yoddler

I don't have a great scanner, so a quick phone pic instead...

You're also missing my point: HISTORY states that the reason DC went ahead and published BB60 is because of the positive reception it received from BB54. 54 begat 60. There is a direct correlation and connection between these two books. Could someone have independently decided hey, let's do a teen sidekick book and call it "Tween Titans" or "Prepubescent Titans" without BB54? Um, yeah they could have. (hint: they didn't). DC could have also published a book about a walking tree and a talking raccoon... Right. But since they could have, then BB54 isn't a prerequisite for BB60. I'm not exactly sure why we're arguing about this. I'm perfectly comfortable with anyone arguing that BB54 is a precursor, or part of the story, or part of the origin or whatever. I, too, think it's an important book. It just doesn't have the first appearance of the Teen Titans in it. You're right -- let's stop arguing about it and go grab a beer!

Really?

This was the original question. There can be no other answer than BB 60. The name Teen Titans did not exist prior to this. Despite 36 pages of evidence to the contrary, there is nothing to be debated here. The first time a group of heroes is referred to as the "Teen Titans" is BB 60. Question answered. Problem solved. What can be argued is whether the answer to this question matters or not. Maybe only "people who collect trademarks" care about such silly nonsense as official team names. Maybe BB 54 is the more important book, and maybe it will always be the more valuable book. Those are fun things to debate, but they are entirely separate discussions which have no bearing on the original question. Maybe the group of heroes that eventually went on to refer to themselves as the Teen Titans first appeared together in BB 54. Okay. That can be debated (although it is debatable due to Robin's use of the word "after" and most importantly - Wonder Girl). Doesn't change the fact that the Teen Titans did not exist until BB 60. Maybe a team existed, but the Teen Titans did not. I think sfcityduck makes some great points regarding the formation of the team, and the only obvious inaccuracy in his statements is when he refers to BB 60 as the second appearance of the Teen Titans. That's impossible due to the fact that the name did not even exist until that issue. As a Titans collector, I think 54 is a must have issue. If I could only have one? That's an extremely tough call, but I think I would have to choose 54 over 60. I'm probably biased because it's always been the more sought after issue, but I also really enjoy that particular story. This, of course, is a matter of opinion. But almost everything debated in this thread has been a matter of opinion presented as fact. The official team name matters because comic collectors love the details. Minutiae matters in this hobby, and to be fair, this is a fairly significant point. It also matters because of $$$, but money has been an extremely important part of comic book collecting for as long as I've been alive. This should come as no surprise, and it's not really as nefarious an aspect of this hobby as some would lead us to believe. You can always collect whatever floats your particular boat, regardless of value, CGC labels, etc. This is a great post. And it's a better conversation than the one we've been having! But perhaps beside the point. The question is not where the name The Teen Titans first appeared it is where the Teen Titans first appeared. If you are interested in the Chicago Cubs history you don't say they started in 1902 when the news papers coined the name "Cubs" or in 1907 when they officially took the name The Chicago Cubs. They were a team before that with a different name (The Chicago White Stockings) since 1876. Yes, and I agree with you! I just like the tenor and focus that conversation more than the splitting hairs over the same points ad nauseum we've been having... You can tell his POV is that of a collector, whereas this feels more like speculators gone wild... If this debate could have only been had in a bubble without the fact that the Teen Titans have been a hot property of late, I'd be less inclined to question motivations... Still for the most part, this thread has been civil and interesting, but not necessarily in the way I think each side had hoped it would be.

Huh. I could have sworn I read a post where you said you were looking for as many copies of BB60 as you could find... Ah well, wouldn't be the first time someone's attempted revisionist history, eh?

This was the original question. There can be no other answer than BB 60. The name Teen Titans did not exist prior to this. Despite 36 pages of evidence to the contrary, there is nothing to be debated here. The first time a group of heroes is referred to as the "Teen Titans" is BB 60. Question answered. Problem solved. What can be argued is whether the answer to this question matters or not. Maybe only "people who collect trademarks" care about such silly nonsense as official team names. Maybe BB 54 is the more important book, and maybe it will always be the more valuable book. Those are fun things to debate, but they are entirely separate discussions which have no bearing on the original question. Maybe the group of heroes that eventually went on to refer to themselves as the Teen Titans first appeared together in BB 54. Okay. That can be debated (although it is debatable due to Robin's use of the word "after" and most importantly - Wonder Girl). Doesn't change the fact that the Teen Titans did not exist until BB 60. Maybe a team existed, but the Teen Titans did not. I think sfcityduck makes some great points regarding the formation of the team, and the only obvious inaccuracy in his statements is when he refers to BB 60 as the second appearance of the Teen Titans. That's impossible due to the fact that the name did not even exist until that issue. As a Titans collector, I think 54 is a must have issue. If I could only have one? That's an extremely tough call, but I think I would have to choose 54 over 60. I'm probably biased because it's always been the more sought after issue, but I also really enjoy that particular story. This, of course, is a matter of opinion. But almost everything debated in this thread has been a matter of opinion presented as fact. The official team name matters because comic collectors love the details. Minutiae matters in this hobby, and to be fair, this is a fairly significant point. It also matters because of $$$, but money has been an extremely important part of comic book collecting for as long as I've been alive. This should come as no surprise, and it's not really as nefarious an aspect of this hobby as some would lead us to believe. You can always collect whatever floats your particular boat, regardless of value, CGC labels, etc. This is a great post. And it's a better conversation than the one we've been having!

