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Mmehdy

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Posts posted by Mmehdy

  1. On 8/12/2023 at 3:07 PM, sfcityduck said:

    Mitch:

    Without any judgment as to who's right or wrong, the last thing I want to see is this thread turning into a battle over the recollections and credibility of Bob Beerbohm versus anyone else. I've seen enough of those threads on this site to know that they often devolve into a highly vitriolic food fight. Bob shares his stories on his facebook site which is password protected and not public. There no reason to import Bob's stories over here - especially when Bob may not want them going public, which I assume from the security he has on his FB. If you feel the need to be Bob's gladiator - which Bob doesn't need as he doesn't seem at all shy about saying what he feels needs to be said - please do it somewhere else. 

     

    SF Duck I am shocked that somehow have converted my bringing a second opinion awareness to the boards on a posted statement made by Bud Plant about Bob somehow qualifies me as a Gladiator for him,  or Bud, or Donald Duck or Huey, Louie, and Dewey.

    Let me respond to your above post and correct what needs to be corrected.

    1-If your are a member of facebook anyone can access Bob's two facebook pages. They are unrestricted. Please correct your post above using the edit button.

    2-"Without judgement who is right or wrong"...you cannot made a true and informed judgment without looking at all. the facts, statements, and evidence. I will  NOT shut out the truth because it a inconvenience to you as an unappointed moderator wanting to put your head in the sand and not being aware of different points and provable facts. Everybody's opinion counts and the assertions that Bud made saying it was the biggest mistake of comix and comix was taking Bob on as a partner and the creation of the store itself. Well SF Duck, lets hear the other side. Bud bought it up, put it on a public form to comment on and I do need you to tell to go "somewhere else". because this is where the statements were made...this thead by Bud himself. Of course this shocking response which would unable to put up on the boards due to the current rules would create considerable response and controversy.  I am not Bob's mouthpiece and I resent your implication that I am. I did not even present the highlights of his response, more of a general comment and notice to give a read before a "rush to judgment". If I was bob's gladiator I would posted a LINK to the facebook page post...as you can do it for each post. Bob did go public SF Duck by posting on them  on FB and a half dozen comic book related  facebook  groups and since your post I contacted him and he is fully supportive of people reading his post from the boards.So please edit that too!

    3-SF Duck please stick to being a mediator not a moderator.

     

     

  2. It appears I am not the only one who has responded to Bud's postings about past events.It appears the creation of "the BERKELEY comic art shop (see photo of early flyer) on his facebook post as the store first  originally called then Comix/Comix etc. According to Robert Beerbohm's latest facebook post addressing parts of Bud posting on the creation of the northern calif comic book shop in Berkeley last week of 1972 before world con in Sept 1972. According  his  factual recollection John Barrett had been one of Bob's first collectors in 1965 and were partners in semi comic book stores and deals. Bob  came up with the idea of comic book store near a large university after Bud asked Bob to help with his "John Barrett" as John wanted to escape the Lucky grocery store gig and John wanted a partner in Bud's mail order business. Bud said no way. John Barrett found the actual Berkeley Location. This is what happens, kind of like Stan created the marvel universe....etc It is a very interesting read on facebook and I would highly recommend it. Yes it is very controversial...beware, way to hot for the boards to post up his response. My response to bud seems tame.

    I see one thing that Bud, Bob, and myself agree on. If you look at my Journey of a comic book collector series I posted on the boards, you should see shoutout to John Barrett as "the nicest guy in comics". It was real honor to know him, deal with him....a real gentle soul...he passed away in 2000 way too young. 

     My take is the truth lies somewhere in between... they did a test many years ago, had a guy run in class room and then have the class describe what he did and what did he look like...37 different opinions. I understand how important that store was to the comic book world we have today.But I also know I take everything in and then come to my own conclusion. One last outstanding point was bob's posting of how the direct market came about....I agree with that one that. "the  comic book direct market grew directly from the advent of Print Mint taking Zap Comics into national distribution in summer 1968 and onwards".....fascinating point!!!!

     

  3. On 8/12/2023 at 10:28 AM, Dr. Haydn said:

    A few random thoughts:

    The Wasp disappears after distracting Namor on page 18, reappearing only on page 23. I wonder what Jack had in mind for what she was doing in the interim. (I assume we can rule out Stan's remark that she was "powdering her nose"?)

