Kevin Boyd

...or to make money. Be they crack-heads or not, that's a cop-out. Rating isn't everything about e-bay feedback. IMHO, as a seller feedback lets your buyer know that you got their payment and you have completed your end of the transaction. As a buyer, feedback lets your seller know that you received the goods that you sent them and is satisfied. Holding your buyer's feedback hostage because you fear a retaliatory negative makes me think you inherently distrust your customers or perhaps that something is wrong with your product. If you want to keep such a policy, then certainly don't say so in your auctions! Kev

Your policy stinks. If they pay and you've sent the goods, then your side of the transaction is done and you should leave positive feedback. Kev

October 1970 seems the likely choice because of all the reasons you mentioned before (Conan 1, et al.), but perhaps it might be easier to say January 1970 was the start date because it was such a clean break. In pop culture in general and social history in particular December 1969/January 1970 is a significant date simply because it is seen as the end of an era of significant social change and the start of what's become known as the "me" decade of indulgence. It is still seen as one of the most particularly innovative period in rock music, television and motion pictures. We've discussed those Batman stories before, and I agree that they are extremely significant. Adams calls them experimental and unique in Les Daniels' Batman the Complete History book. And I would definitely classify Man-Bat as being more of a Bronze age character (akin to Morbius the Living Vampire in ASM) than a silver one. So in that regards I could see the intro of Man-Bat in Detective 400 (June 1970) as a bronze age event (preceding GL/GA and Conan by a few months). Ra's Al Ghul is definitely a bronze age character. Also, cover dates at the time were well in advance of publication dates to indicate how long the retailer should keep the book on display until before the distributor would accept returns. (I think it was three months difference). So June 1970 books would have been on the racks early in 1970 - probably in March 1970. January 1970 books would have been on the racks in October 1969. October 1970 books would have been on the racks in July 1970. Kev

I agree with JC that most people equate Bronze with Marvel, but I have no problem classifying Swamp Thing, The Shadow and Kirby's Fourth World titles as Bronze. Most fit the bronze age "mold" of violent or supernatural/monster anti-heroes, inspiration from pulps, tolkein-esque fantasy elements, etc. I do have a problem classifying Adams' Avengers, X-Men, Spectre, Deadman and Batman comics as bronze. They are definitely grounded in the silver age. Ditto for Steranko's Nick Fury Agent of SHIELD and Captain America. Kev

Cut and print. A logical, well-written and thoroughly engrossing post. No disagreements here. Follows pretty much my own points. Thanks Theagenes, Kevin

You do realize that the Flash started in the 1950s, was simply a revamp of an earlier Golden Age hero with the same name, didn't go monthly for years after, and never ever became the best-selling title, don't you? Although the roots of the revival was to revamp an earlier golden age hero with the same name, Barry Allen's Flash is a new character with similar powers as the GA Flash who takes inspiration from the GA Flash comic book. He is pretty much a new hero in a new world. While in the New X-Men the old team is in trouble, Cyclops gets away and he and Prof. X need more mutants so they go out and recruit new talent who stick around when they other guys get released because they old team needs a break. Kev