Didn't you say you were currently hoarding BB60? Would also like to add that I too have concept, footnotes and history to fall back on... and an ad to sell $2 digital comics...

I'm going the say this again for like the fourth or fifth time: I OWN BOTH BOOKS. Would you like me to take a picture of them both with today's newspaper?

That's not what Robin says. That you have to make stuff up doesn't support your argument. Let's go to the videotape. So, try again. Oh, and still waiting for you to identify where in B&B 54 the Teen Titans first appears. Or are you really claiming that a text box after the story is their first appearance? The video tape shows you misquoted Robin. He says that team was set up after "Kid Flash, Aqualad and I helped the teenagers of Hatton Corners." And the conclusion of the adventure at Hatton Corners states: "A startling new team of DC heroes has triumphed!" This all does fit quite nicely with what DC said in the very first reprint of BB 54 and what it has said for the past 20 years of the BB 54 reprints in Archives, Showcase, on-line, and, I think you'll see next month, in the 50 Anniversary book. I'm going to say this for what I'm sure won't be the last time. I acknowledge that the universe at large, including corporate DC, considers B&B 54 the first appearance of the Teen Titans. Okay? My argument is that I think this will change once people realize that people like you can point to no single panel in 54 where the team is formed, let alone named. And when they realize that you simply make stuff up. For instance, you claim I misquoted Robin. First of all, I didn't quote him at all. So, you made that up. Second, I paraphrased him accurately--he says he set up the Teen Titans after helping the teenagers of Hatton Corners, which, as the asterisked footnote you omitted tells us, occurred in B&B 54. So, you made that up, too. And here's the thing, I don't need you to agree with me. You can even keep making stuff up if you want. You've made up the notion that anyone said anything about the trademark for the "Teen Titans" name when no one did. You've made up the idea that a text box at the conclusion of a story somehow established the creation of a brand new super-team. You've made up claims about what I say. Now, despite all that, some people are going to agree with you and say, "Hell, yeah, 54 is the first appearance of the Teen Titans! I love the part of their first appearance where the editor says, 'has triumphed!'" And other people are going to look at what's actually in that issue and say, "Where the hell is the phrase 'Teen Titans'? When do they decide to form a super-team? When do they actually form it?" And they'll realize, oh, mess, this is a prototype or something. I'm betting that the evidence I and others have put forward (like, actual in-continuity story panels in which Robin tells us things) will eventually overcome both the acknowledged current consensus in favor of 54 as well as the meta-textual evidence you've put forward (like, ambiguously worded editorial captions after the story ends). Still waiting for that page or panel the excited new owner of B&B 54 can turn to to revel in the awesome first appearance of the Teen Titans. You act like all this evidence is "new" -- as if you've suddenly discovered all of this amazing information -- but the hard truth is NOTHING you've shown is new. NOTHING you're basing your OPINION regarding BB54 is new. But the industry, the dealers, the actual publisher and owner of the Teen Titans all agree AND HAVE FOR DECADES, that BB54 is the first appearance and origin of the Teen Titans. And guess what, they've seen all the stuff you've seen... and they still choose BB54. Sorry, but DC has made it crystal clear their position is that BB54 is the first appearance and origin of the Teen Titans. And if I had to chose between the PUBLISHER or the opinion of a few posters in a forum with questionable motives... I go with my position -- a position based in STORY and HISTORY backed by the people who created and printed the very books in question, backed by the leaders in the collecting industry, backed by the owners of the very board where you've chosen to voice your opinion: BB54 is the first appearance and origin of the Teen Titans.

