VintageComics

Using that line of reasoning, nobody really knows anything.

That's the first thing that caught my eye but I have yet to spot a mottled, brown strand of carpet in the unrestored pic. The restored pic is full of them, even just next to the flash where the light is the brightest.

You really think so? Dan's original pic has a rug that it mottled - even in the small area under the slab you can see specks of brown. On the second pic I don't see any mottled, brown spots. There are some 'shadows' but I don't think they are actually brown spots. Could Dan have more than one room in his house? Of course but I'm not saying Dan isn't the person who now owns the book (and I don't personally care). I'm just saying that those two rugs don't look the same to me. We have a rug just like that one in the 2nd pic. Maybe I'm the submitter. Well, I'm not. But I could be. But I'm not. Promise.

You are like my soul mate.

You really think so? Dan's original pic has a rug that it mottled - even in the small area under the slab you can see specks of brown. On the second pic I don't see any mottled, brown spots. There are some 'shadows' but I don't think they are actually brown spots.

Solid sensationalism.

Imagine what a trimmed Action #7 would be worth!

to the whole post but especially to the bolded part concerning this thread. I'll agree to that. As the market and the black market evolves, certification needs to evolve in providing confidence.

This is exactly what I've been asking. This discussion between you and I hasn't been about who is better than CGC because there isn't. If you don't use CGC (or any established, credible 3rd party service) then what are your options? You are either relying on someone else or yourself. Those are your options. In other words, unless you have someone spectacular in your back pocket (like Fishler) there are no other viable options. How much would one have to (theoretically) pay Fishler per hour for resto detection on books he isn't selling you? This sounds like a question for kav!

This is exactly what I've been asking. This discussion between you and I hasn't been about who is better than CGC because there isn't. If you don't use CGC (or any established, credible 3rd party service) then what are your options? You are either relying on someone else or yourself. Those are your options. In other words, unless you have someone spectacular in your back pocket (like Fishler) there are no other viable options.

Your car sucks. Ouch, well I actually think its the best vehicle I have ever bought. Only problem is the Stealerships and what they want to charge you for maintenance and service. Luckily there is a BMW Master Mechanic that has an Indy shop in Monterey, that has increase the ownership experience tenfold. I'm just teasing although I was a Benz guy for over a decade. Finding a good, honest tech is the best thing you can do if you like cars. It makes all the difference.

And what does a unicorn fart smell like?

There is no better teacher than experience. At this point who has the experience say that they've graded 10,000 or 100,000 or 1,000,000 comics? At this point there is likely no organization that will be able to do it as efficiently as a well established certification company. As an interesting side note, I've been told that Stephen Fishler of Metropolis is the best resto detection dealer in the business bar none (by some very credible sources). How many people have a reputation like that.

When the first Action #1 sold for $6000 people said it was impossible. When the first AF #15 sold for $50,000 people said it was impossible. This was all pre CGC. This is a tangent discussion and you have no way of proving that point. To stay on topic though, if CGC was not around another certification / authentication party would be doing it because it's too big of a vacuum not to have it. Everything in your above post is Read the sentence you quoted. Read your response. Read them both again. Explain how your comments relate AT ALL to what you just quoted. Every few years someone would say that prices have tapped out and then a new record would be set. First it was a $1K barrier, then a $10K barrier then a $100K barrier, etc. all without CGC. Now you are (for whatever reason) arguing that these prices would never have hit the same heights without CGC. We have no way of knowing but there already has been precedent of record prices increasing from the 1950's onward both before and after CGC. So we have no way of knowing for sure. I could argue that these record prices were reached because of movie and media exposure and it would just be a hypothetical discussion because I have no way of proving it.

I'm not suggesting CGC hasn't done good things for the hobby, I'm merely suggesting that their detection efforts are lacking. Everyone's detection efforts are lacking when compared to a perfect, 100% average. The question is how does CGC stack up to everyone that is not CGC?

You're a rebel. Like me.

