VintageComics

Why do you continue to attack me?

Alright, let's not paint all 2 Million books that CGC have graded with the same brush. Just like you, or me or anyone will, they will remember the books or even defects if they stand out in their minds for whatever reason. That doesn't mean in any way that they remember all books. I remember most books that have passed through my hands. Not always immediately but I remember defects on books, etc and eventually can recall most of them. Most of the time though, I'd call to ask about a particular book I had graded and they couldn't recall it unless it was within a few hours of seeing the book. There are always going to be books that stand out in memory. That doesn't mean they remember every book. I was unable to find Funny Animals by Crumb on either the GCD or the census. Is it a rare book? Sometimes certain books just stick out for whatever reason. I do believe Mark has an above average memory though. It's just a part of who he is. The guy is a virtual encyclopedia when it comes to comics.

Nobody doubts that an honest, ethical, knowledgeable dealer can. There are many dealers who are just as good at grading as CGC but dealers are not the ones that are advertising themselves as graders or appraisers with a heavy marketing budget. The general public is going to go with whoever portrays themselves as the standard to follow.

Joseph, was this book purchased in a CGC purple holder initially? The reason I ask is because it's not CGC's or the insider's (or the resto remover's for that matter) fault that the market puts an extremely unrealistic and irrationally low value on restored books, opening up the gap and therefore the market for people to remove restoration. Unfortunately, that fault can squarely be placed on the shoulders of the open market and it's lack of education and understanding of how to understand restoration and how to value a book based on the amount and type of resto. If a book goes cheap because everyone shuns resto even though it's just one dot of colour touch that is the real shame. I respectfully disagree Roy, and a lot of the reasoning pertains to the particular context of the situation. Suffice it to say that if the book had dislcosed "colour touch removed" - and in this particular case, there was no reason it couldn't except for the reason that the people involved knew full well about the repercussions - the book would NEVER have attained the same price. Ironically, it's evolved to the point where the "apparent" designation better suits blue label with hidden and/or deliberately undisclosed work than on a purple label. I get where you're coming from. My point was that if the market had valued the book with a dot of colour touch at the same value as it did with the colour touch removed (where it realistically should have been valued - that is how I would have valued it) then you wouldn't have that price gap and therefore that ability to remove colour touch and increase the price. This is just wrong. The graders job is to grade the book as it is in hand. Period. If a book had a tear seal that is unsealed, or a piece added to the corner, and the piece is removed, the book should be graded "as is". You don't want graders speculating as to what might have been done to a book, with absolutely zero evidence present. I agree with you. I think that Joseph may be implying that CGC knew that the resto was removed and should have pro-actively notated it on the label but I do agree that the grader should really only knows what they see in front of them - ie the condition of the book and paper and nothing really more.

Joseph, was this book purchased in a CGC purple holder initially? The reason I ask is because it's not CGC's or the insider's (or the resto remover's for that matter) fault that the market puts an extremely unrealistic and irrationally low value on restored books, opening up the gap and therefore the market for people to remove restoration. Unfortunately, that fault can squarely be placed on the shoulders of the open market and it's lack of education and understanding of how to understand restoration and how to value a book based on the amount and type of resto. If a book goes cheap because everyone shuns resto even though it's just one dot of colour touch that is the real shame. I respectfully disagree Roy, and a lot of the reasoning pertains to the particular context of the situation. Suffice it to say that if the book had dislcosed "colour touch removed" - and in this particular case, there was no reason it couldn't except for the reason that the people involved knew full well about the repercussions - the book would NEVER have attained the same price. Ironically, it's evolved to the point where the "apparent" designation better suits blue label with hidden and/or deliberately undisclosed work than on a purple label. I get where you're coming from. My point was that if the market had valued the book with a dot of colour touch at the same value as it did with the colour touch removed (where it realistically should have been valued - that is how I would have valued it) then you wouldn't have that price gap and therefore that ability to remove colour touch and increase the price.

Joseph, was this book purchased in a CGC purple holder initially? The reason I ask is because it's not CGC's or the insider's (or the resto remover's for that matter) fault that the market puts an extremely unrealistic and irrationally low value on restored books, opening up the gap and therefore the market for people to remove restoration. Unfortunately, that fault can squarely be placed on the shoulders of the open market and it's lack of education and understanding of how to understand restoration and how to value a book based on the amount and type of resto. If a book goes cheap because everyone shuns resto even though it's just one dot of colour touch that is the real shame.

I don't get this either. Can someone explain the physics of how pressing would cause properly placed (not offset) staples to be driven into the book? How will a press create a force from the side to push a staple through the spine into the book? I find the Litch groin bump more plausible. The theory goes that if a cover has some bounce to it (large radius curve at the spine) and is pressed down onto the interior the spine might actually move back relative to the interior pages. Take any round ball. Large radius. Small radius. Soft. Hard. Now, press down on it. WHEN are you EVER going to see the sides bow inward? The force put on the top/bottom of the rounded object cause a bowing effect of the sides, and there is nothing to stop the staple from moving with it, as far as I can theorize. The sides bow outward. The interior pages are attached to the spine. The theory goes that if the interior pages don't move towards the left as the spine moves leftward (meaning the interior pages are stationary while the spine bows outward) you get your staple pull.

I don't get this either. Can someone explain the physics of how pressing would cause properly placed (not offset) staples to be driven into the book? How will a press create a force from the side to push a staple through the spine into the book? I find the Litch groin bump more plausible. The theory goes that if a cover has some bounce to it (large radius curve at the spine) and is pressed down onto the interior the spine might actually move back relative to the interior pages. Personally, I've never seen it but I suppose it is possible.

