Brock

OK, I'll admit it... me too.

I think there are always opportunities, but the ones that people think are obvious are already priced high. The winners will be things so obscure that they got overlooked in the current frenzy. A few years ago, if you'd said an obscure back-up story based on a Beatles song about "Rocky Raccoon" in a cancelled black and white anthology magazine would launch a billion dollar marketing frenzy, no one would have believed you. The books that will generate the biggest returns are the ones that nobody bets on. I'm not recommending these, but what happens if the Creeper, Blue Devil, Dakota North or NFL Superpro get picked up for a movie directed by James Cameron and starring Brad Pitt and Jennifer Lawrence? Well, maybe not NFL Superpro... The farther back in time you go, the bigger the lift might be... Sea Devils: The Motion Picture, anyone? Just like with Groot...

To be fair, so is the werewolf's. What jumped out to me was the Liefeld feet (or lack thereof).

Interesting... I haven't seen this referenced before, but it would make sense. If "hero titles" (Battle of the Planets, Buck Rogers, Flash Gordon, etc) were the most collected, followed by Disney titles, and then Looney Tunes (and Bugs Bunny, Porky Pig, etc.), that would leave titles like Woody Woodpecker, Little Lulu and Popeye as the tough books. For a time, many considered Little Lulu #260 to be the toughest book. I have a copy of Woody Woodpecker #191, so it hadn't jumped out to me as a tougher book, but it makes sense.

This is really helpful insight, comicwiz... I appreciate the feedback, and share the following thoughts in response, in the interest of keeping the discussion going. I think this is key... it is, to some extent, the non-Whitman collectors that drove the first price spikes. I guess I'm not necessarily convinced that "dinosaur cover collectors" are a thing any more (or at least, not a segment large enough to drive the market), but I certainly think Scrooge collectors drove the prices up on Uncle Scrooge #179. This is much the way that Star Wars collectors, rather than variant collectors, drove the initial price jumps on the 35 cent variant of Star Wars #1. Doug's list has changed a lot over the years, but he currently (as far as I can tell) makes no claims about relative rarity. He does identify what he says are the 40 rarest books (including Black Hole #4, Super Goof #61, and Uncle Scrooge #179), but he only lists the 40 alphanumerically, without claims about individual books. The claim about Super Goof #61 (which, like you, I don't agree with) is from comicspriceguide.com, and not from Doug. I think we owe Doug a huge vote of thanks for the first real attempt to track these, and now its important for us (if we're interested in these things, or preparing to make claims about relative scarcity) to build on that start. I agree completely, and was trying to make the same point above by suggesting that most dealers do not have these books in their inventory, meaning supply is (generally) only available through non-traditional sources. Your London, ON experience also mirrors my growing conviction that Canada was a "primary distribution cluster" for these books. I agree completely. However, I think many scarce books begin this way. We certainly saw this with the 35 cent Marvel variants, and its now underway with the 30 cent variants. We may be seeing signs of this with 75 cent Whitman Canadian price variants, and even with Copper Age DCU variants. In my mind, this is a natural stage in the maturing process of a very scarce collectible. I'll also say that I'm likely guilty of this to a certain extent. I'm fascinated by the 8-12/80 Whitman variants, and I buy when I can scoop them cheap, but don't pay big for them, as it's not really a focus of my collecting. Having said that, I have and will pay good money for DC Whitman variants. I'm #1 on the registry right now with these, and it's taken a lot of work to get there, with a long way to go. And, in my experience, offering money doesn't tend to draw these out... I've posted 5 or 6 times in the WTB section here on the boards for example, seeking CGC-slabbed (9.0 or higher) DC Whitmans, but have NEVER had a response (barring a few offers of raw copies). Ironically, Doug Sulipa has become my major source. Agreed, but with the caveat that his list is (essentially) 40 books listed in random order, without being ranked. (As an aside, he also identifies what he considers the 68 rarest and their numbers from the CGC census in a second list). He also doesn't make any lists or claims about the relative scarcity of DC Whitmans at all...