I work in publishing and from personal experience find it hard to believe that this was written up by some marketing person without regard to editorial continuity or approval -- especially from a company so concerned about its intellectual property catering to a obsessive and hardcore fan base. I do doubt that DC would let this fly if it wasn't the company line. The description alone I might buy, but the logo in the layouts? No way. As you said earlier in one of your posts, this was "said by DC themselves" -- if that argument is good enough for you, in this case it's also good enough for me. DC states TODAY that BB54 is the origin and first appearance -- which incidently has been accepted as fact for decades. Since the digital BB 60 isn't even available, I will concede the current, doctored version is the first digital appearance of the Teen Titans and that the words "teen titans" have to be digitally added to in order to enhance the illusion it's the first real appearance. 50 years after the fact, thanks to modern technology you now have your trademark. Congratulations. you act like I'm the one who went into the file and inserted the logo there, when in fact it was DC that made that decision and last time I checked, they're allowed to do whatever they want to their comics. Also if you'll recall it was never about the trademark in BB60 for me and I actually conceded this fact to you -- for me it's always been about the story and history of BB54 that to me makes it the first appearance of the Teen Titans. The only reason I shared the digital files here is that I thought it was an interesting and relevant choice that DC made to clearly state and highlight their position that BB54 is the origin and first appearance of the Teen Titans.

If 54 was never published, 60 would not have been published. Prove it. Sixty would not have been published with the reference to 54, true. But not published at all? Impossible to prove, but feel free to try. Well, I could say you can't disprove it either, but that would be an equally ridiculous and pointless request... And I'm not sure I understand your logic that the statement is true but impossible to prove? If it's true, then it's true. Fair enough, but missing the point, I think. I concede that B&B 60, which includes a direct reference to events in and after 54, could not have been published exactly the same way without 54. Could it EASILY have been published without that reference and still been virtually identical? Yeah. You're also missing my point: HISTORY states that the reason DC went ahead and published BB60 is because of the positive reception it received from BB54. 54 begat 60. There is a direct correlation and connection between these two books. Could someone have independently decided hey, let's do a teen sidekick book and call it "Tween Titans" or "Prepubescent Titans" without BB54? Um, yeah they could have. (hint: they didn't). DC could have also published a book about a walking tree and a talking raccoon...

I work in publishing and from personal experience find it hard to believe that this was written up by some marketing person without regard to editorial continuity or approval -- especially from a company so concerned about its intellectual property catering to a obsessive and hardcore fan base. I do doubt that DC would let this fly if it wasn't the company line. The description alone I might buy, but the logo in the layouts? No way. As you said earlier in one of your posts, this was "said by DC themselves" -- if that argument is good enough for you, in this case it's also good enough for me. DC states TODAY that BB54 is the origin and first appearance -- which incidently has been accepted as fact for decades.

This image is a screen capture from DC's web site. When you, I or any future comic book reader wants to download the digital version of BB54, this is the description DC has written: Also of interest, if you scroll through the digital pages of BB54, DC has decided to include the following logo on several interior pages: While not definitive, I do think these images should be part of the conversation going forward. Thoughts? See for yourself here: https://www.readdcentertainment.com/The-Brave-and-the-Bold-1955-1983-54/digital-comic/0868300545001

If 54 was never published, 60 would not have been published. Prove it. Sixty would not have been published with the reference to 54, true. But not published at all? Impossible to prove, but feel free to try. Well, I could say you can't disprove it either, but that would be an equally ridiculous and pointless request... And I'm not sure I understand your logic that the statement is true but impossible to prove? If it's true, then it's true.

Perfect. Make it so.

If 54 was never published, 60 would not have been published.

'Nuff said. You can argue and spin the 54 as desperately as you want, Duck. These three elements cannot be disputed. The team is completed and named in 60, and as indicated on the front cover, splash page and numerous references by DC themselves, it is the 1st appearance of the "original team". The Avengers argument has no merit as it meets all three of these requirements. The team is named, completed and indicated as such in the title. If anything, the Avengers argument STRENGTHENS the case for BB60. These elements you offer are not being disputed. They are fact, but that doesn't make 60 the beginning of the Teen Titans story. Which issue did DC first top-line their teen sidekicks together? And by that, I ask which issue did DC first allow these teen sidekicks the opportunity to carry and be the main characters of their own comic? BB54 was the first time. Ever. This is also fact. And as a direct result of 54, they decided to continue and further evolve the story in BB60. You cannot have 60 without 54. 54 begat 60.

Coulson's been a fan favorite of the movies and highlighted the connected nature of all the Marvel films before The Avengers... Well, him and Stan Lee...