But it's also true that superheroes weren't out of the sales spotlight in 1956, either. DC still had a bunch -- ACTION, ADVENTURE, BATMAN, DETECTIVE, SUPERBOY, SUPERMAN, SUPERMAN'S PAL JIMMY OLSEN and WONDER WOMAN. Marvel had tried reviving its big three. Jack Kirby was still out there pitching. Charlton took a couple shots at superheroes. I agree that there might be some comparison there, but we are essentially comparing a handful of characters (Batman family/Superman family/Wonder Woman +Aquaman/Green Arrow/Martian Manhunter) against nearly the entire publishing lines of Marvel and DC in 1975 - each boasting dozens of super-hero comics which were still outselling the fantasy/horror/romance/etc. genres. Marvel's revival was in 1953 and was three years dead when DC reinvented the Flash and it would be another 5 years before they got back into it again. It's the eventual onslaught of superheroes in the 1960s that led folks to back-date the start of what came to be called the Silver Age to the publication of SHOWCASE # 4. Not everybody agrees that the Barry-Flash's debut was the *real* beginning of the Silver Age, though -- some identify other titles, like the first J'onn J'onzz DETECTIVE; some identify other trends, like the adoption of the CCA seal or the collapse of EC. Yes. There are some prototype characters, but I think it's been pretty much accepted fact that Showcase 4 is the first silver age comic and that there is a lot of overlapping. Since DC and Marvel both cancelled a number of their seminal Silver Age superhero titles in the late 60s/early 70s, and replaced them not with other superheroes but weird/supernatural/horror type comics, I've taken to using "weird age" as a shorthand way of referring to the period roughly lasting from 1970-75. There were certainly monster comics and sword-and-sorcery comics before then, and plenty after then, but as an industry-wide *trend* they appear to be congested in that 5-6 year period. What seminal Silver Age titles did Marvel cancel? If anything Marvel exploded in the early 1970's because they were no longer bound by the number of titles they were restricted to because the books were being distributed by National/DC. Tales to Astonish, Tales of Suspense were actually divided into four successful series (Hulk, Cap, Iron Man, Sub-Mariner). Strange Tales became Dr. Strange. Silver Surfer rose and fell. The restrictions against supernatural comics were lifted by the code and Marvel leapt at the chance to do monster books. X-Men was the great silver age failure and thus became a mostly reprint book until the revival in 1975. I agree that the axe rose and fell pretty quickly at DC in the 1970's, especially when DC imploded in the mid-70's. They devoted a lot of time and effort on the weird books mainly because the code lifted the restrictions and Joe Orlando was the editor on DC's horror/mystery line. But sales on those books were not as strong as those on the super-hero titles. Again, no argument from me. But I think that "relevance" stuff, as I noted in an earlier post to Zonker, was very short-lived. Check out any Superman family title dated 1973 or later -- the post-Kirby era when DC tried to turn WGBS into a "Mary Tyler Moore Show" type sitcom, with Steve Lombard always playing practical jokes on Clark Kent, etc. Check out Batman during the David V. Reed/Ernie Chua years -- a far cry from O'Neil & Adams. You can't check out GREEN LANTERN/GREEN ARROW or AQUAMAN because they'd been cancelled. The Justice League stopped battling pollution and hunger and instead focused on finding as many Golden Age heroes as they could to exhume/rescue. Etc. Maybe I'm confusing relevance with a lack of innocence. 1970's super-hero books don't read as naively as their silver age counterparts. And actually, you could read GL/GA because they moved over to the Flash. Then GL was revived again, then Aquaman was revived again. Then Aquaman moved over to Adventure, and so on. DC comics (other than the Titans) published between the mid-1970's and the Crisis restructuring were bland and completely uninteresting. DC heroes got "involved" but being the relatively stodgy, conservative bunch that they were the creators and heroes had no idea what to do. They became the party of the comic publishing world. Which is why I feel that the Bronze age for DC began with relevance and coasted thru to the eventual demise of the silver age DCU with the Crisis event which ushered in the next age which I feel began around 1985-86. I don't necessarily agree with you, but I like how you make a case for ol' Power Man. Your arguments are compelling, I'll give you that. I guess my kneejerk reaction would be, "Yeah, but was LUKE CAGE ever very popular as a title? Didn't the teaming up with IRON FIST result because neither title was selling all that well?But then again, THE FLASH was never DC's best-selling title, either." I don't necessarily agree with me either, but I'm merely suggesting that for the same reasons you seem to be suggesting GSXM1 there are many other examples available of similar concepts which were similar to the New X-Men. And yes, Cage was never a really popular character until he was combined with Iron Fist (who was a very popular character when the titles were merged together). Going back to THE FLASH, though, I don't think there have *ever* been any FLASH spin-offs. And it took a number of years for THE FLASH to be spun out of SHOWCASE, and GREEN LANTERN didn't get his own title till 1960, if you want to consider GL a "spin-off." Actually, I DO. The success of the Flash led the DC editorial staff to say what other golden age characters can we revive but also tie in with our successful sci-fi line of comics? Let's try Green Lantern. Let's try the Atom. Let's try Hawkman. Let's bring back the Justice Society but gave them an updated name, and so on. SHOWCASE # 4 is cited as the first Silver Age comic book because it eventually led to something much greater than the sum of its 32-page parts. Same deal with GIANT-SIZE X-MEN # 1 Showcase 4 is cited as the first Silver Age comic book because it eventually led to a super-hero revival at National/DC and eventually at Marvel and Archie and Tower and Charlton and so on. Because of the success of the Flash (and GL and the JLA, etc.) nearly every major comic book publisher began to put out their own super-hero comics. (Mimicking the growth pattern of super-hero comics between 1939-1947). I don't see how GSXM1 grew beyond the sum of it's parts until the NEXT age of comics that followed the bronze age (which I believe to have begun around 1984-85) as it was then that the X-Men truly became the defining force in the industry and the formula was copied by a number of different publishers (particularly Image which was essentially spun from the exiting X-Men line creators). Between 1975 and 1985 X-Men was popular but by no means was it the defining book of the decade. It has become the biggest book of the 1970's due to the success of the X-Men in the 1980's (ditto for Hulk 181). Since the super-heroes never really faded as they did during the 1950's, I don't know if there really is a need for "in-between" ages such as the Atom age for 1970's books. I see it more of an evolution of the existing lines with "relevance" and "anti-heroism" being the defining traits of Bronze age super-hero comics. While "company-wide crossovers", "grim-and-gritty", exploitation of readers and "revamping" were the defining characteristics of the next age (1984/5 -?1999?). But I can accept that within the Bronze age there could be a subdivision of books called "Weird". Kev