+1

Hi Bell - This is a really tough question, so bear with me while I unload my current thinking... we have so little data on these, that it's all speculation and opinion. The main problem is that EVERYONE's experience is anecdotal. To take it away from the DC Whitmans for a minute, let's think about the scarce 8-12/1980 Whitman (Western/Gold Key) pre-pack issues. Doug Sulipa has been tracking these for years, and has taken a stab at quantifying them by scarcity. He has handled far more of these issues than I have, and he also uses the CGC census, but my experience differs dramatically... I have multiple copies (for example) of Uncle Scrooge 179, Super Goof 61, and Black Hole 4, which are widely regarded as some of the toughest Whitmans out there. At the same time, I just snagged my first Yosemite Sam 70 last week, which I've never seen before. Of course, it doesn't make most people's "scarce" list. So who's right? The problem with these books is that supply is generally so low, accurate assessments of numbers or relative scarcity is really tough... Both Doug's list and mine are valid, but based on the limited sample of books we have each seen. Doug's sample may be larger than mine, but it is till limited. The 2nd thing to keep in mind is the historically low collectability of Whitmans. The Western/Gold Key books were not heavily collected, and (for may years) the DC Whitman variants were regarded as reprints. In my current thinking, this has shaped perceptions of scarcity in three significant ways: Many books were not initially "curated" by collectors - because they were not "collectible", they were not generally saved, and certainly not (generally) protected by bagging, boarding, and boxing. This in turn means two things: the books are scarce in a traditional collecting context, in that the typical comic shop will not have copies available the books are more frequently found in lower grades, which creates a disparity between "total number of copies" and "total number of high grade copies" Rising awareness of the scarcity of these books has emerged unevenly, and created strange price variations that may not represent true indications of supply and demand. One of the earliest books identified as "scarce", for example, was Uncle Scrooge 179. The awareness has caused prices to rise substantially ($1500 in the most recent Overstreet), but it has also spurred increased supply. People now actively seek the book, and the high price prompts them to sell it, which makes it APPEAR more plentiful, when in fact it may simply be more recognized. I think that DC Comics Presents #22 is going through this process at the moment. First, we weren't sure it existed (Overstreet still doesn't list it). Then it's identified, and begins to attract attention, and some high prices ($1500 for a CGC 8.5, $590 for the most recent low grade copy). Then people start to find more (both you and I have found copies in the past 18 months). The PERCEPTION of supply has gone from 0 copies existing, to perhaps 20 copies known, but the ACTUAL supply has not changed. Rising "collectability" ensures that supply accuracy becomes HARDER to understand over time. As the popularity of Whitmans rises, they are snatched up by collectors when they appear, and buried in collections. Issues "identified" as rare (by CBSI, by Sulipa, by Overstreet, etc.) are the FIRST to disappear, and the ones that people hold onto longest. Last week I found a copy of Super Goof 61, which seemed like just another tougher Whitman book to me, until I saw comicspriceguide.com's notation that this was "considered the rarest Whitman comic" with a valuation of $800. I'm much less likely to let go of this now, even though it's my second copy. And unless I posted this note, no one would ever know that another copy (or copies) had disappeared into my collection. So what does all this mean? Here's my takeaways... Very few Whitmans are "impossible"... the supply is generally better than we think, but the distribution and visibility of these books is both random and poor Some Whitmans are EXTREMELY tough in high grade... It seems that DC Comics Presents #22 has an 8.5 as the best copy, for example Those who claim knowledge of actual Whitman scarcity are doing so based on limited (and, I would suggest) inaccurate personal assessments of incomplete data (though Canadian data may be slightly better than US data in these cases) In my own guesstimates of scarcity, I reflect on the factors outlined (1-3) above and suggest the following, recognizing that I can't really make valid observations about TOTAL supply: Earlier Whitmans are easier to find in high grade than later Whitmans Whitman treasuries are generally easier to find that many regular issues, and presumably had a different distribution mechanism Traditionally collected titles (like Batman, Action or Superman) are easier to find in high grades Traditionally un-collected titles (like DC Comics Presents or New Adventures of Superboy) are harder to find in high grades #1 issues (such as DC Comics Presents #1 or New Adventures of Superboy #1) are generally easier to find than other issues of those titles, and are generally in higher grade Whitman "experiments" like Sgt. Rock #329 or Warlord #22 are tough in all grades, but especially in high grade Ultimately, while I'd be hesitant to make a formal "list" of the scarcest books, I'd be leaning to things like DC Comics Presents #22, New Adventures of Superboy #6, or Warlord #22. Justice League of America #179 seems to be a tough book. I think that Sgt. Rock #329 is a sleeping giant, and a genuinely scarce book. I think DC Comics Presents #10 is very hard in high grade, though a little easier in low-to-mid grades. This is probably waaaaay more than you wanted (and without an actual scarcity list, perhaps way less at the same time), but it would be great to spur a larger discussion about this. I'll be the first to admit that my knowledge is limited, so I look forward to more input... And, if anyone's interested, I have some thoughts on how a crowd-sourced project to get a better measure of scarcity for DC Whitmans might be a possibility...

This week I managed to pick up about 20 scarce Gold Key/Whitman pre-pack variants (including an Uncle Scrooge #179) in southern Ontario. I now have a few hundred of these scarcer Whitmans (8-12/80 Westerns and tougher DC variants) and the more that time goes on, the more convinced of this I become.