     

    Whose idea was it to make Rick Jones a Bucky clone? Granted, that's a more interesting use of the character than having him be the Marvel version of Snapper Carr.

     

    Page 19, last panel: Thor calls Namor a "witless mutant"! Was this the first time that anyone suggested such a thing? (That would make him a cross between Sapiens, Mermanus, and Superior!)

     

    Page 18: I love Iron Man's reference to Hugh Boulder! Didn't Marvel have a proofreader by 1964, especially for a landmark issue such as this, billed as a really big deal on the splash page? Part of me is surprised Stan didn't retcon the name as the secret identity of Spragg, the Living Hill.

     

    Still overall a great issue, ,man they dont make them like they used toi...12 cents...what a deal

  4. On 8/12/2023 at 8:27 AM, Robot Man said:

    Come on Mitch. Your claim to fame is that you at one time, overpaid more than anyone for a funny book. Were you smart or visionary to do so? Maybe. But how else have you (or I even) done much to change, influence or push the hobby forward? Hell, you talk the talk and pimp your agenda but I have yet to see you ever post a book it piece of art. Your prerogative and I respect that. But to jump a real innovator and well respected figure in the hobby is just wrong. We need folks like us and Bud here to relate the history of our hobby to the ones who come after us.

    My 2 cents…

    Robo this is not about who did more or who has the biggest…..

    All boards members  here have a right to defend themselves when necessary and  can correct to the record accordingly . I thought we were past these issues  to which Bud has correctly apologized for . In case you failed to read above …we are done and both of us has moved on. Robo…Bud can take care of himself as he has shown above. I welcome him as a positive addition to these boards.

    what exactly is the your purpose in retreading a disagreement which has been settled here satisfactorily to both parties.

    why are you attempting to do what you are criticizing me for. Jumping on me and my “pimp”ed agenda because I corrected Bud ‘s personal attack on my collector life and transactional history in which the record has been set straight. This is contradictory on it’s face.

    Just because you have never invited to my house, my safe deposit box, or the fact that I chose to not show off what I own is a private choice that I have made which comes from very early in my collecting days. I believe you can post on these boards and still have some of your  life and collection private. I appreciate you posting your collection… but that is your choice and I would  assume 90% of this board does not post what they own and describe how they acquired it.

    I don’t know if you are just trying to get some knee jerk reaction from me?

    I do not “jump” on anyone Robo like  a LA gang member  during a takedown robbery. Nor am I waiting in the shadows to mug fellow board members who occasionally cross the line. My response to Bud was out the respect I have for him as an important figure in the birth of the comic collecting world. Because Bud said it… it had to be addressed immediately and firmly  to establish the truth. Simple as that. I thought Buds reply has satisfactorily ended it. Apparently you do not!

    In terms of who did more is not at issue here Robo. When you post … you have the possibility that you are going to get some bounce back…. Sink or swim….Bud decided to swim and I thanked for that.

    I am prepared to move on from the Pimp comment… now the question is are you…if not bring it on.

     

    Your unnecessary attack is exactly that…. Unnecessary!

     


     

     

     

  5. On 8/11/2023 at 2:24 PM, Bud Plant said:

    Wow, Mitch. I apologize for seemingly belittleling your comics career. But I don’t think I needed to get lambasted quite so seriously for itl You’re enough to drive me off the message boards, in my first time posting anything! Two flaming retorts to a couple lines I wrote?

    I remember the whole national media thing over yours and Theo’s (I thought it was mostly Theo) just seemeda little strange and suspicious to us fans in my area. But that’s the opinion of a very young collector, as I was at the time. And I will admit there might be some envy or jealosy on my part, and/or my buddies part, as clearly Theo had a more money than any of us had. 

    I greatly appreciate sfcityduck for coming to my defense. Michelle Nolan told me once “Sorry is not good enough”. Mitch, I hope you don’t have the same attitude and can accept my apology for stirring up a real hornet’s nest with you. Sorry I brought it up.

    I don’t know yours and Theo’s story, I just know that in my fandom experience, pretty much full time since 1970, I wasn’t aware of you or of Theo byond that one big media event. I have interacted with publishers, fair promoters, dealers, and collectors, people I’ve worked with or known of for decades, across the country, not just in the Bay Area. My impression may have been totally wrong, it was just an opinion. Not sure what “book” you are talking about. Unlike Beerbohm, I’m not writing any fandom histories. I was just responding to a statement someone made in this chat room. 

