fantastic_four

That's a VERY vague description of what Denzel did that could range from he paid for a plane ticket all the way up to Denzel paid for years of Oxford tuition, room, and board. Without more details I've got to assume he just paid for a short trip to visit the university for some unspecified reason.

I thought Kilmongers intentions were somewhat (loosely) addressed when Ross commented that Kilmongers CIA training focused on infiltrating regimes and destabilizing power structures. Wasn't that his response to the reason that Killmonger burned all the vibranium lillies that give the Black Panther his powers? I remember that line, but I don't remember the context now and I'm still not sure how it indicates what his ultimate goal would be.

Box Office Mojo claims the film only made $3.5 million over its first week and a half in South Africa, and it doesn't list revenue from any other African nations (for this film or any other), implying that the African continent doesn't know who Black Panther is and doesn't much care. Do we just not have a view of African cinema, or is it barely a thing? I lean towards it existing but we just have no view of it because I've heard in the past that Egypt has a booming film industry and theater crowd relative to most other Middle Eastern and African nations yet I've never seen box office revenue for them. On a related note, anyone know who the most famous African mythical heroes are past or present? I'm thinking here of African equivalents to Odysseus, or Lancelot, or Beowulf, or Luke Skywalker.

Come to think of it I know I saw one or two this past Halloween, forgot about that. In retrospect I'm somewhat surprised they were available so long before the film's release, but I guess his appearance in Civil War put it on the Disney marketing map last year.

While I admire your idealism and hope there's a far-off day akin to Gene Roddenberry's vision of humanity in Star Trek where we don't draw tribal lines, that's not how human beings work circa 2018. Or are likely to even circa 2500. Roddenberry thought there might've been a chance by the 23rd century. We'll just have to wait... He had Zefram Cochrane achieving light speed and first contact with Vulcans by 2063, so we've got a LOT of work to do in not much time to keep up with his timeline. It's safe to say he was overly-optimistic with his timeframe and at minimum underestimated how long things might take by at least a few centuries.

That's brutal. I mean, if she knows you like comics, I would hope she would have the presence of mind to go watch it with you sooner so as to avoid spoilers, reviews, hype. Especially after the opening weekend. After 3 weeks, pyschologically, the hype must continue to build until it reaches a point where the movie can't possibly meet those lofty expectations. I avoided this thread and queued all the podcasts I had discussing it (Fat Man on Batman and a Slate Spoiler Specials podcast) until I saw it. I didn't find it hard to avoid spoilers, but I do prefer to see things close to their release just to participate in discussion. I didn't see Wonder Woman until the disc release and missed the thread on that entirely as a result, but nothing in it was spoiled for me.

Now that does make sense. And I can see why a portion of the audience could relate to the thinking. Not the evil, dastardly Pinky and the Brain scheme 'I SHALL RULE THE WORLD!' In the moment he declared his intention I was all for it, but then I realized that the period of colonization is now over, so what, exactly, would Africa do with weapons more advanced than all the other countries? I couldn't rule out world domination as his ultimate goal, but from what I could tell they didn't fully explore it enough to be sure.

His line of thinking is that human history has seen Western nations colonizing and subjugating Africa, so he didn't want Wakanda to hide from the world, he wanted to use Wakanda's weapons and technology to arm Africa and turn the table on the colonizers.

Sorry, I wasn't clear--I was confused about Killmonger's ultimate intention, not T'Challa's. Was it just to arm Africa, or was it for Africa to enact retribution on the rest of the world? He was so violent and sociopathic I can't rule out world domination as his goal, but I wasn't at all sure.

I don't think it was a great film, either, in terms of its construction. I'm still debating where it should go in the top 10 or 20 just among superhero films. I know for sure it's nowhere close to Dark Knight, but I may eventually decide it was better than Batman Begins, a film I place third in the genre. Might take me another few viewings to decide and I expect it to land somewhere between 2 and 10, but the social significance within the genre is so huge it gets a lot of credit that override at least some of the film's flaws.

While I admire your idealism and hope there's a far-off day akin to Gene Roddenberry's vision of humanity in Star Trek where we don't draw tribal lines, that's not how human beings work circa 2018. Or are likely to even circa 2500.

That overlooks the universal appeal of the heroic myth, a narrative form that's as old as human civilization itself and is present in art as old as archaeology has been able to find. Whether it's the cave drawings at Lascaux, Greek and Roman myths, the Odyssey or Illiad, Beowulf, the Arthurian legend, American Westerns, Star Wars, or superhero films, tales of heroism have always held an important place in the minds of men and civilization as a whole as an example to aspire to, and as such there's every reason to believe it will endure indefinitely. Black kids don't NEED a black superhero to look up to, and I doubt anything close to a majority find it hard to identify with Peter Parker just because he's white. But the fact that they haven't had ANY major black character to admire is a huge problem, but not anymore. That's why Snipes wanted to make this film himself, and it's why the film has social significance that stands alone in the superhero genre. The only film that even seems similar is Wonder Woman. Tribalism is endemic to the human condition. We can wish it wasn't, but the reality is that it always has been and to a varying extent always will be. Little girls will never identify with Superman like they do Wonder Woman, and you or I will never identify with T'Challa like black kids will. I'm extremely happy they have their hero. I live in a neighborhood that's 85% black, and I can't wait to see all the Black Panther costumes this Halloween.

Only person I know of that's done that is James Holmes, the Aurora "Dark Knight Rises" premiere shooter, so yes, I would think the idea of idolizing Killmonger over Joker isn't even a controversial one.

