427Impaler

Wow, thinks getting hot around here! i do like threads that challenge my opinions and this one certainly has. If I had two identical books in front of me, one had rough edges from wear and one had been roughed up to hide trimming I may not know the deifference and would buy them at a price based on current condition, so I’m not sure it would matter to me as a buyer. i have to say I was uneasy with the idea of someone damaging the edges to get a blue label from CGC, until I read the post I just quoted above. What is the difference between scrapping off glue or paint to get a blue label and roughing the edges? Sounds like a very similar intent and action? Hmmmm

Agree with most of what has been said but considering it will always have a restored label you could have a someone get all the tape off and do a proper restoration. If done by CCS I would imagine you retain the sig authentication also. Better looking book, higher grade, without the evil tape and same label 2 cents

It was an interesting challenge. This is one book that revealed its story as it progressed, as Jeremy said someone had been tracing the front cover images so much that they became mostly detached, and in an effort to save the book they put string in the indentations and then spread glue over the book, followed by two and some places three layers of tape. Managed to get everything off, pieced it back together and stabilized the paper. Not as cosmetically pleasing as I would like, but it won’t be deteriorating further and now a great reader or basis for resto. here is the tracing damage: and the tape and paper delamination

Great thread for discussion. I do conservation so of course I would be a staunch supporter of it. That being said value would depend on the extent of the conservation done, much like resto work. De-acidification done properly is IMO the best thing you can do to a book, removes contaminants and buffers against further degradation. A book with only that stage done should not be too far off blue label I would hope. The other end of the spectrum is a book with a rebuilt spine, pieces reattached, staples replaced, and a bunch of tear seals and reinforcements, this book would if done well still qualifies for a conservation grade. A book like that should be right around the same value as a restored book if I’m the buyer.

Still waiting for third party testing but in the downtime I had the opportunity to work on one of my favourite GA covers. Here are the before and after shots, in the after pic the book has not been dry cleaned or pressed. Nasty surgical tape came off uneventfuly, and tide lines were reduced. front cover before and after back before and after

aardvark88 has given me permission to show the results of treating his comic cover on the forum. The book has had no mechanical cleaning and no brush work while in the baths. It also has not been pressed prior to these pics. These are scans that have had zero retouching other than cropping. On another note, I am in discussion with a conservator/museum curator in the UK, who has been trying to remove lignin from artifacts but has had no success. We should have definitive confirmation of the success of the treatment shortly.

No problem if you want to pm me about sending something. Three spots currently taken, 7 to go.

As long as I’m not bending any rules, anyone who wants to send me a cover I’ll do it no charge, you pick up the shipping. First ten people who post here qualify. I’m near Vancouver Canada and shipping a low value cover/book should be about 10 bucks each way.

That is entirely possible. Just de-acidification can lift ink depending on water temp, length of bath. Every book is a little different with paper type, ink set, type of fixative, etc. Most likely it is that part of the process that does it. The de-acidification is done last, and sometimes you will see some slight tint to the water that is yellow and you know ink is lifting. The initial two baths never have that tint, as areal test i left a book in for 48 hours. Expecting to find goo in the bath the next day the book was surprisingly undamaged. i was going to through this out there, but not sure if it breaks any forum rules. Allow ten people to send a cover/book to get their opinion in hand. If that doesn’t break the rules I would do it no charge.

The waves are caused by allowing it to air dry without any pressing or weighted drying, just wanted to check for any color loss without the pressing variable.

Also, here are results of the aging test without de-acidification. After 2 48 hour stretches the control piece was brittle at 4 folds and also broke horizontally while being tested. The treated paper just began to separate at ten folds. Promising results that indicate possible reduction in lignin content. Have to wait for chemistry for confirmation. i do understand fully the concern of this process being done without disclosure. There are those people who only care about profit. If this really can prolong the life of paper artifacts, I won’t hesitate to do every book in my personal collection just to not worry what they are doing while in their slabs and bags. I am sure lots of us have had it happen where you crack a book or pull it from a Mylar and find it has degraded since the last time it was out. Either way, this is not available for use right now. Strictly experimentation and food for discussion

Just a quick update, here is a mid grade comic that has some yellowing. Relying on scans this time to take out my sketchy picture taking variable, scans are untouched and straight out of a Canon MG5500. Also have some updates as far as brittleness, this is unscientific at this point but working on a Subby 1 that had heavy tape and required reinforcement on three edges with Japanese paper, after treatment the book no longer requires the reinforcement. This is no magic bullet as the further the deterioration the less effect this has on the paper. Still waiting on chemical analysis to validate the hypothesis but very hopeful that this is something that can be a positive thing in historic and collectible paper artifacts.