    I hope we can move on to more interesting topics now.

     

    I am glad you decided to swim rather than sink.

    I fully accept your apology, thank you.

     Welcome to the boards!!!! 

  6. On 8/10/2023 at 4:10 PM, sfcityduck said:

    Mitch: I get it. You got roasted when you first showed up.  So did your longtime friend Theo (who sold me an item I greatly value - a comic rack from the Tower Drug that my Mom would have bought comics from as she lived in Land Park). So I get your sensitivity to apparent criticism. But, you are coming in a little forceful here. Might have been more tactfully handled by a PM. Because, after all, Bud did say: "I’ve run into Mitch years later, now that he’s into original art, and he seems like a perfectly nice guy."

    Bud's coming at collecting history from a position where he was (1) a bit older than you, (2) it was his profession from a much earlier time and for a much longer time and in more roles than you, and (3) he has a different view of what constitutes the "early days of collecting" than you. As you know, collecting changed so much over the course of the 60s, that even a few years difference gives folks completely different experiences. Guys like Willits, Brown, and Olson had a different experience than you and Bud. Bud had a different experience than you and his opinions are going to reflect that. You had a much different experience than someone like me who only started collecting five years after you bought your first Action 1. So this is more of a time for discussion not aggression. Ironic probably coming from me because, as a litigator, I often come in too hot myself and get put on time out without realizing. Just want to keep this thread a friendly space.

     

     

    Bud plant is not a expert on Mitchell J Mehdy on what I have done, who I have been with period. Bring it on Bud and we will debate who I am, and how the $1800 Action one purchase was a real purchase lets go,  Me being late to fandom....lets go. I do want to remind you Bud I thought you came into fandom when you looked at RBCC#44 April 1966 and as I recall you were born about 1952 and me Jan 1955  which made me 11 and you 14 and I did visit your original store back in 1968 called Seven Suns   and saw Frank Scadina  and  as well as other trips after you guys split up and each had a store as my parents were supportive about my comic book collecting, as they were avid Coin Collectors for many many years.

    I agree about that you have an extensive early comic book store and convention attendance, OK. I get it...but back up what  you print...about other people...come on Bud Let's GO.

    One other thing SF Duck, first he says I was a fraud and a late comer , then he says I am a "nice guy"....I got for news for you...he  is wrong on everything.

    Thank you SFduck for your concern.

  7. On 8/9/2023 at 8:03 PM, Bud Plant said:

    I think I managed to get onto this thread, we’ll see. Marc at House of Comics introduced me, since I met sfcityduck at the Berkeley Comic Show last weekend, introduced by Steve Duin who had just visited me in Grass Valley last week.

    Wow, I spent the last two evenings doing through this thread about Dave W. Just amazing stuff. And the capper, that Russ Cochran bought his EC collection. The wheel comes around. Nice work sfcity…I guess I don’t use your real name?

    Hey, hello to Leonard Rifas, old friend. It’s been a long time.

    Now, about Barry Bauman, since he came up…Michelle Nolan drove us teen-agers (John Barrett, Jim Buser, maybe MR. Swan) up to see Barry for the first time in early 1966, from San Jose to Oakland. Barry had all his comics in an attic at his folks house. He had a table with the best of the best laid out face up; the one and only book I remember was Action #1, which he wanted $400 for. Of course, as you guys noted, $400 to a kid (I was 14 in ‘66) was a fortune. In fact, fellow San Jose collector, teacher Rudi Franke (Voice of Comicdom, which published some of the earliest Richard Corben work) sold HIS complete EC collection to one of the San Jose boys, Tom Tallmon, for $600 not terribly long after that. Not mint like Dave’s, just good readable copies in say VG to Fine probably at best.

    Again, an impossible amount, but Tom was a little older than I was and had a job. We all bought bits and pieces of it from Tom, since we all collected EC’s along with our particular specialtys: mine was Quality, John’s MLJ, Jim’s DC, Michelle’s Nedor. We always gave her a hard time about Nedors, back when they were considere the Charlton of the 1940s, the bottom of the barrel.

