comicinvestor-migration

Dracula 10 is a great example, but Hobby doesn't take a poke at Spidey until #239, and is even noted as such in the OS Guide. Actually on that note, I find the overall cover/story appeal of ASM 239 to be higher than 238. That "ripping the straw dummy" cover never did it for me.

Pimpy, you seem to be under the mistaken impression that any new Marvel Bronze Age books stood the test of time to 2003. Honestly, I can't think of a single one, as every popular Marvel Comic today had its start in the Silver Age. Remember, GS X-Men was not a new concept. It was part of an ongoing series started with X-Men 1, and was basically a revamp of the member list, still headed by Professor X, while including two (Cyclops and Marvel Girl) from the old team. Creating new member lists or revamping an existing series is a long tradition at Marvel and happens eventually for each team book (like X-Factor 71 for example). The truly new and innovative Marvel Bronze Age books had their time in the limelight and then faded out in the late-80's early 90's. The only thing that remained was retreaded Silver Age concepts that somehow are part of our collective consciousness and appeal greatly to the adult reader. To equate current popularity with an Age is to really say there was no Bronze Age. plus, Showcase is long gone (so we need a new Silver Age start) and if Action Comics ever goes down, we'd need a new one there too. Fortunately, the present does not change the past my good sir.

These are the factors that I see influencing how popular a character's first appearance is, while only looking at those characters that debuted outside of their own books. 1) Cover Appearance: This is a biggie, and is growing with the advent of CGC. Having the character on the cover makes a CGC first appearance that much more attractive. Cover art quality also enters into it, as does whether the comic cover is recognized as a classic pose or cover shot. 2) Must Be Part of the Main Story: The character must take an active role in the story, or better yet, be the focal point to that particular issue. 3) Popular Book/Character: Characters that debuted in Amazing Spider-man benefits from ASM collectors as well as 1st app. collectors vying for their books, as opposed to some long-dead series with little or no demand. 4) Fight, Fight, Fight: The best first appearances are where the character takes on another popular character, and the more powerful the better. This not only gives you some action and great panel shots, but tests the mettle of the new guy on the block and makes the issue that much more memorable. Naturally, Hulk 181 and ASM 129 fit the above criteria perfectly, while Iron Man 55 is on the other end of the spectrum. These are all are highly collectible, but I do feel that the attractiveness of ASM 129 and Hulk 181 add quite a bit on the bottom dollar. Dr. Strange's first app is another poor one, and it has long languished behind the other mainstream Marvel heroes. One book that I feel bears this out is Werewolf 32, which is the first appearance of Moon Knight. He's basically a 3rd-rate Marvel character (is he still dead or did Marvel revive him?) of limited importance, but his first appearance has been hot since the 80's. Classic cover shot with Moon Knight taking on Werewolf, the actual issue is almost entirely devoted to an all-out brawl between Moon Knight and Werewolf and is a great action read, and the popularity of Bronze horror books like WW is on the rise. Any other thoughts or examples?

CI, he's got his ear's plugged, and if your not on his bandwagon then your not intelligent to commincate on this debate. Just remember that my "bandwagon" includes virtually any major comic event from 1970 to 1972 or so. That is only logical, given that all of the important Bronze Age characters had appeared during (or started appearing soon after) that period. I am only interested in the era, since without a time machine, any later book would be exempt from the discussion just based on the laws of physics. You and your Mr Silver Age cronies state without a doubt that one and only one book started the Bronze Age: Giant Size X-men #1. It is unwavering, there is no room for debate, and you take a revisionist and highly illogical stance that a late-1975 comics influenced books and characters that appeared years before. I only care about the prospects of a temporal anomaly caused by Len Wein and Dave Cockrum time-sliding back to 1970 with their copy of GS X-Men #1 from 1975 and changing the entire Bronze Age from that point on.

Don't worry about pimpy, he's just got the hots for Mr. Silver Age and refuses to examine alternative evidence. X-Men is the hottest comic now, so naturally it must have been the hottest and more influential then. This kind of thought process comes from people I guarantee were not buying comics off the stands from 1970 to 1977. Otherwise, they'd have some point of reference rather than using today's sales totals.

Let's check the EBay listings: Golden Age (1938-55) Silver Age (1956-69) Bronze Age (1970-79) Action Comics #1 - 1938 (check) Showcase #4 - 1956 (check) Conan #1 - 1970 (check) Heck, even your X-Men reprints match up, as do a few other books. All I do know is that the Bronze Age did not start in 1975-78, when New X-men moved from low-seller to an actual MONTHLY comic.