I still find that most of these arguments are somewhat irrelevant in that at no point during the 1970's were superheroes EVER out of the sales spotlight. Sure there were a proliferation of NON or QUASI-super-hero titles that were popular during the 1970's but the same could be said of any time in the history of comic book publishing. Yes, the popularity of horror and barbarian comics could warrant a separate distinction as they rose and fell fairly quickly. But I still feel quite strongly that there is a very different feel to superhero comics published after 1968-70 by Marvel and DC. Superheroes stopped interacting in worlds that "sort of" resembled our own. They began to address societal issues and began to behave a little less heroically than they did in the silver age and this carried right thru the decade and in the new heroes that came in during that time period INCLUDING the X-Men. Although Conan was not a super-hero he was definitely marketted as one and the new heroes introduced after Conan incorporated much of his attitude, especially the Wolverine - unquestionably the most popular X-Men character. Marvel super-heroes dominated the decade. New Marvel heroes introduced in the early 1970's would continue to be active throughout the decade on their own and in the team books that began to appear like the Champions and the Defenders. Luke Cage, Ghost Rider, The Cat/Hellcat, the Son of Satan, Werewolf by Night, Iron Fist, Man-Thing, etc. None of them had the appeal that X-Men had years after their revival but many of them are still around today in one form or the other. In a lot of ways, the Defenders could be seen as the Marvel team book that launched the 1970's as it had an outsider dynamic which somewhat resembles the formula that was applied to the new X-Men. I could argue that Luke Cage was the first true and unique Bronze age super-hero as he was super-powered, an anti-hero, an outsider, a man of color (preceding the inter-racial, multi-ethnic flavor of the New X-Men), dealt with social issues, and he did headline a long-running popular series and was joined by a similar hero with a strong Asian feel (although he wasn't asian) that was a big fan-favorite: Iron Fist. Perhaps "Hero for Hire 1" is the Bronze era's "Showcase 4" equivalent. I'm not convinced that it is, but it's the same argument as using the X-Men as the starting point. Nor does the arrival of X-Men herald an opening up of new ideas and concepts. Someone (Dave Cockrum maybe) wanted to have a team of international Marvel super-heroes and someone else wanted to have a new team of outsider characters similar to the Defenders but with the "family" feel of the fan-favorite Legion of Super-heroes. I think it was Roy Thomas who suggested grafting those ideas onto the dormant X-Men. This essentially ad hoc revival of a failed concept with some new international characters didn't really catch on until the arrival of John Byrne as series artist, who had already proven himself on Marvel Team-Up and on Iron Fist which was the hot Marvel book in the comic shops after Howard the Duck but before X-Men's immense success. Can you name one X-Men spin-off title published between 1975 and 1982? I can't. Not until the Wolverine mini-series was published in 1982. Sure, fans were hot for the X-Men appearances in Power Man and Iron Fist, Marvel Team-Up, Rom and other titles but the real X-boom started around 1980-81. There was indeed a higher number of new DC titles launched after 1975 because many long-running DC titles were cancelled or retooled during the time period to make room for these new titles. I can't think of a single new DC title that was launched during the 1970's with any long-term success. Characters like Flash, Aquaman, Hawkman and Green Lantern had their ups and downs but at no point did they ever disappear completely so I find it hard to embrace your point about a successful Green Lantern revival that carries on to this day when he's had a couple of series cancelled and relaunched during the last 25+ years. This is true of nearly EVERY DC character and team. As always, the only titles consistantly published at DC have been Action/Detective/Superman(now Adventures of)/Batman. And only one DC series could be argued to have been specifically designed to mimic the X-Men was New Teen Titans - and I'm sure that Marv Wolfman and George Perez would argue that they were reviving the Teen Titans not trying to create another X-Men team. And drawing a line between X-Men and the rise of the direct market is silly. The rise of the direct market began in the early 1970's as the early distributors began carrying and promoting the hot books of that time period (like Conan). The X-Men did benefit from the comic shops that were spring up at the time, but they didn't directly contribute to the successful transfer from newsstand to direct distribution. The first unique independants from the mid-1970's were mostly fantasy-related - Elfquest, the First Kingdom, Cerebus, Star Reach and the like were completely unlike X-Men in every respect. I have a hard time finding any alternative books that even slightly resemble the X-Men until Eclipse's DNAgents and Comico's The Elementals were published around 1984. Before that, the most successful alternative books were fantasy or sci-fi related. Kev

