

Jim's OA collection, with a highlight on his EC published art alone, is incredible. I understand there is a difference in this particular example. But ultimately art is different only in what it is, not how it's sold or collected. While one of a kind, art still has a relative FMV against other like-examples. Having to pay more for the things you collect is a small price to pay (literally) against how much other money is being made, in various ways, by the market consistently rising.

For anyone who simply glossed over my comment: Here's an article from 1989 about fraud in the graded coins industry. Implicated were a few individuals, including Jim Halperin: https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1989-08-10-vw-88-story.html If you go to Jim's wikipedia page, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_L._Halperin, the literal last line at the top of his bio is: "...He and his businesses have been sued by federal agencies (including the FTC) multiple times for fraud, among other allegations, where he was ordered to pay substantial fees." Now, If you haven't already, go back and watch and listen to this piece of investigative journalism about fraud in the graded video game market (and the followup video) which implicates (amongst others) Jim Halperin... again. This is a very well argued piece of journalism in my view, and I'd love to hear differing opinions. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvLFEh7V18A&t=1s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKbuNwS-gaI So you have (one guy) with a history of market manipulation, and new evidence showing he's clearly attempting to manipulate another market. One would be incredibly gullible and naive to assume this hasn't/isn't still happening in the comic book/ original comic art collecting world. Jim just happens to co-chairman of Heritage Auctions. Do you think the other auction houses, who also have their own databases and can see client bids, don't also take advantage of manipulating prices when it benefits their bottom line? This is not a conspiracy, the proof is mountains high. I've seen some of it with my own eyes and understand why many people will not even bid at any of the big auction houses. The auction houses have taken organic increases in prices and growth and compressed it into far less time because they want more money. While increases in prices are bound to happen, the unprecedented increase in many prices has been primarily influenced by manipulation. True collector's setting new prices for things are outliers by and large, and in most cases (not all, for sure) are done by people with virtually unlimited funds. People trading up pieces for one big one isn't a reason for prices climbing, if anything it's a symptom of prices climbing to unreasonable levels and it's the only way collectors can adapt to get things they otherwise are priced out of. Gene is definitely also correct about FOMO. That is certainly a driving force nowadays, despite the manipulation.

There is an unfortunate reality of price manipulation working with actual collectors bidding, and new collectors/investors coming into the hobby. Often, all it takes is one insanely rich buyer (insert someone like Ayman Harari or Eric Roberts for example) putting in an early bid at an auction house, and then that bid gets underbid by the house and a new "record price" for the item has been set. But then when you consider other collectors/investors have the same book in grade/ or comparable piece of art, and now they want that much for their book/art too. Then someone who can afford it buys it, and that inflated/shilled price becomes reality because now there is a real amount of people who view the new set of prices as legitimate. This is how the cycle of prices keeps moving around to, virtually everything through time. And the auction houses can regulate it as much as they want/ can get away with. Take a look at this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvLFEh7V18A&t=1s Then follow up with this video that was in response to Wata & Heritage claiming the allegations made were unwarranted: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKbuNwS-gaI Not only is the above information obviously worrisome, it is at the very least morally unethical, and at worst completely illegal. This is virtually the same type of scam being run in comics and comic art, by all the big auction houses (the big 3 at the very least) over the last several decades. The part of the scam that works so well is that there are tons of real collectors and investors. They simply don't have the means to dictate prices in the same way the auction houses do since they can underbid virtually every item they sell. Even if you're accounting for people shilling friends auctions (or their own) to set new GPA records, it pales in comparison to what the auction houses are doing. So the lie becomes real and everyone just keeps collecting what they afford and write off the insanely high prices as "new money" or "prices just increasing". Which may be true to an extent, but it doesn't negate the shill bidding and manipulation that is and continues to happen.