Conan 1 works on multiple levels: anti-hero who kills, incredibly violent, horror themes, non-superhero characters, monsters, etc., all of which were prevalent in the Bronze Age and really helped differentiate it from the Silver.

I think what's you're getting at is the "Most Important Bronze Age Book", to which I agree is Giant Size X-men 1. But to say that a book printed in 1975 started the Bronze Age is quite ludicrous to anyone who actually bought comics during that period of time. Or to put it a different way, does anyone think Wolverine, Punisher, Ghost Rider, Deathlok, etc. are Silver Age characters?

CI, that's cold...and you wonder why you finished second to crusty in the recent poll. It may be cold, but if I picked up a Geography text (supposedly written by an "expert") and it stated that the Earth was flat, you could expect the same sort of response. His claims are illogical to the extreme, not to mention unyielding. Plus read his comments on our own postings and see how he bends the words and comes off a real tyrant. Now re-read my comments, and you'll see that I don't paint it in black and white, but rather keep my mind open to a great many theories, assuming they're based in reality and stay within the know rules of time and space. All the major Bronze Age characters appeared between 1970 and before the release of GS X-Men 1, but according to Mr. Silver Age, GS X-Men 1 was the start of the Bronze Age. I bet he doesn't take cruises either, for fear of dropping off the edge of the world!

That's not quite true drbanner. I'm open to a great many Bronze Age Start theories, from Conan 1 to GL/GA 76, including the Marvel 25-centers and even HOS 92, the horror explosion (Vamp, Drac and Werewolf, etc.) along with many others. What I am saying, is that if you believe that the Bronze Age started with GS X-men 1, which is a series that didn't even go MONTHLY until 1978, then you are a insufficiently_thoughtful_person and deserve the title. All of the major Bronze Age characters appeared before this book was even released, making it a theory that disagrees with Einstein's own relativity theory. I'll side with Einstein over Mr. Silver Age any day of the week.

Now read my above list and then check out the Silver Age insufficiently_thoughtful_person's reply: I got fairly good agreement that really cool super-hero comics began appearing in 1975 and into the 80's Hahahahaha. Go Rom Go!!

Here are some of the character intros in the CGC Board consensus Marvel Bronze Age (pre-Giant Size X-Men 1), starting with Conan 1: Wolverine, Punisher, Deathlok, Ghost Rider, Thanos, Luke Cage, Iron Fist, Shang Chi, Bullseye, Blade, Dracula, Werewolf, Kull, Son of Satan, Man-Wolf, Morbius, Killraven, Man-Thing, Brother Voodoo, Living Mummy, Mantis, John Carter, The Cat, New Age Warlock, Starlin's Captain Marvel, Eternals, Howard the Duck, Doc Savage, Red Sonja, Skull, Golem. Here are the character intros of Mr. Silver Age's Marvel Bronze Age (post-Giant Size X-Men 1, pre-Modern): Micronauts, Devil Dinosaur, Nova, Rom, Spider-woman, Sabretooth and Ms. Marvel I dare Mr. Silver Age to post these lists in his self-serving newsletter, and let the readers decide. Oh and feel free to add any new characters that were introduced post-Giant Size X-Men/pre-Modern; there's gotta be some real classics.

To just look back and say the X-Men were the most popular characters of the new age thus they must be the catalyst is probably the most ignorant argument I have heard to date and self-serving to only to the large number of New X-Men fans. That's exactly what is happening, as no one could be as stupid as this guy makes himself out to be. Magazines need to sell copies, and the easiest way to do this is to cater to the lowest common demominator. Plus, why doesn't he answer the real question: Of how his date of 1975 for the start of the Bronze Age leaves virtually all of the popular Bronze Age characters out of the mix, and really only includes like Nova, Ms. Marvel, and Devil Dinosaur as the "Bronze Age". In other words, what came AFTER Giant-Size X-Men that makes it the start of an Age? I'm hoping that article is just X-men hype to bring in the readers, since someone like this walking the streets worries me.

This guy is a pure, unadulterated insufficiently_thoughtful_person. 'nuff said.

