comicinvestor-migration

Just in case you think I'm skirting the question, I'm not. I truly believe there was a huge reason why Marvel decided to introduce two characters like Wolverine and Punisher. These two guys were very different than Marvel's current stable of mainstream characters, in that Punisher was basically a killer with a flawed sense of morality, and Wolverine was a psychopath (even in #181) who sliced and diced anything in his path. Check out the scene in Hulk 181 where he gives Wendigo everything he's got and is amazed the creature is still breathing. These two characters were so different from Spidey, FF, etc. it wasn't funny, and these guys did follow along the path that Conan blazed, and I really doubt Marvel would have given them the go if a certain sword-wielding, head-slicing Cimmerian wasn't burning up the sales charts in the early 70's. And as far as the Punisher is concerned at least, he's always been a popular character. The letter pages at that time called for his return on a monthly basis and Overstreet noted his first appearance not long after. I think what you're getting at is "valuation" as opposed to popularity, which is a whole different animal and based more on timing than on how many people liked a given character. You do realize that in 1988, Fantastic Four #48 was a $20 book, Hulk #181 was $25, Amazing Spider-man #50 was $10, and Amazing Spider-man #129 was under $20? By contrast, Punisher #1 Limited Series was $12 and rising. That was right at the end of the "first issue" craze, where no character debut was worth a lot if it wasn't also a first issue. The rise in prices in 1988-on had nothing to do with popularity and everything to do with buying trends turning 180 degrees towards first appearances. Knowledge is power alright.

That's a pretty bad argument considering both were released in 1974, a year before Giant-Size X-men #1, but I guess everyone's got an opinion. Me, I stick to the commonly established rules of time and space, and unless you've got a time machine, I seriously doubt that a book in 1975 resulted in the creation of two characters in 1974. But hey, that's just me and Einstein's theory and it can always been disproven.

I see what's you're saying, which i why I feel Brave & Bold #28 was a far more important Silver Age book, but Showcase #4 was where it all started (check future Showcase and B&B issues to see how it started up relatively fast). On the other hand, I have yet to see anything from you on my original question: Show me the "hot books" that were produced in the years preceeding the release of Giant-Size X-Men #1 and before the start of the Modern Age. Personally, I can't think of a single major release that had any noticeable effect on the Bronze Age, that is, unless you think Nova and Ms. Marvel are major books. On the other hand, after the intro of Conan and the Marvel Try-outs (and BEFORE GS X-Men #1), I could fill this page with new characters, comic titles, teams, revamped characters, etc. Two of them (Wolverine and Punisher) would be THE most popular characters and are core intros of the Bronze Age. If you want to go head to head, just let me know as I've compiled a pretty long list of 1970-75 Bronze Age books. I can even beat the "non-record" of GS X-Men #1 using the same timeline for Silver. I'll say this one more time: Giant-Size X-Men was a product of the Bronze Age and had virtually nothing to do with its formation. It did however, set the tone for much of the Modern Age, which (along with not understanding the concept of time and space) is probably where the confusion starts.

You Donut: My comment: "If you were buying comics in 1975-76 you would know this and quickly realize that the New X-Men is a Modern phenomonen that had little or nothing to do with the Bronze Age." Your comment: Sorry, CI, but on this one you're wrong. At least in the Chicago area, the "New X-Men" were the absolute hottest thing out there from at least X-Men 96 on. As an example - I had a booth at the Chicago Comicon in 1977" I don't see where we disagree, as Byrne started up at #108 in 1977. That was a bombshell and by 1978 when they really got going, New X-Men was hot. I don't believe the comic was even monthly until issues 110-112 or so. If a book doesn't have the sales to get out of the bi-monthly pit, then it's ain't doing too well. My point was this: New X-Men was not a hit out of the box, and did not immediately start affecting comics until a good 3-4 years later. By that time, we were getting quite close to the end of the Bronze Age, so it is absolutely ludicrous to call Giant-Size X-Men #1 the start of the Bronze Age.