I agree with you! #60 is the first issue a team calls itself the Teen Titans. It's the first issue of Wonder Girl as an original member of a team that first calls itself the Teen Titans. But is it the first issue in the story of the formation of that team? No. 54 is the first issue that begins the story of the Teen Titans. There would be no 60 if there was no 54. You cannot argue the connection between these two books. They are directly linked. 54 begat 60. Ok, we agree BB60 is the first appearance of Teen Titans. Now, if we want to track the event that lead to the formation then we can go back further than BB54 for sure. BB54 was an important event but not the first. BB53 for part and happened before BB54 obviously. BB53 could be "the first mention of aqualad, robin and Kid Flash knowing each other" BB54 could be "the first team-up of aqua-lad robin and Kid Flash." BB60 is the first appearance of the Teen Titans" If you read what I wrote, you'd see this is clearly not what I said. But if it makes you happy, you can say I said BB60 is the first appearance of the name Teen Titans.

You do know that wiki's BY DEFINITION are public community maintained sources of information, don't you? This settles nothing. And you're going to base this on a site that YOU DON'T KNOW maintains the information? If you're trying to sway me from my position, you'll have to do better.

I agree with you! #60 is the first issue a team calls itself the Teen Titans. It's the first issue of Wonder Girl as an original member of a team that first calls itself the Teen Titans. But is it the first issue in the story of the formation of that team? No. 54 is the first issue that begins the story of the Teen Titans. There would be no 60 if there was no 54. You cannot argue the connection between these two books. They are directly linked. 54 begat 60.

If you are going to get that technical then, the Teen Titans started due to the events in Detective Comics #38

It's true they could not have formed a team in BB60 if some of them hadn't met in BB54. But does that really make 54 the first appearance? Then I guess Superman 76 is the first appearance of JLA because they couldn't have made JLA without Superman and Batman meeting in Superman 76 and thus being in the same universe...? Just because people meet doesn't mean they form a team. Not until there actually is announced a team. And ... where it all began? It began earlier in 53 then... JLA began in....?? We cannot say Beatles began 4 years before they actually formed Beatles.. just because "some of the members met then and if they hadn't met, then there would be no Beatles..." True, they met earlier... their story shows that... but they did not form the Beatles until they actually did. You're agreeing it's true that the team in 60 couldn't have formed if they hadn't met in 54. Doesn't that in and of itself say something? My point is both 54 and 60 are two sides of the same coin -- one is the result and continuation of the other. I'll say it again: there would be no 60 if there wasn't a 54. For a Teen Titans completist and collector, 54 is where it begins. Would DC have published 60 if 54 hadn't been so well received? I think BB54 was an important event towards creating TT in BB60. If no BB53 and BB54 then there may never have formed the idea to create TT in BB60. However, BB54 itself is no guarantee there would ever be a TT. So important to the foundation in BB60, but not sufficient. Just like Paul and John Lennon's first meeting was important to the later formation of the Beatles, but it did not guarantee that they later would actually go ahead and form the band. It's only not sufficient in your opinion. Honestly if you think the story of the Beatles only begins when they start calling themselves the Beatles, then that may even be worse than saying #60 is where the story of the Teen Titans begins This is the chicken and the egg. The Kobayashi Maru.

Uh .. no. It started with three teenage heroes. And it ended with 5 or 6 after hitting a height of 11 or 12. Ok... I guess one way to determine when the TT started is to see who DC says were the original founding members. If Wonder Girl was not a founding member - then perhaps BB54 could be the first appearance of TT. If Wonder Girl was a founding original member, then it cannot be 54, but must be 60 which is the first appearance. According to DC Wonder Girl was a founding member..... Wonder girl was a founding member... hmmmm... Where does that leave us and what do we know? 1. We know that Wonder Girl did NOT found any group in BB54. 2. We know that Wonder Girl was part of TT in BB60. That leaves two options. Either TT was founded in BB60 or it was founded after BB54 but before BB60. ____ For me, BB60 was the first appearance of the TT. 53 tells the story of how Ringo, and Paul meet... 54 how they got to know John and played music together. BB60 tells the story of when they actually decided they clicked so well they formed the Beatles. But I understand the confusion fully. CGC labels... just like people still thing Hulk271 is the first appearance of the little fury critter... and because DC have conflicting messages in this regards. But overall I think it is fairly clear that the most logical conclusion is that it is 60. Wonder Girl is a founding member and must be in BB60 then, there is no formal group in 53 or 54, only that some of them knew each other. If you're a casual Beatles listener, sure. They began when they started calling themselves the Beatles. If you're a hardcore collector and fan, you can bet those early recordings are part of the Beatles catalogue and story. If you're a completionist, you can bet those early recordings are even very sought after. As a collector, I see 54 being the first and most important beginning issue for the Teen Titans. If you absolutely need a logo and a name, if you need every single original member all together in the same panel, then 60 is the issue for you.