I think no matter the return/refund policy you adopt, the only requirement is for it to be spelled out. If you guarantee CGC grading, but don't refund CGC fees or shipping, then state this in black and white. If you won't accept returns on CGC'd comics, then just put this statement clearly on each auction. My only problem with return options is when the seller hides very important factors and leads me to pay higher or even bid in the first place on his/her auctions. How you run an auction is your business, as long as nothing is hidden behind Door Number 3. We stand by our grade: If you choose, at your expense, to have a book purchased from us slabbed by CGC we guarantee our grade will be at least as high, numerically, as the CGC grade. If not, return the comic to us, within six months of purchasing it, in the undisturbed CGC holder, in the same condition as we sent it to you, and we will refund your original purchase price, your original postage/handling charge that we charged for shipping the item to you as well as your return postage expense to us. See this still hedges around the point and wastes space. You run around stating what is refundable when a simple sentence would leave no questions asked: CGC Grading Fees are NON-REFUNDABLE No questions, no confusion, no nothing.

Understood. I didn't mean to imply that I believed the Cage books to be completely free of problems - I'm just not willing to point a finger at anyone person at this point without further proof. Me neither, but I still have to look at the situation with a realistic eye and the knowledge than many fellow collectors have been sold similar books, and told that there was no restoration. No finger pointing from this cat, but I'm not going to white-wash it with some fairy tale about Cage getting a point-by-point restoration list with all his comics.

Sure Scottish, but someone sold Cage restored books, and it would be a coincidence of galactic proportions for 100% of them to be fully disclosed and documented to Mr. Cage, pre-sale. If anyone believes that he was never scammed on a single restored book, then please continue living in your dreamworld. La-tee-taaaa

Oh I agree that the numbers may be a bit off, but I'll tell you one thing: there is no way Cage bought that Mile High Cap #1 for big bucks, with the full knowledge that it was restored. If anyone thinks otherwise, two whacks to the head.

Hey, I'm with crusty 100% on this. There is no way that a buyer as wealthy as Cage is going to purchase restored comics, or worse still, pay full market for the unrestored equivalent. If you truly believe this, then there is something wrong with your thought processes. Those in the know realize that swindling rich, though inexperienced, collectors has been the backbone of the hobby for as long as I can remember. The richer the better, as that means the chances of the restored books being resold (and potentially found out) is much, much lower. CGC is the wild card that none of the swindlers expected to be dealt.

There are many other things to consider as well. These books were bought over a span of many years, at older market values. I don't know what was bought when, and I can't say for certain if he'll make money or lose money on this sale--something only he and his accountant know. You know, I really hate when this comment is brought up. Cage spent fair market value for unrestored books, yet some think it's okay that they're restored because he "may make money anyway". That's just bizarre because it totally discounts the huge sum he would have made had his smart investment actually been for the unrestored books he paid for. That's the amount he got scammed for, and even in the case of the restored Cap #1, that's some serious bucks.

There are really one main problem with defining a Bronze Age start, that being it's far too easy to look at the 1970's with revisionist glasses on and equate what is popular or important now, with what was hot and trend-setting then. Read the comics back then, check out the Bullpen Bulletins, do a character/book timeline and it's pretty easy to see that Conan was hot back then, and Marvel was looking to translate that Conan "look and feel" into the mainstream Marvel Universe, not to mention their new "Alternate Marvel Universe" including Deathlok, Killraven, Thongor, John Carter, etc. There's also a far easier way to illustrate this, by answering the following question: Would Marvel have given the go-ahead to such violent and edgy characters as Punisher, Wolverine, Deathlok, Ghost Rider, Thanos, Dracula, et al, without the success of the "slice and dice" Conan paving the way? I don't see how, as the "Marvel Boy Scout Brigade" was in full swing until Conan appeared. Not only that, but how about the edgy stories like ASM #121-122 or Captain America 172-176, or even the obvious move towards having villains like Morbius, Jackal, Green Goblin, Thanos, etc. actually killing victims/heroes on the comic's page? Increased violence, edgy amoral characters, and a preoccupation with death were the true Bronze Age ideals, and if anyone has a doubt that Conan helped usher these in, then I suggest picking up every Marvel Comic starting with Conan #1 and then reading chronologically forward.

I think the real question is exactly how you define the Bronze Age. I personally relate to the mass introduction of edgy, violent and/or amoral characters like Wolverine, Ghost Rider, Werewolf, Punisher, Dracula, Morbius, Deathlok, Son of Satan, Thanos, Luke Cage, Man-Wolf, etc. and it's a no-brainer than Conan #1 is the focal point. Before Conan #1, Marvel was chock full of costumed Boy Scouts, but soon after, Marvel seemed to take the death-dealing Conan model into the present (and future) in a variety of forms. On the other hand, if you think the Bronze Age relates more to realistic themes and comics taking on real-world issues, then GL/GA 76 is a great choice. If the Horror angle is your bag, then Vampirella, Dracula or Werewolf by Night are also excellent picks.