    Anyway, Barry had scored his huge lot of Golden Age from the Liberty Book Store in Sacramento, if I have the name right. There was another long-lived bookstore there, Beer’s Books, but I think it was Liberty. And sadly, yes, he died in a car crash driving his elderly Corvette north on Highway 101, just before or after his 50th birthday. Barry is a story himself; he may have never had a social security card, so he avoided the draft and lived off the grid. He made quite the living quietly bringing grass in from Mexico in those very early days; I think he’s been gone long enough for that to come out. Nuff said. He drove back from one of the Sueling Cons with us around 1971 or 1972, and yes, I don’t know of his collection per se, if he even had one, burning up. That probably was Lucas and/or Ted Dang, who also lived in Oakland. Lucas resurfaced a few years ago, he’d been a bank president. Comics still show up with their stamp on the first page….

    The times we went to see Barry, he was selling comic book bags (which we had not seen before) for .03 cents each, so we’d buy several for our new acquisitions. I was collecting Quality Comics group…not sure what else I bought, but I was buying Blackhawk Quality-era issues for $1 or $2 each. Fortunately, I have journals I kept from 1964 to around 1971, so I have an amazing amount of details about the comics I was acquiring at the time, and events around our opening Seven Sons Comic Shop in 1968, and Comic World in 1969. The journals were gone by the time Comics & Comix started in 1972. John Barrett had been one of the first collectors I met in 1965, and we were partners in both the previous stores. We two came up with the idea for opening C&C on Telegraph Avenue in Berkeley. An, please don’t hold it against me, we took on Bob Beerbohm as a partner when his car blew up on the way back to Nebraska and he decided to join us instead of going back to college. Worst decision we ever made. Bob continues to claim to have started C&C. In a way, that’s true, he was there from nearly the beginning. But it was John and I who came up with the location, the starting money, and the manpower to get it rented and off the ground—no matter what Bob says. I’m persona non grata with Bob like most of the rest of mankind, which suits me fine. On to other topics.

    Let me see if anyone read this…it’s certainly an fun thread, enough to finally get me into these boards…..I’ll check out some of the others you guys recommended when time allows.

    Oh, and Mitch and Theo Holstein…I can’t give much credit to them for anything more than publicity for spending the most money, up until then, on a comic. What I remember is the whole thing may have been made up for the sake of getting the local paper, and the,the national wire services, to pick it up as a story…all so that some more comics might come their way. I’ve run into Mitch years later, now that he’s into original art, and he seems like a perfectly nice guy. But I would not give either gentleman a lot of credence as “early collectors,” as someone earlier in this thread had put out there. They were Johnny-come-latelys in my book, with little involvement in the early days of collecting, fan publishing, and going to comic shows like the rest of us were doing. 

    Bud welcome to the comic boards:

    When I first got hear in May 2011, everyone attacked, challenged and which  gave me a sink or swim mentality and the boards can be rough. Here is your first lesson:

    Please read my "Journey of a comic book collector posting " before you jump to your " all mighty" conclusions about how I conduct business and what type of collector I am.  Bud you have no Idea who I am, or where I have been and what I have done as a true comic book collector. 

    1- The comic book collecting  world does mean the entire collecting universe happened in the bay area or inside your head. Surprise!!  Your attack on my comic book collecting as a "Johnny come lately" shows your true ingorance. If simply had read my already posted thead which indicated the I and victor started the  first Sacramento comic book collectors club in 1966. I understand if it does not happen in the Bay Area it does not count, if you do not know about it ...it does not exist. I not only backed my claim by posing the original flyer which was distributed at Beers books store in Sacramento. 1966 is not "johnny come lately in my books, since I was collector since the age of 5 and buying FF1 off the news stands. The fact of the matter is, when I had my comic book store in Stockton I bought new comics and books from you and I was complimented on the fact that I always made my payments to you on time by your staff during a period of time  in which a number of shops did not. I know as we get older, we forget. You can take your "book" and make a revision in it which says, I know very little or next to nothing about Mitch Mehdy and the Sacramento comic book collecting circle and what he has done or is.