Really? No. But does it matter? Yes. What you post matters.

62 from where I'm looking.

Really?

Again, another great suggestion that would help both seller and buyer. (thumbs u

The "original bags" thing is exactly right! But my attic-find sellers have only ever heard of one grade... "near mint". They're mint in bags. Yes ma'am, but what are they like outside of the bags? I'm afraid to touch them, I don't know.

Sure, but what they do understand is a universally accepted scale as opposed to a scale that is only understood by a very small group of select people. Bedrock's experience mirrors my own and I can't believe I didn't use that example as I'm constantly needing to translate letters for numbers when someone calls me selling books but is not a lifelong collector.

I care about the "why" in every discussion, not the "what". That's why it's a discussion.

Nope, I was trying to show that it's because of tradition that we do it and it may have it's place for now. And to me the numerical grades make things easier, and certainly more easy for the average person to understand since people understand 1-10 much easier than G/GVG/VG/VGF etc. Again, I'm not being pushy about it. Just discussing it. Like MCMiles said, I personally don't care either way as I can see the appeal for both sides (equivocating spoiler) but I tend to favour the numerical one for obvious reasons (non-equivocating spoiler).

And they don't count, so yep, nobody uses it. My bro in law used to work for Bridgestone/Firestone. They had offices in Italy (I believe), Japan and America. Their largest hindrance between offices was language. Even though they worked for the same company, the language slowed progress down. There is always going to be a progression towards simplification to gain broader appeal. The Metric system is one of those progressions.

Does anyone actually use the metric system in their day to day life? If someone asks me how tall I am or how much I weight I still don't reference kilos or meters and if I did people would probably would look at me funny. Carry on. Pretty much no-one uses the metric system... other than the 6.6 billion people who don't live in the U.S. England too. And my analogy of the Metric/Imperial conversion was not meant to be a dig at any country, it was just a very real life analogy that would help my point in a way many people would understand.

Does anyone actually use the metric system in their day to day life? If someone asks me how tall I am or how much I weight I still don't reference kilos or meters and if I did people would probably would look at me funny. Carry on. More people use it now than they did 30+ years ago when they switched over.

The named grades preceded Overstreet publishing anything, and it seems fairly clear they derived from some of the same designations coins were using. Where else would we get "Mint" from for paper...minting is what they do to coins. I think my point is that if someone had come up with a numerical scale 50 years ago, nobody would be arguing that we need to find alphabetic equivalents. It's the same reason most countries have switched from Imperial measuring standards to Metric ones. Simplicity, ease of conversion, etc, etc. Metric is not evil but it is portrayed to be as such by those that don't like changing to it. Once the change is made it's day and night easier.

You're not even reading what I post any more, you're just making your mind up about me and reacting emotionally rather than keeping to the discussion at hand. I believe that there is a time for equivocating and a time for not and once you've whittled something down to it's simplest form there is no more room for equivocation. That's why I brought up the Chinese Wall several times, but nobody that I was able to read in this thread has really discussed it. I wrote this: Do you not have anything constructive to add or answer to it or do you just want to call me names? It's basically a question. I asked it because I'm not a lawyer and I don't know the answer.

Not to mention the fact that the alpha scale makes zero intuitive sense to an outsider/newbie. 2.0 out of 10.0? Yep, easy to see why that grade sucks from an objective standpoint. Explaining why "good" actually means bad, or getting the casual seller to not use "good" to describe a book in decent condition is much tougher. I am all for CGC only using the numerical value. The only reason Overstreet did not go with a numerical scale from the start is likely because he hadn't thought of it as the old system slowly evolved out of phrases. There still was a numerical system in place, it was just hidden. The values were reflected with numerical multiples. 1-3-6 or 1-5-10 or 1-3-6-8 or whatever they were. Most systems evolve over time towards "better" systems. The grading system is what it is, and it is basically a secret code that grew out of a bunch of nerds grading comics before they were worth much more than cover price. Nothing stays the same.

Take a look at what you wrote and really think about it. The Senior Consignment Director at Heritage developed the methodology CGC uses. And their (newly acquired) Restoration Expert knows Heritage intimately, having worked for and with them for years. You see no advantages for a consignment to reach its top possible CGC grade, getting the most bang for Heritage, and have that final hammer amount fed to dataminers for mass consumption? Take a moment and just let it percolate a bit. A potential "conflict of interest" may present itself. Step back from it, tilt your head, squint your eyes, and look again. Did Steve develop the methodology or help develop it? My understanding is that a lot of people were involved in it including most major dealers. I don't understand how Matt's professional relationship with Heritage affects CGC graders. I might be missing something obvious. There are plenty of people that know how to grade well and detect resto well (plenty relatively speaking, within the hobby). I think I am one of them, after learning about it for years through conversations, the chat forum, etc. Does that mean that the system is slanted in my favour? I suppose if you're good at what you do they would be. I'm going to need you to spell it out for me, Dav.

Congratulations. Congratulations for breaking my heart Congratulations for tearing it all apart Congratulations you finally did succeed Congratulations for leaving me in need This morning I looked out my window and found A bluebird singing but there was no one around At night I lay alone in my bed With an image of you goin' around in my head Congratulations for bringing me down Congratulations now I'm sorrow bound Congratulations you got a good deal Congratulations how good you must feel I guess that I must have loved you more than I ever knew My world is empty now cause it don't have you And if I had just one more chance to win your heart again I would do things differently but what's the use to pretend Congratulations for making me wait Congratulations now it's too late Congratulations you came out on top Congratulations you never did know when to stop Congratulations

Congratulations.