" might also add as inbetween S.A. and B.A. debate about Conan being the start of the B.A., what about MOKF(master of kung fu), that came out in 1973-74 only to hop on the martial arts bandwagon, so that makes Conan a certifiable "NO" as the start of the B.A." Why is this so obviously true again? I see absolutely no similarities between thr Fantastic Four and the Hulk, or between the Hulk and Ant-Man. How in the world could one single book emulate every single genre and character sub-type that followed it? All are super-heroes, and even then The Hulk was more of an Atomic Frankenstein Monster on the loose and far, far removed for any other Marvel hero book. I guess that means that FF didn't actually begin the Marvel Silver Age? When you quote that guy from CBG who thinks the Bronze Age began in 1975, it makes my head hurt. Do you really want me to list all the Key Bronze Age books, characters and first appearances that were pre-1975? How about just two: Hulk 181 and Amazing Spider-man #129 How you can have a Bronze Age without theintroduction of two of its most important characters is beyond me. But I guess the CBG guy has a good reason for this....

"ask mr. silver age (craig shutt)" Truthfully, if this bozo is saying that Giant Size X-Men is the first Bronze Age comic, then why would I want to talk to him? My wall would make a more invigorating conversationalist. Hint: Compile a Marvel release calender and check out what books came out AFTER Giant-Size X-Men around 1975-1980, and then do the same for those that appeared between 1970 and 1975. If 75-80 is the Bronze Age, then I want no part of it.

"Good point though - and I just have to ask when do you think the Bronze Age ended?" Honestly? X-Men 137. You could also make the case of many comics, such as Daredevil 168 or 181, but the Death of Phoenix really put the final stamp on everything the Bronze Age represented. That's not the same as the start of the Modern Age, and if there is any "tweener age" in comics it's the early to mid-80's Marvel and DC. Uggh!

While I still don't think there is one, definitive comic that started the Bronze Age, I'm prepared to admit that Conan 1 fits the bill more than any other introduction. It was a new character in comics, it did set the tone for increased violence/anti-hero sentiments, and brand new characters, books and revamps did follow in short order. GL/GA 76 was a nice shift for comics to more realistic subject matter, but it's an impossible stretch to tie this comic with major Bronze characters like Punisher, Wolverine, Deathlok, Werewolf, Dracula and the other more edgy, violent comic trends that the Bronze Age is best known for. The Marvel Explosion of '68 is a non-factor, since this was simply an expansion of the title count, taking split books and turning them into single comic titles. No new characters, no new concepts, no team books, character revamps, etc., so no New Age in my opinion. You can make a case for Conan based on the new characters and comics that did follow it, and I think that's the best evidence so far as to the true focal point of the Bronze Age. It's not perfect, but I guess it's the best we've got. Oh yeah, the next person to state that the 1975 poor-selling, revamp of the New X-Men started the Bronze Age gets whacked with a rolled up stack of X-Men 90-93 reprints.

'Pretty earth shattering. I think GS X-Men #1 and the introduction of the New X-Men had that impact on the industry and comics." Yeah Battlestar Galactica, Nova and Ms. Marvel were quite the world-beaters. Giant-Size X-Men didn't even register on the radar, at least until Claremont and Byrne really got rolling around 1978-1980. If you were buying comics in 1975-76 you would know this and quickly realize that the New X-Men is a Modern phenomonen that had little or nothing to do with the Bronze Age. Kids.

Actually, I think of Conan the same way many view the old Dr. Droom vs. FF #1 argument over which was really the first Silver Age Marvel. Dr. Droom was undoubtedly first and gave Marvel an idea that super-heroes could sell, but it was FF that provided the catalyst for the rapid new title and character growth at Marvel. I think Conan was an important book, that did prove some "hero misconceptions" quite false, but it just didn't provide the immediate impetus for Marvel to get off their butts and follow that up more and more new comics and characters. The Big Three of Marvel Feature, Marvel Spotlight and Marvel Premiere did this, and even these titles launched a host of new and very popular characters. Again, just my 2-cents.