I'm not entirely sure what CGC has to do with it. Let's say CGC went belly up tomorrow. Then what? High grade Silver and Gold will still sell for thousands of dollars, tens of thousands even. Do you think people will stop micro-trimming because CGC folded? If anything they will do it more. This thread pertains to CGC HG Silver & Gold will NEVER reach the same hammer prices raw that they have with CGC. The same? No. But that doesn't mean they won't sell for a lot of money. You seem to be equating micro-trimming with something that happens because of CGC. Micro-trimming will still happen if CGC folds tomorrow. Just because an FF 1 in NM "only" sells for $25K instead of $125K does not mean there will be no financial incentive to monkey with it. I'm not sure that we disagree. I'm trying to understand why consumers would continue to submit their books to CGC if CGC can't consistently detect trimming. If CGC = raw in regard to micro-trimming, then wouldn't consumers rather pay 25K for a NM FF 1 than 125K? Because even if they can't detect it all the time, they can detect it a lot more consistently than 99.9% of the collecting community. 99.9%? C'mon now. Please don't just make mess up. I'm really not making up that number. How many people in this hobby do you think can reliably tell if a book was micro-trimmed? Honest question. Give me your opinion. First I'd have to know how many people are in this hobby..... No you don't need to know how many people there are in this hobby to guess what percentage can't detect resto. All you need to do is agree with the reality that most average collectors suck at detecting resto and especially trimming unless they've spent a lot of time studying it. Just read how many "is this trimmed" threads there are on this forum, sometimes started by board members who have spent many years here where trimming is often explained and discussed in detail. Major, experienced dealers miss it all the time.

When the first Action #1 sold for $6000 people said it was impossible. When the first AF #15 sold for $50,000 people said it was impossible. This was all pre CGC. This is a tangent discussion and you have no way of proving that point. To stay on topic though, if CGC was not around another certification / authentication party would be doing it because it's too big of a vacuum not to have it.

I didn't say you were anti CGC and I know your story of acquiring that collection well. My question is, why is the concept of resto check a joke when we are talking about a few specific incidents among 3 Million books?

When you are have a 98% chance that a book is restored or a 98% chance a book is not restored, which one instills more confidence? If those were true proven numbers I'd say you got me. But you and I both know they aren't. I'm maintaining thata those numbers are fairly accurate based on my 10 years of submitting books to CGC. Your numbers make no sense. How can you prove one way or the other that a book is ACTUALLY trimmed? Your arguments are ridiculously anti establishment. The choices are not a) indifference b) stop using CGC The choices are a) use CGC b) don't use CGC And the my examples are slightly different than your examples, whether you want to admit it or not. ----------------------------- 2nd, nearly every major international dealer on the continent misses resto but when they do it's CGC that is generally going to catch it. If CGC is going to miss resto or micro trimming than I think it is a safe argument to make that almost everyone else will too. I'd certainly rather have a world where a company that is set up for and designed for catching the majority of resto (somewhere approaching 100%) than in a world where I am relying on the word of someone who doesn't specialize in catching resto.

When you are have a 98% chance that a book is restored or a 98% chance a book is not restored, which one instills more confidence? If those were true proven numbers I'd say you got me. But you and I both know they aren't. I'm maintaining thata those numbers are fairly accurate based on my 10 years of submitting books to CGC.

When you are have a 98% chance that a book is restored or a 98% chance a book is not restored, which one instills more confidence?

Your car sucks.

I'm no different then you. When I got back into comics back in 2002 or 2003 I had no idea what CGC was. The big picture is what matters if people want to throw around sweeping criticisms. Otherwise we lose all perspective. But you are different. You knew what it was like trying to buy books before CGC so you compare that experience to your experience now that you have CGC. That's fine, and I believe you when you say it was better than before. I'm just coming in with a "fresh set of eyes" and see things differently. I can't say "well it's a lot better than what we had before". I can only say "this is what we have?" Well, as I've said several times it was a crapshoot. Everyone graded differently (they still do), numerous people did not disclose restoration (many still don't) and before the internet often you'd even have someone ship you the wrong book, never mind the wrong grade. As far as buying without actually having to be there in person, 3rd party authentication has changed the way people buy and sell on the internet. It's brought a form of authentication and standardization that was unavailable any other way.

I'm no different then you. When I got back into comics back in 2002 or 2003 I had no idea what CGC was. The big picture is what matters if people want to throw around sweeping criticisms. Otherwise we lose all perspective.