Okay, let's start this off on a different angle. A Comic Age is usually started by a book or character (s) that paves the way for a swift and sudden change in in the comic landscape. It may not be the most important or the best of the era, but it does give everything that follows a good kick start. When Conan appeared around 1970, what did we have at Marvel and DC? Essentially goodie-two-shoes heroes who went out of their way not to really hurt villains, and vice versa for the villains. That was really a Silver Age influence over the more violent Golden Age characters. Now Conan burst onto the scene, slicing and dicing villains, monsters and all manner of devil-spawn up, right there on the comic's page. This was like Golden Age Batman with a big sword and a bigger attitude, chopping up anything that came across his path. Now not every character that followed Conan was a direct result of this trend, just as not every comic that followed Showcase #4 or FF #1 had a 100% direct link, but these two Silver Age comics did provide that spark for a new direction, just as Conan did. After Conan, we have lots of edgy characters (which is really what the Bronze Age is all about) like Morbius (this guy killed people right on-panel), Werewolf by Night (same deal) and Dracula (duh!), not to mention demon-spawned and pseudo-eveil characters like Ghost Rider and Son of Satan. Kull is a no-brainer link to Conan as well. Then later on we have two of THE major Bronze Age icons: Wolverine and Punisher. It's irrelevant that either book increased or decreased in value in 1989, but Marvel brought them out in 1974 for a reason, and that reason was not GS X-Men #1. Wolverne and Punisher both did what Conan could easily do in the Hyborrian (sp?) Age, except these "villain killers" were simply updated for 1974 with claw and shotgun replacing sword. Add the death-dealing Deathlok (have you tallied the body count in his 1975-76 mags?) and Man-Wolf to the equation and you have a helluva lot of Conan-like characters emerging in a short period of time. And let's not forget about the Titan who sought the very hand of Death herself: Thanos. That boy was prepared to kill bilions if necessary and was one of the most evil and conscience-less villains ever created. Even characters like Luke Cage, Man-Thing, Living Mummy, Golem, etc. are definitely amoral and rode a thin line between hero and villain. This was the Bronze Age at its best, and while Conan #1 may not encompass every single Bronze Age character or concept, neither did Action #1, Showcase #4 or FF #1. What these key books did was provide the initial concept that gave the Age its direction and pushed it on to greatness. In terms of an overriding theme for the Bronze Age, edgy and amoral characters, increased violence and realism, along with a preoccupation with death and dealing it out, were the definite order of the day for the Bronze Age.

As you can see, we're the only two people talking about this, long after everyone esle tired to trying to sway you from your CBG devotion. It should be quite obvious that no matter which comic you espouse to be the start of the Bronze Age (Conan 1, ASM #121-122, Marvel Feature/Spotlight/Premiere 1, etc.) that Giant-Size X-Men ain't it. Since it is obviously not this obvious to you even in the face of overwhelming evidence, you'll probably never be convinced otherwise and I'll just have to stop trying, as the others have done.

Or let's look at it another way, especially since GS X-Men #1 was released in 1975 and ASM #129 and Hulk #181 didn't expode until 1989 (14 years later): Most of the major Bronze Age characters like Wolverine, Punisher, Werewolf, Deathlok, Luke Cage, Dracula, etc. all languished at low Guide values until 1989-90 or so, so by using the bizarro "valuation = Age" argument, couldn't Amazing Spider-man #300 actually be the start of the Bronze Age, since the rising prices on Venom's first app. had a lot to do with collectors looking back and re-valuing other first appearances. No wait, it was The Infinity Gauntlet, since that took Silver Surfer, Thanos and Warlock from relative "valuation obscurity" and turned them into high-dollar books. Hold on, maybe it was New Mutants #87, which along with ASM #300 helped push the "first appearance" Silver/Bronze valuation to new heights. Wait a minute, maybe it was.... Here's you argument in a nutshell: GS X-Men #1 was released too late to be the cause of any major Bronze Age character or book, so you're saying it's the start of the Bronze Age because 14 years later some of the Bronze Age books caught a trend and rose in value? That must be the "Time-Release Bronze Age" start point, waiting a full 14 years to take effect.