"There may be no consensus #1 Bronze Age book" I'm thinking that is probably closer to the truth than anything. I feel the Bronze Age was started by change, a new direction, myriad new titles and characters coming fast and furious, and a new outlook on comics. I'm beginning to feel that there is no definitive single book that sums up the start of the Bronze Age, but more a cumulative effect of the above, which incidentally was also what defined the Silver Age. The 25-cent Giants were produced for Marvel's 10th Anniversary, really started the New Age of Marvel Comics (only printing and art delays kept all the Try-Out Giants from appearing concurrently) and is consistent with everything a Golden, Silver or Bronze Age shift is supposed to represent. Plus, it makes it easier on collectors, as 15-cents = Silver and 20-cents = Bronze. If you look at Marvel Comics before and after their 10th Anniversary, things really changed and did so very fast. Horror titles proliferated, new Team books emerged, new superheroes burst on the scene, older heroes were re-worked, anti-heroes like Wolverine and Punisher emrged, Marvel killed off twomain characters in the span of two issues, and the only reason we don't have a "Definitive Bronze Age Book" is because while many were hugely popular for their time, are no longer with us. Back then, they were the cat's meow and really drove the industry forward. Now we look back with views tainted by the Modern Age and tactfully forget what comics we actually bought back then. The big sellers then are not the big sellers now. Giant Size X-Men #1, along with X-Men 94-100 or so, were horrible sellers and didn't exactly set the industry on fire. In fact, the only early New X-Men issues I have were bought from those "X Comics for $1" reseller packs that always had the dredges of the low-selling books in them. A combination of John Byrne, Wolverine and excellent timing was what made that book successful and it took many years to get to that point.

Yeah, I'm not saying who's right or wrong, but if Giant Size X-Men started off the Bronze Age, then I am definitely a collector of that "tweener period" (let's call it Not-Bronze Age), and a large segment of supposed "Bronze Age Collectors" are the same way. Some of my favorite Not-Bronze Age comics: Amazing Spider-man 129 Incredible Hulk 181 Amazing Spider-man 121, 122 Marvel Team-up 1 Marvel Two-in-One 1 Iron Man 55 Marvel Premiere 15 Marvel Spotlight 2 and 5 Ghost Rider 1 Amazing Adventures 11 House of Secrets 92 Green Lantern/Green Arrow 76 Hero for Hire 1 Marvel Feature and Defenders 1 Defenders 4 and 10 Avengers 112 Captain Marvel 25-33 I personally think the Not-Bronze Age books are far more collectible and inherently valuable than the Bronze Age, and looking back the only Bronze Age books that I collect are X-Men and Miller's Daredevil. Not-Bronze Age rulezzz!!! Bronze Age suckezzzz!!!

"I would say that there was an in between age that occurred between the end of the Silver Age and the start of the Bronze. Kind of a transition time when Marvel Team-Up etc. came out." Okay, let's go with this. What then, were the major Bronze Age debuts that followed on the heels, and were directly influenced, by the release of Giant-Size X-Men? If you want to cut out Defenders, Iron Fist, Dracula, Wolverine, Punisher, Werewolf, Ghost Rider, Luke Cage, Kull, Son of Satan, Man-Thing, Marvel Team-Up, Marvel Two-in-One, Brother Voodoo, Living Mummy, The Cat, Man-Wolf, New Age Warlock, Starlin's Captain Marvel, Thanos, Howard the Duck, and the host of other pre-1975 characters and books from your Official Bronze Age, what do you have left? Micronauts, Battlestar Galactica, Nova and Ms. Marvel?

I think Amazing Spider-man 121-122 was the apex of the Bronze Age, but no way it started the whole thing. That's 20-20 hindsight at work, as this issue came out well after the Bronze Age was in full swing. Unless Stan Lee had a time machine, I doubt that ASM 121-122 was the trigger for the mass introduction of new Bronze Age comics. I think there's only 2 valid options, for Marvel at least: Conan Marvel Try-Outs Either one has evidence to back it up as the catalyst for the Bronze Age Boom at Marvel Comics, and either works in the timeline.