What I do not support is dealers using Movie Hype to fuel unsustainable prices in books and collectors basing their purchase decisions on speculation on which characters may or may not appear in an upcoming movie or how well a movie will do at the box office. What does that have to do with anything? Are you telling me that I should turn the other cheek and say that $295 for a DD #188 CGC 9.6 is OK? Let's call a spade a spade: that price is just absurd. Not sure I get your whole rant - you don't support dealers who hype - I don't like that kind of hype myself, but I choose to ignore it. But how would one support or not support a buyer's decision to speculate? That's up to them to decide, not you. And yes, that price IS absurd. The only factor that should count as far as movies are concerned are whether the films will spur popularity of a character that leads to long-term increased demand for that character's appearances. As far as the CGC market is concerned, did the Spidey movie really do that? Wasn't the Green Goblin already the most popular Spidey villain and weren't the people bidding up ASM #14 and #122 and what not already hard-core collectors before the movie? CGC market... probably not. BUT overall... definitely. Increased awareness of Spider-Man through the movie and related tie-ins (like videogames, toys, etc.) has probably lead to increased long-term demand for Spider-Man items by creating new fans and reviving interest from casual fans. And if Movie Hype really does lift all boats, why do Movie Hype proponents always point to X-Men and Spidey? What about the vast number of other existing and planned comic-related movie and TV projects? Weren't X-Men and Spidey already the industry's two hottest franchises? Did we need movies to boost their comic values? Of course not. It just gave dealers an excuse to hype the books up further. There's nothing wrong with hype as a selling tactic. It's a common tactic used in advertising and sales in most if not all areas. I'm not a proponant of movie hype myself, but these short term blips of interest are not uncommon when there is a media-generated "event" such as a movie or TV show. Sellers will go by their past experience with similar events - lile the spike the Batman show gave the comics in the late sixties, and the similar spike and rampant speculation we saw in 1989 with the release of the Burton Batman film. Truth is that, hype or not, increased exposure does make this insular community of buyers and sellers truly believe that the masses will suddenly flock to a specific back issue or issues. It's become a pretty standard aspect of the hobby of comic book collecting and it's carrying over to CGC auctions. It's a no-brainer that when those fabled masses of new fans the event could generate don't come, the books will cool off again to pre-hype levels. Kev