I went back to the original pics and I think I would blame it on my poor picture taking. Before pic was a slightly blurry when magnified and that combined with upload compression hid some defects. I cropped before and after pics here for comparison, have another cover to test and use the scanner this time.

Next round of testing, slight change from the last test. As the process is part of a de-acidification the question came up is the resistance from age related deterioration due to the new process or is it partially or completely due to the de-acidification? Now we will find out conclusively, two new pieces were selected from a 1954 Atlas comic loose back cover. Both were selected from the middle of the page, both had top and bottom trim to equalize any edge differences. One was untouched and the other treated with the lignin chelation and no added de-acidification buffer. Both will undergo one week at 80 degree Celsius at 60 percent humidity. Flipped each day and checked every 48 hours. While we are having this done we also thought “let’s see if we can answer the question does pressing damage a comic?“. So we cut a book in half, and pressed one half. There are lots of ways to press a book so please don’t immediately go on the attack. My feeling is the experienced excellent pressers out there do not over cook books and are not doing any damage. On the other hand I have spoken to many Newbie pressers who theough a book into the press for 2-4 minutes at 180 degrees. Hell I smoked some books learning what not to do. For this test we pressed the book on both sides for one minute fourth five seconds at 160 degrees. Both pieces are undergoing the same aging test. More of a fun exercise than anything conclusive, what do you guys think will happen????? Here is pics of the test subjects and another mid grade white cover for fun. new test subjects The Dell pressing test book we murdered Another paper improvement

Third and final update on this round of testing. The untreated piece is one fold brittle after another 48 hours. The treated piece was folded completely in half twenty times before it finally split. This is not a purely cosmetic fix like other methods of lightening paper, this also makes paper more resistant to acid hydrolysis, which presents as browning of paper and brittleness. Next test is a chemical analysis of what is coming out of the paper, this is done by evaporating the solutions and doing an analysis of the residue. Sourcing a research chemist at his point to do a complete study. More aging is being done in different types of paper to confirm results with repeatability. after three sessions; fold results: Initial pic and post testing pic:

Results after another 48 hours of accelerated aging. At this point the untreated piece is showing signs of distress with some wrinkling and at the mid point is now two fold brittle, the treated piece still holding color well and does not crack even at a four fold test. This was also done at the mid point and keep in mind this is the outside edge, which generally ages quicker than the Center area of the book. Back in the heat/humidity torture test, see what another 48 hours gives us, as long as the untreated piece doesn’t catch fire 😁

Take if OK to ship to Canada

I have had a few people contact me curious about what’s going on here, so I will elaborate a bit on how this works. It may be a little dry but I’ll keep it short. Some background: In about 1850 the method to make paper pulp changed. The old method was to mechanically “beat” it into a pulp, when someone discovered it was simpler and cheaper to chemically treat wood pulp to break it down to make paper. The drawback is that the chemical method left something in that the mechanical method did not; LIGNIN Lignin is what speeds paper breakdown starting with yellowing and ending with the paper becoming brittle and disintegrating. In 1990ish, new post pulping methods removed most of the lignin and printed matter from then is long lasting. Paper whitening has been around a long time, generally involving bleaches and chloramines, peroxide products, and other bleaching methods such as UV rays. Despite these methods having a negative effect on paper lots of conservators still use them in their practice. I have ZERO interest in any of these less than desirable methods. So, I thought why not just remove the lignin from existing printed matter? Sounds reasonable, I thought, and so commences the research. This has been attempted a few times, only modest success which involves incredibly expensive chemicals, and some that are on a restricted list and inaccessible. I got lucky, while working with this idea I found a process while working on de-acidification that seems to have worked. It qualifies as aqueous bath, which is allowed in Conserved grade. That is great, but the really great thing is if this passes some chemistry testing (upcoming) it will allow our collectibles and other paper objects to last for multiple of their current lifetimes. Whitening is nice, even better if it doesn’t hurt paper, if it extends e life of paper then that really would be something