    2-You sounding off like the late Don Thompson who hopped that I "traded for the $1800 purchase of action 1-(see comic buyers guide). Before you make totally 100% false statements ...READ the evidence....or read "journey of a comic book collector" posting which showed the original bank cashiers check to THEO. Let me give you thumb nails summary-Theo bought it from Bruce for $1500 and got cold feet and sold it to me for $1800 and when I bought a much higher grade copy I sold it back to bruce for $2500...and again I included the original sales contract of the third Action one purchase I made on my posting . I just do not make statements to make myself look good or great or historic, I back it up with evidence. FYI I went to Barrys house twice too and was there at the Berkley con when Nick showed me a stack of his timely's including Cap1 form the SF collection which your store missed out on. You have as a vendor to more comic book conventions than I have, but I have done my share including 50+ SDCC's.

    3-I have for my entire life been a true comic book collector. It is a long and great ride . No way that I have put my entire life into the comic book business aspect  like you as I have diversified. So I do salute you.....but Bud two things I want to say, one ,is stick to what you really know when you make statements about other collectors and their commitment to the comic book world, and two, again welcome to the boards.

     

     

     

  8. On 8/6/2023 at 7:28 PM, BLUECHIPCOLLECTIBLES said:

    Directions and even dialogue in the margins do not always and by necessity mean there was no writer involved in the process prior to that.  The same sort of margin notes appear on pages that were drawn by Kirby and by others which we know were done from detailed outlines which included dialogue and/or following a verbal pitch session.  And, yes, an outline written by the writer and given to the artist also is not proof that the artist was not involved prior to that.  Lee himself said Ditko insisted on doing it by himself a couple years in.  And he said that Kirby and he reached a point where Kirby and he would talk out a story and Kirby would come back with something different.    Or that sometimes he'd give Kirby just an idea (or that Kirby would volunteer an idea and Stan would say go with it).  All of that, and endless variations on it, is a typical part of a collaboration process like they had in Marvel and which has become the norm in movies and TV where an idea floats around the room passing through multiple minds and morphing into all sorts of things before the person in charge says it's ready to be committed to paper (or to ones and zeroes in somebody's laptop).  All that said, I know you might get what I am saying but that the most persistent people posting here and elsewhere on the interwebs glossed over what I wrote (if they read it) and screamed invectives about Lee from begin to end.  

    interesting comment...but if you had read the prior post..Stan was commenting  on HIS writing on the side of the panel.....he said a lot of what he wrote just does not exist. I will never forget the look on his face to say that is my writing..FYI

    and the  point is valid but again this issue is much more complex. The buzz as a on ground collector at that time 61-UP  was simply amazing things were being done and on ground collectors were abuzz. I know that everyone here is in agreement that something very special, even generational occurred during that time.

  9. On 8/6/2023 at 11:57 AM, BLUECHIPCOLLECTIBLES said:

    I'm not really sure what it is you "disagree" with, because the post was not about whether you have an "open mind" but about whether other people don't.  I believe you and I could have a conversation regarding Stan and writing credits and we'd both come away feeling the other was reasonable.  But there are people here whose agenda is so bare and so filled with vitriol that they can't abide the slightest indication that Stan Lee did any writing at all or that he even "read books".  There's some reasonable discussion here but  the main drivers behind this thread have about the same objectivity as Ahab talking about the White Whale

    My response to you is if you had read this thead for its highlights , on one of times I was with Stan, a page from FF12 was presented from his signature and his reaction and comments his writing contribution and writing on  the side etc . I am not saying nor do I believe anyone on this thead is saying Stan did not write some or edit-writing which would be a more correct term. I was there and saw what he claimed to be his work...Nuff said. In my study of this subject, I would say Stan as editor and co-contributor writer was much greater early on say 62/63. This is not going to change my overall opinion in reading from other sources, but did open my eyes to the increased contribution of Jack and Steve. It was great stuff when I bought it from the drugstore and it is great stuff today......One indication I would check was when Jack took over with Cap on tales of suspense...especially from issue 63 on...it  is Kirby all the way. Issue 59 was dated Nov 1964...which probably means early summer 64 this took place. I await SM disection of #59 up especially 63 and up....just look at that writing style on that run.....FYI at SDCC I just bought the Cap omnibus with 59-113 and am in the middle of reading it....a great book

  10. On 8/6/2023 at 12:48 PM, Robot Man said:

    Frankly, I have no desire to hunt down Vinnie’s video just thought someone might know.

    As far as most people are concerned it is a TOT #1 and looks pretty in a slab. Oh, and how much will it go for.