Hey Darth, I think maybe he just hit a nerve with that remark. You've got to admit the modern market can be pretty risky... and considering that many older collectors have abandoned new books entirely, a little sarcasm from that group is not unexpected. You don't need their approval... don't let this stress you out. Kev

Yep. I've been selling them for $25 just to move them. Thankfully most of them aren't mine, and the owner is prepared to take a loss just to recoup most of his money. Aside from some exceptions there doesn't seem to be a lot of interest. A great idea in theory I guess. On that note, I did have a good laugh at the latest Dynamic Forces catalogue inserted in the new Wizard. They want $100-200 for signature series books that regularly sell on e-bay for $25-50 max. Kev

I don't think that there is, no. $25 includes more than just grading as Paradise (or whoever) and CGC must do the actual legwork to get that signature. They have to line up or arrange to meet the artist, and time is money. Kev

Actually I would call Detective 395 a precursor of the Bronze Age. Comparable to the issue of Detective (I forget the number) in which the Martian Manhunter made his appearance. The issue was published prior to the publication of Showcase 4, and MM is definitely a Silver Age hero. Kev

Yowza, that was harsh! Bruce wanted to go the extra mile to give an extra guarantee, and there's nothing wrong with that. He got the feedback (good and bad) that he wanted and he's made a decision. If you had an idea that you thought was a good one, and a lot of people shot it down, and some people even made negative accusations about you along the way you might be a little bitter too! Kev

I don't think that anyone is disputing the staying power and influence of that particular book. The book that started any particular age does not have to be the one that is most successful in the long-term! If that was the case, then AF15 or FF1 would be considered the start of the Silver age since Showcase 4 and the Flash were not as successful in the long run. While that book may have kicked up a revival of superheroes (even though Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman were always around), the Marvel books, especially Spider-Man have kept generations enthralled. But we accept Showcase 4 as the start because of it's influence at the time, not for it's staying power. Same goes with the Bronze age, X-Men were a product of what had been occurring for 5 years prior to GSXmen1's publication. Kev

Oh no... not more Anonymous posters Great to see the forum getting some recognition, as we've had some great debates here. So long as we don't start up a creative fiction board where we all create our own continuing stories starring ourselves fighting with and/or against fictional characters and other super-heroes then the CGC BOARDS ROCK! We've moved from metal to plastic, we're in the Barex Age! Kev

It seems like Mr. Silver Age is bolstering his own argument for GS Xmen1 being the first bronze age book. A lot of people wrote in to agree with him, and those that didn't he pretty much shot down because it doesn't fit in with his own views. Platinum books are mostly strip reprints, but I agree that the various ages do not need to be superhero-specific. Which is precisely why I don't personally agree with his argument for that particular book. The bronze age was ushered in by a new wave of horror, adult themes and relevancy topics, and the rise of the anti-hero as the most popular genres in comics. Since Conan is the first of these anti-heroes, Conan #1 makes the most sense. At Marvel he was followed by Ghost Rider, Man-Thing, Werewolf by Night, the Punisher, Warlock's new look, Wolverine, Howard the Duck, etc. If anything, the X-Men's themes of alienation and empowerment were the END results of this new movement, not the beginning of it. At DC they didn't quite embrace the anti-hero concept, but you could say that Green Arrow's new look and ideals (as embraced in GL/GA 76) made him a rebel and an anti-hero, and DC did launch a new line of horror/gothic horror books including Swamp Thing, Stalker, Swords of Sorcery, the Warlord, and even the Shadow (who was very much the anti-hero in the Kaluta books). Some stuck around, others didn't. If you look at contemporary science fiction authors at that time, science fiction had taken a proverbial twist away from the bright-eyed optimism of the 50's and 60's towards the fantasy of Howard (although he had written in the 30's, his late 60's reprintings in paperback form introduced a whole battery of imitators) and Michael Moorcock (whose heroes were decidedly unheroic), and others. In film as well, movies were exploring darker territories. The heroes of the early 70's were more anti-heroes than heroes, Dirty Harry, Shaft, et al. were men with their own set of moral codes that often clashed with the more stolid sectors of society. In horror, films like the Texas Chainsaw Massacre were shocking audiences with the extent of their violence and capturing the imaginations (good or bad) of the audience. To just look back and say the X-Men were the most popular characters of the new age thus they must be the catalyst is probably the most ignorant argument I have heard to date and self-serving to only to the large number of New X-Men fans. Kev