Some initial testing has been completed, results look good. Test is artificial aging, which is done in a hydrating oven at 85 degrees Celsius at 60% humidity. Three different samples are being tested over three weeks. The first sample is a 50’s comic cover with yellowing turning tan at edges. This is the type of testing done by Library of Congress. It is not an exact measure of aging, but currently it is the closest for this comparison. The aging takes about a week, these are the results after 48 hours. The page was aged but not brittle and withstand ten fold test without separating. The pics show only the beginning of the aging but after 48 hours the untreated paper was four fold brittle while the treated after four folds barely began to break color. After a week we will see some final conclusions but so far thumbs up! 1. Treated and untreated before aging after 48 hours four fold test untreated four fold test treated

I’ll pile on and agree with much of what has been said. Press? Yes! But with a book like this pick a very reliable presser, who will likely give it a conservative press so the CBC’s don’t look totally flattened, but will tame down the waves and creases. 3.0, shot at 3.5

Sorry it took a while to get back to you. I haven’t noticed any smell from this process or from my de-acidification. I know it was common practice to douse paper with isopropyl alcohol prior to de-acidification at one time, that tends to leave an odour. It also makes inks prone to bleeding so it’s not part of my practice. Interior pages also have no signs of ink bleed or fade. The effects are not as pronounced on interior pages

Thank you for your post and I share your concerns. There are other ways of achieving the kind of results shown but they involve bleaches (chlorinates and peroxides) or aqueous exposure to UV rays. Both have consequences on the long term life of the paper. Also notable that most conservation labs use these methods despite the risk factors. This may or may not be a better option, testing will be the deciding factor. So far we have a neutral affect on PH which a a good sign, strength and long term have to be determined (paper aging can be done without waiting). I get the concerns expressed here, there have been a lot of attempts by unscrupulous people to make money with questionable practices. If this works as I hope it would become an optional part of de-acidification. Pricing would likely be close to a wash (pun) financially. De-acidification itself removes some yellowing as the acids leach out, this just helps the process chelate yellowing: The only problem with leaving books “untreated” is that brittleness is an inevitability due to the amount of lignan and alum fixative. Done correctly, de-acdification should leave little or no smell and texture difference. All books that I submit go to CGC with notes outlining everything I have done to them, I currently have a Timely Subby 1 there with full conservation disclosed.

You still don’t get it. My intent is to prevent destruction of a collectible, and removing the yellowing in a non destructive way is a benefit to the paper. I won’t get into a long drawn out chemistry disposition here, but ultimately very comic produced will require a conservation process at some time. Paper even under stringent conditions will deteriorate eventually due to its less than desirable chemistry: I don’t know where you jumped on the band wagon that I’m trying to deceive CGC? Or put this out there as a way to trick someone. What you consider restoration is your business, all I said is this process falls under the category of conservation as far as CGC denotes it. I do disagree with your initial post as it was derogatory and incorrect. You attempted to paint me as someone trying to deceive and said I was “bleaching” books. Not the case.

I don’t need to protest and tell you that you’re wrong. It might have been more civil and intellectual to ask me what my intent was and what my qualifications are. That way you wouldn’t have made a post that couldn’t be incorrect in so many aspects. Contempt prior to investigation. i have been collecting comics since 1969, not bragging, just letting you know I am no punk kid. I have a lengthy academic background, and have recently retired from business management after 30 long years. For the last decade I have been studying conservation, working with and speaking to conservators across the country, through that I understand we have a long way to go when it comes to paper conservation. Library of Congress has tried many way to preserve their many books and are still actively seeking new methods to do so. Problem is it is a still growing science and there is no magic bullet. i have been working on a method of chelating for a while, as I stated right at the beginning this is not a eureka moment, third party testing would have to confirm that the paper is not being comprised by this process. My main and only mantra is to make the collectibles we love last longer. I don’t do restoration at all, only de-acidification, mending, and low temperature pressing. I am sorry you find this thread distasteful, I was excited that there may be a way to make books look better and last longer. At this stage of my life Im not looking to make a fast buck or even big bucks, I’m doing something I love.

Pressing is certainly a great way to remove defects and improve the appearance of a comic. The real problem is not knowing how a book was pressed, because of that you don't know how hot the book got. Too much heat and acid hydrolysis begins, shortening the cellulose chains and accelerating brittleness. Pressing can be done just as effectively with safe temperatures and still get the same results and I am pretty sure most of the well known pressers are well aware of that. So I see nothing wrong with asking your presser exactly how hot do his books get when he presses. if they don't know or wont tell, go with your gut.