This is part of a series of early TPBs published by Western in the late 1970s. Over the years I've been able to identify the following books in this format: Star Trek: The Enterprise Logs vols. 1, 2, 3, and 4 ( two versions exist - 1 with a cover price, and one with a black bar printed over the price) - these also have more modern reprints (from Checker Books, IIRC) Lassie Mickey Mouse Club Bugs Bunny UFO Encounters - #1 and #3 were published UFO Mysteries - title change for #2 Questar Illustrated Science Fiction Although the Star Trek books are well known, the others are all more obscure, and generally hard to find in high grade (IMHO). and I loved those Gold KEy UFO books as a kid, but haven't read them in years, so I'm not sure how they'd stand up.

Thanks for the input, everyone! No spoilers here, but I have made a number of changes based on the discussion here. No list will EVER make everyone completely happy, but hopefully it's close to a consensus perspective. I will post the list here once the guide comes out about 7 or 8 months from now...

I'm an advisor (6 years now, I think). I use input from the boards to "crowd source" some elements of my market reports.

It took awhile to dig this out, but here's the Hulk book...

Hello all - It's that time of year, as I rush to put together my annual "crowd-sourced" list of the Top 50 Copper Age keys for the annual Overstreet Price Guide. What are the key books of this era? What books need to be added, and which ones get the boot? We're working from a (rough) 1982 to 1992 timeline here. Last year's list (which appears on p. 112 of the Guide) included the following books: Albedo #2 Amazing Spider-Man #238, #252, #298, #300, #301, #316 Archie's Girls Betty and Veronica #320 Batman #357, #404, #428 Batman: The Dark Knight Returns #1 Batman: The Killing Joke Bone #1 Caliber Presents #1 Comico Primer #2 Crisis on Infinite Earths #1 The Crow #1 Daredevil #181 DC Comics Presents #47 Evil Ernie #1 G.I. Joe: A Real American Hero #1 Harbinger #1 Incredible Hulk #271, #340 Legends #3 Marvel Graphic Novel #4 Marvel Super Heroes Secret Wars #8 Miracleman #15 New Mutants #87, #98 Sandman #1, #8 Spectacular Spider-Man #64 Suicide Squad #1 Superman #75 Swamp Thing #21, #37 Tales of the New Teen Titans #44 Thor #337 Transformers #1 Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles #1 Uncanny X-Men #221, #248, #266 Warrior (UK Magazine) #1 Watchmen #1 Wolverine (limited series) #1 X-Factor #6, #24 What are your thoughts and suggestions? As always, while I'll use some "editorial oversight" I will do my best to reflect the consensus of the discussion...

This is not entirely true. There are several that sell much higher, including the Reverse Flash/Professor Zoom issues (eg 324, 325) that often sell for $30-$50. There are other scattered issues that also do very well.

I picked up some nice copies of Crow 2 and 3 2nd prints today, but I can't find any recent sales or good pricing data for these... can anyone share their sense of what these are going for currently? There have been some steep-ish asking prices on Ebay ($40-$45) for #3, but no takers, and no listings I can see for #2. thanks in advance...

It's an amorous technique that's still illegal in 12 states, I think...

These make so much sense to me too.

I have served as an "expert witness" for the Ontario (Canada) courts in legal cases seeking compensation for damaged and destroyed comics due to flooding. You can PM me if you'd like to get into greater detail, but one technique I have used is to create a chart that considers market pricing from a range of sources. To give a good range, I'll often include Overstreet, comicspriceguide.com, Mile High Comics, mycomicshop.com, and completed ebay sales. Of course Mile High is, well, mile high in its prices, but the full list gives a pretty good range to work from, and represents a mix of price guides, commercial list prices, and auction sales. The key in the cases I have worked on relates to suggesting that replacement value for specific books is much higher than for a general lot of books (i.e. Replacing 100 specific books is more expensive tha simply acquiring any 100 books, wether they're golden age rarities, or modern drek).

Offer to trade him two mediocre comics - or three bad ones - for every good one.

Ok, I'll help out... here's a few of my recent copper sales. And for @1Cool, these were not 9.6/9.8... Labyrinth #3 for in VF/NM for $27.50 Alf #48 in FN for $27.50 Saga of Crystar #8 in NM- for $19.50 I don't think any of those are heating up hugely based on those prices, but market strength in less than perfect grades is a good sign...

Hey, it worked for Kiefer Sutherland...

Aside from the nudity, sex, decapitation, dismemberment and casual violence, it's pretty tame.

#15 is the big one... The early issues are actually pretty common, but later issues were all over the map in terms of print run and distribution, and can be tougher to find. Some of the early TPBs/HCs are pricey. These books seem to be in a bit of a slump at the moment, but they're a great read, and possible a good long-term bet.

For starters:

As an early New X-Men collector, I once bought a copy of Marvel Premiere #15 thinking it was Iron Fist #15. Since MP #15 is Iron Fist's first appearance, I'm now laughing all the way to the bank...