Hi Bruce, I guess I would have found out about your other return policies if I'd followed the link to your auctions, thanks for clarifying. Your return policy is quite reasonable and certainly removes all doubt. I would still recommend skipping the CGC guarantee aspects of the book entirely except for the part about restoration check (i.e. if it comes back restored you will refund cost + slabbing costs). It really seems unnecessary if you are getting your high-grade stuff graded and you conservatively grade the mid-to-low-grade books you do list on e-bay AND you offer a satisfaction return policy. Thanks! Kev

Honestly? If they are lucky enough to get their book back from CGC within 6 months and the grading isn't close to what you guaranteed, you really should reimburse them for the grading fee to reimburse them for the time, money and effort they put into getting the book graded. Plus, you end up with a slabbed book to resell. I would recommend not using such a guarantee at all. Instead I would either: (a) Stand beside your grading on it's own. If you think that the book is a 9.4 and the buyer does not agree with your grading (he thinks it's only an 8.5) then accept the return NOW instead of making them go through the time, money and effort of getting the book slabbed. (b) Submit your book to CGC first and then sell the slabbed book. Kev

That was the one where he stops at a diner and makes the waitress an offer she can't possibly accept but would be stupid to turn down...? That was a great story! Byrne did what no one was able to do in all the years that Luthor had been around as Superman's main villain.... made him truly ruthless, manipulative and evil on even the most basic of levels. A great compliment to Superman's lofty idealism. Kev

Mine is for "The Kid Who Collected Spider-Man" from ASM 248 by Roger Stern and Ron Frenz. Not even a full issue. Kev

Vampirella 1 was published in 1969. While an interesting choice, I don't think that magazines qualify as they were published under a different set of guidelines as comics were at the time. Magazines were allowed to be more risque than comics because they were not submitted to the Comics Code Authority. Certainly it's success may or may not have influenced the regular comics publishers, but I get the impression that changing social values had just as much of an impact on things. Especially since Gaines and EC were no longer a problem the surviving publishers had no problem asking for the CCA to revise the rules on horror and violence in comics. Kev

I'd be more inclined to say that ASM 121-122 are the real end of the Silver Age rather than the beginning of the bronze. However I do remember people were trying to push ASM 101 (first Morbius) as the beginning of the Bronze Age. Not that I agree with that. No I would have to say the bronze age began for DC with Green Lantern/Green Arrow 76 (although House of Secrets 92 is also a good candidate) and for Marvel it began with Conan 1. Why Conan? Why not? - anti-hero (followed later by the Punisher and Wolverine) - sex (while only implied, sex was really confined to the undergrounds and later the independants) - fantasy - violence - horror (monsters appear in early every issue) - spawned a zillion knockoff comics from nearly every company, including his own spinoff magazine - spun off into two successful motion pictures Sure Conan has since faded off into oblivion, but look at what happened to poor Barry Allen and Hal Jordan - the silver age icons who have faded away to be replaced by variations on their image. And who is to say that Conan could not be successfully relaunched now? Marvel made terrible mistakes with the character (manga conan?) before the let the license fade into oblivion. I had many conversations with people just this last weekend at the Toronto show who fondly remember the character and wish that someone would do the character again "right". That includes the artist who did that Spider-Man/Daredevil one-shot from a few weeks ago. He would love to get a shot at doing some Conan comics. Kev