    My copy has the first issues of COT, HOF, and Crypt. In addition, WS #2. It definitely trumps most other copies content wise and should be in much higher demand.

    But many seem to only dwell on issue, cover and condition.

    I will, of course, be watching for the result for personal reasons…

    I think contents are important as a added bonus if you will, but I tracked down the video and watched for you again, its entertaining to say the least: Contents are Vault 15, WS 14, Cypt 19, Hof 16.....

  11. On 8/6/2023 at 7:28 AM, Robot Man said:

    Anybody know the contents of the Bobby Blue copy? These were made up of remaindered copies. There are many combinations. I know this book has great allure. But I do believe the contents should figure into the final hammer price.  

    See the video in which Vince gives the content list of the issues, As I remember there is at least one SF issue

  12. On 8/5/2023 at 11:44 AM, BLUECHIPCOLLECTIBLES said:

    There's no way I can justify the time to read  all the very voluminous posts here about Martin Goodman, but even in the context of this thread's unrelenting crusade to push a Stan-was-the-devil narrative, I would never have expected this ongoing attempt to divine what was going on in Goodman's mind, even though, as usual, the attempt starts with a Stan-bashing conclusion (that Goodman didn't have faith in him).  And, as usual, there's contradictions galore.  Like when posters declare "Facts are facts" and then make many declarations that rely entirely on reading Goodman's mind sixty years after the fact.  Even while deriding Goodman's creative perception as minimal.  Repeatedly Goodman's described as someone who was not a good judge of talent or material, even as the posts try so very hard to establish the narrative that Goodman didn't have faith in Lee's work or judgment.   Facts only matter if they Slam Satanic Stan.  Contradictions are fine if they say Kirby's Divine.      

    I disagree. As an original SA collector I came to this thead with an open mind. I would recommend you read the Greg's Pure Images issues on the birth of Spiderman and Marvel comics..two issues. He was in the know years before anyone had any idea to the true creative input and who did what and where. Despite those being way ahead of their time and my conversations with Stan and Jack several times, including Stan's comment on the SS graphic novel, that Kirby does not have it anymore(he rejected a number of pages on that historic graphic novel) this thead is worth reading line by line. It  takes careful disection issue by issue, month by month and year by year the evidence is overwhelming. We know Stan took the credit and writer money and I am not saying he did not play a significant  part in the whole deal....but what is unacceptable is Stan constant changing of the Story.

    I suggest you give this thead a read and then make judgement

  13. On 8/4/2023 at 1:53 PM, goldust40 said:

    Looking forward to tomorrow's bulletin.

    OK here is your requested update. A little back story first...you remember the Gaines file copy sales...well there were NO TTA1 available and I think at the time he only had his personal copy if that. Remember Vault #12 was in short supply but Gaines commented on how really  rare that  TTA #1 book was.. That was many eons ago. The 40/50 year old collector knows what is rare, especially a new to the market copy such as this one really is. Current Bid $15,500.00 with 20 days to go. Hope that is a cool bulletin for you!!!!

  14. Major movements on the impossible Tales of Terror ANN #1  currently at auction on CC.  With 21 days  to go current bid is $14,277... still a fraction of value but up quite a bit from the low initial bid. I hope someone here gets the WIN on this....deepest color copy I have ever seen in my 50+ years of collecting.

  15. On 8/4/2023 at 11:09 AM, brettfes said:

    so what do we think the state of the site is for tonight? its clearly a s**t-show, but going forward no matter what... which seems, well... lmfao.... not bidding but curious.

     

    I would proceed with caution and avoid it until some update detailing what has occurred and what risks are involved in using the site while it is being either attacked or compromised. Just a simple  it is OK would do as I would believe them.

  16. A relic of the past, with little or no value as to determining what you comic book is worth in real time.I quit at 30 and just looked at the new one, this is sad that it really is not different than it was 20 years ago. Hopefully if you get a new editor..something can change for the better, otherwise I buy real comic books with that money I would of spent buying this reprint....very sad as early on in the 70's , they were invaluable 

  17. On 8/2/2023 at 3:01 PM, jjonahjameson11 said:

    This has happened several times in the past and you’d think they would have at least learned how to provide communications updates by now.  Just brutal!

    You can probably communicate on Facebook, etc to at least give us an update as to what has happened. Most certainly gives HA and CC a big edge over them.....