It was somewhat of an origin story in terms of Martin Luther King's non-violent approach was in that he at first just adopted his the philosophy of all previous Wakandan kings and later changed it to be one of activism like MLK based upon Killmonger and his dad's reasoning that they should be helping out the continent as a whole. I was trying to remember this after the film but couldn't--did they give any specific time frame for how long ago that vibranium meteor fell, or how many kings there were before T'Chaka?

That's why that scene where he challenged T'Challa made my jaw drop. My initial reaction to him was that he's right, Wakanda SHOULD be empowering Africans around the world. It took a few seconds for me to realize "wait, what are you actually going to do here? Arm all African nations, or to take over the world?" I never did become clear on what his end game might have been, did Coogler ever hint at it?

That's the realism in the film's politics I was referring to. What other comic book film has this many people feeling on a visceral level that the villain is right and the hero is wrong? Just as Stan Lee modeled Magneto on Malcolm X and Professor X on Martin Luther King, T'Challa is clearly modeled on King and Killmonger on Malcolm. But while we can understand Magneto's cause and perhaps be sympathetic with it, it's far more difficult to identify with the oppression of a fictional race of mutants than it is the real oppression of Africans throughout history. I can't think of ANY superhero movie that ties in that closely to real pain felt by billions of people.

Slate had a podcast special on the film a few weeks ago, and Aisha Harris said she thought the women in Black Panther were portrayed in an even stronger way than they were in Wonder Woman. I have no opinion on that and didn't understand it. Were the Dora Milaje portrayed in a stronger way than the Amazons were?

Then take Snipes as your first example of a black superhero fan high on Black Panther decades before now. He personally tried to get that film made because he already knew of the character from when he was a kid and knew there was no black character like that known to the general public. Here's an article detailing Snipes and his efforts back in the 90s to get a Black Panther film made. https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/black-panther-wesley-snipes-reveals-untold-story-behind-90s-film-1078868

And now they have. Which superhero do you imagine was a favorite of most black kids who aren't diehard fans like us prior to this? And which one do you think it's now more likely to be? That's the identity politics you're overlooking. But I was wrong to say you're incapable of understanding it, which is why I deleted that from the quote within three minutes of posting it and regret you had to see it. I apologize for that. But I was confused as to how you could just summarily dismiss the strong impact on identity this character has the potential to have. Before this, a black kid's favorite hero was most likely going to be Spider-Man, but now it's far more likely to be T'Challa, benevolent king of the most powerful nation on Earth.

The only way you can make that observation is to have paid no attention to what black superhero fans have been saying about Black Panther as a character for decades, this film immediately prior to release, or the massive response by black fans and celebrities around the world following its release. They weren't waiting for this film to "save them," but the tie of African-American culture to this film is beyond that of any other superhero by an order of magnitude. Wesley Snipes knew that in the 90s, which is why he's repeatedly said the guy he wanted to bring to life and play in film was the Black Panther. Are you comparing Black Panther to films outside of the genre here? That was the scope of my own comparison; I definitely wasn't comparing any form of heroic fiction to Milton, Baldwin, Faulkner, or Shakespeare whether the work in question is Black Panther, Beowulf, or the Illiad. If you meant within the superhero genre, which films are you thinking of here? I've never seen a superhero film more inspirational to any ethnic group than Black Panther is to African-Americans, particularly kids.

I'm not in touch with Japanese culture over the last decade enough to know this for sure, but I'm skeptical the film will do well in those markets because of stories I've heard about rampant racism in Japan. A few black American celebrities have talked about how surprised they were by how much racism they faced when visiting Japan, and I know that as recently as a few years ago there were entire stores in Tokyo devoted to selling the same explicitly racist Sambo goods that were popular in America prior to the mid-20th century. I don't know anything about China's view of Africans, but given that they're an almost entirely heterogeneous ethnic population I'd guess it isn't good. But that's a blind guess and I definitely hope I'm wrong.

Exactly my thoughts! Even though I'm aware of a few black panther tpb (BP essential comes to mind) I'm sure that there are other fans of the movie that are seeking a book instead of a tpb collecting various comics. In their mind this probably seems like a movie based on a self contained story. And to not have a book ready to pick up is a HUGE missed opportunity. Hopefuly they're working on one soon Coogler didn't create the idea of a militant faction of people who want to see Wakanda take over the world, did he? I don't know myself, maybe he did, but usually these ideas are cobbled together from various runs, so I was assuming that the idea came from some run somewhere. I heard a few people say on Kevin Smith's podcast that the best Black Panther run is the one done by Christopher Priest, but I don't know if that's where the idea of a militant Wakanda came from or not.

Yes, this was lost on the white audience (myself included, until pointed out to me). It greatly paralleled the ideological distinction between Malcolm X and Martin Luther King. I loved that Coogler chose for King's vision of peace win out in the end.

The guy had like half an hour of screen time. Good character as far as why he did what he did but I didn't think the acting was anything special, just my opinion. Heath Ledger's Joker was cool half because of Ledger's performance, but what most fans don't think about is that it's equally because of the screenwriting and character design. In the case of Killmonger, the power of his performance is about 3/4 because of the screenwriting. It's easy to identify with Killmonger's motivation both within the fantasy of the film as well as outside of the film in real life given the suspension of belief in a country as powerful as Wakanda, but that's ALL the writing, not Jordan's performance. Jordan's performance just brings that writing to life in an extremely vivid way. He did a fantastic job and I agree with people, he chews up the screen every time he's on it. But while Jordan's conviction really sells the character, it's the writing that's the lion's share of the reason he's such a powerful presence.

My jaw dropped when Killmonger challenged T'Challa for the throne and expressed his purpose to have Wakanda empower all of Africa. For the first time since Heath Ledger made me believe he was an actual lunatic and not a comic-booky villain I suddenly exited a comic book movie and entered a world that seemed like the real one.