I've been reading some of the old Bullpen Bulletins (which incidentally give excellent historical perspective) and the whole "New Age" Marvel phenomenon centered around their new "Try Out" series, which would hopefully spin off to individual series in their own right, along with new books with existing characters: Marvel Premiere (New Age Warlock, Dr. Strange, Iron Fist) Marvel Spotlight (Werewolf, Ghost Rider, Son of Satan) Marvel Feature (Defenders) Astonishing Tales (Ka-Zar) Amazing Adventures (Inhumans) Other issues that were highlighted as "New Age" were Dracula, Marvel Team-Up, Creatures on the Loose, Monsters on the Prowl (Kull), Hero for Hire (Luke Cage), Red Wolf, and others. It seemed as if Marvel was trotting out a new character/book or two each and every month. Stan Lee was also promoting the fact that the "Marvel Age of Comics" slogan was shifting to "Marvel's on the Move Again" with "wild and whacky ideas" far removed from "the early days when Marvel was just a'borning". Interesting stuff, and regardless of our thoughts today, Marvel definitely had their Bronze Age fired up around the Try-Out books as the starting point for their new age. On another note, I gotta stop reading that stuff! It was before my time, but it still makes you nostalgic for the true days of fandom and the real innocence present in the pages. Hell, Stan apologized 50 times for trying to raise cover prices from 15-cents to 25-cents, and then another 20 times for the eventual price hike to 20-cents.

What's important is to not look at "Comic Ages" with 20-20 hindsight. Of course The New X-Men is the recognized as the most important Bronze Age book... today. I don't think Showcase 4 is the most important Silver Age book by a longshot (both FF#1 and B&B 28 are much bigger infuences) but it was the first book to start the trend towards new characters, re-introduced old characters, and totally new concepts. After that initial foray, a steamroller effect takes place, and these new books and characters proliferate and potentially change the way the whole comic market works. Check out the Marvel and DC Silver Age and you'll see a constant influx of new and old characters, new team books, and a quantum shift in the business. The 20-20 hindsight angle is important to keep in mind, as when the Bronze Age was in full gear, who wasn't out there buying Iron Fist, Defenders, Master of Kung Fu, Marvel Team-up and the like. New X-Men was a very poor seller early on and in addition to being released well after other 1970's comics, it certainly wasn't a leader in the new wave of Bronze books. It may be recognized as the most important Bronze book now, but it certainly wasn't then, and it didn't create an rapid influx of new comics and characters. That was then, and this is now, and it's tough to look for Bronze Age starting points through 2002 glasses. Looking back to those days, I remember Marvel Team-Up, Defenders, Iron Fist, Ghost Rider and some others as being the real drivers to my "New Bronze Age" comic buying habits. I picked up the newer issues, while making sure to put those lame- X-Men reprints back on the shelf.

First off, a Comic Age is usually defined as a period where new characters and concepts are introduced, while re-working existing ones in new ways or into new titles. My pick for start of the Marvel Bronze Age would be Marvel's Anniversary 25-cent Giants in '71. Even Stan stated in his Bullpen comments that this was a new era for Marvel, blah, blah, blah. So my pick would be either Marvel Feature #1 or Marvel Spotlight #2. One was the first app. of the Defenders and the other was the first appearance of Werewolf. Marvel Spotlight #2 is not important on its own, but the comic did start the wave of new 70's characters/books like: Ghost Rider, Hero For Hire, Dracula, Iron Fist, Shang Chi, and a ton of other characters, and even lamers like Brother Voodoo, The Golem and Living Mummy. Marvel Feature really started Marvel on the path to re-working existing characters in new ways or titles, such as: New X-Men, Marvel Team-up, Defenders, Champions, Starlin's New Captain Marvel and Warlock, etc. Even the titles at that time changed slightly, as DD #81 was the first real team-up of him and the Black Widow, and ASM #102 was right in the middle of the horror-filled Six-Armed Spidey and Morbius the Vampire saga. Later on, we were also greeted to two of the most popular characters ever, Wolverine and the Punisher, not to mention an unprecedented double-death of Gwen Stacy and the Green Goblin. I've looked at it six ways from Sunday and those 25-cent Anniversary Giants really set off a wave of new characters, books, re-works, and ideas that wasn't seen at Marvel since the start of their Silver Age. There's no question in my mind that's where it started, but the choice of "first book" is open to some interpretation.

Or better yet: If I find a stack of VG-Fine early Marvel Silver at a $30 BIN, I'm a huge fan of mid-grade issues.