joe_collector

Well that might be the key to its popularity, as a true variant is right on the shelf with the regular issue, either unnoticed (price variant, mis-print, error) or unpromoted and as a way to reward fans. Anything that is a dealer premium or kick-back, or some of that DF [!@#%^&^], is a manufactured collectible, separate from the standard edition and designed from the ground up to be priced and sold at a mark-up.

Thanks for the info, but was the Skeleton cover a known dealer premium, as in no cover price or would otherwise never get to the retail shelf? If it was just a variant mixed in with the rest of the print run, and therefore sat on the retail shelf with the other issues, then I don't classify it as a manufacturered collectible. By definition, a manufactured collectible is NEVER intended to be put on the comic shelf at the same time and price as the standard version. It's usually a kick-back for dealers or in the case of DF, a way to make a quick buck from the fanboyz.

>>The "skeleton" cover of Adventurers #1 is a "manufactured collectable, and highly in demand now. What's the history on that book? Was it a dealer premium or giveaway?

>>Personally i love variants...manufactured or not....although I’m still trying to work out what a non-manufactured variant is A comic that was different from the standard run (price variant, misprint, error, etc.) that was on the shelf at the same time and at the base cover price. If it's a manufactered variant, it's intended for higher valuation right off the presses, and goes straight to the dealer for resale, or is sold retail at a premium (DF).

I don't think I'll go $40, but if it hangs around for awhile, I may take a stab at a bid. If you want teh BIN, nab it.

>>Oh, and as far as the CA #180, I was seriously thinking about buying it the 1st time it listed. I think it's a pretty cool book.... It's a seriously cool book, and one of the Bronze Age high-points where Cap gets sick of Nixon and tosses away his shield, assuming the mantle of Nomad in all his bare-chested glory. If that book came out today, it would be an instant collector's item fetching thousands in CGC 9.8.

Although I'd rather have a CGC 9.6, here's a book that I think is undervalued. Whether it's worth the $40 BIN is another question entirely. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2172517427&category=33810

>>But on a different, and more meaningful discussion, Vince - please tell me what books are OK with you to buy? I like you, buddy, but every single book that is discussed on these boards you slam as being spec-fodder. That's not true, and in one thread, I even offered some "fun money" comics that aren't too expensive and have some upward potential You may feel the Batman books is "special", but you know the track record of this kind of dealer premium. Not good, and due to the low print runs and artificial scarcity, they seem to forgotten in a year or two. I've heard the same thing many times before, and values have always fallen after the initial hype. Maybe you're right and this will be a $1K comic in a few years, but I highly doubt it.

But that Hardcover is a totally different comic and is actually worth significantly more, just from an aesthetic point of view. The Batman we're talking about is just a standard comic, but with a "special edition" cover limited to 200 geeks who'll foot the dealer tab.

>>They are going into BatPeople's private collections. Exactly, and in a year or so, when Lee is on Spider-man and Loeb is working FF, no one will care about those 200 issues of ......

Anyone who invests in this type of "manufactured collectible" does not understand the underlying economic principles behind comic collecting. Low print runs harm an off-the-shelf comic's value in the long-term, as a Modern collector's memory is extremely short-term, the books was never for sale off the shelf, attrition is nil, and virtually no one will even remember it in 5-10 years. Just remember, rarity in itself does not translate into higher values. The best equation is huge print runs + extreme attrition, which is why older comics are raking in the big bucks. It's not because they're rare, but because potentially millions of kids bought, read and tossed that Golden Age issue, thus creating a lucrative resale market for the few remaining copies. The "limited" comics are a dealer premium and are intended to fleece the unwary and inexperienced collector out of their hard-earned cash. Always have been, always will be.

Oh yeah, that comic will hold its value.

>>That said, neither you, Gene, I or anyone has all the "correct answers". If we did, this would all be too simple. You're right, and I can't prove that what I say will come to play, unless I suddenly build a time machine. I will say this: I have accurately predicted the rise and fall of comics since the 70's, and it's really not too difficult. Just looks for areas that have seen extreme price inflation over a short period of time, don't follow the crowd, and if your grandma, your neighbors and your co-workers starts asking about investing in comics, get out fast. And yes, some people I know, who wouldn't know a comic book from a coat hook, are asking me about "investing in comics". From that point on, I am being very careful what I buy, and just banking my cash and waiting for the pain that will surely come. At that point greggy and the boys can crawl out into the sunlight and scarf up all the nice books for 10 cents on the CGC dollar.

>>With so many books trading hands through on-line transactions, the CGC market has become virtually a real-time, 24-hour marketplace. Price trends can turn on a dime and liquidity can evaporate just when you need it the most. Just something to consider. That's an excellent point and I remember it happening with Daredevil 131. The night that I posted that lame-o "suck me" Bullseye movie pic, I remember the release of the trailer absolutely killed demand and you couldn't get anything for a high-grade issue. People started seeing clip, realization hit that Bullseye wasn't anything like the comic book, and you could see potential buyers jumping ship in real-time. One minute it's the hottest comic and the next it's DOA. You know Del, this freaky stuff is starting to scare me.

>>So if you do take a loss on a 9.8 in a disastrous crash scenario you don't really have a buffer in that case - just some profit from other ventures that you used to buy the book to make it be less "new" money. A loss is a loss and a gain is a gain And there's another thing to consider; that a far better use for the "profit" could likely be found that pouring it back into comics. That's personal taste of course, but I don't see where the profits are, except by leveraging more cash into even riskier CGC investments. As you said, you got lucky and climbed the CGC tree from 9.2 to 9.8, profiting on the way. But now that you're at the top, don't ever look down. It's quite a drop. But hey, you guys know all the trends, you know all the answers, and I guess I'll come back here in a few years and all you high-rollers will be billionaires based on your comic book investments. I wish you luck.

>>There's at least one, maybe two, "big wheel" collectors on his list who were buying big before and after CGC, and one HUGE investor who has probably put more money into comic book back issues, graded and ungraded, than Geppi. Sure, that's why I stated: "These are people willing to pay huge bucks for ultra high-grade CGC material, nothing more, nothing less." If that's your definition of a big wheel, then by all means, follow their rather simplistic "buy the best, no matter the cost" advice to your own doom.

>>I have had discussions myself with some of the real big wheels in comics and a lot of them put their money where their mouths are and only buy the best. They feel there will always be those that have to have it. Folks in that category are Josh, Toychef, Bronzebruce, Brulato, JP and a few others. Bwaaah Hahahahahaha You really believe these guys are BIG WHEELS in the comic collecting world? You can't be serious? These are people willing to pay huge bucks for ultra high-grade CGC material, nothing more, nothing less. Someone like Geppi would be on my list of big wheel collectors, not these CGC madmen. P.S. No offense Bruce, and Clobby put you on the list.

Don't get involved banner, it's not good for the stress level... and we know what you're like when you're angry, This whole conversation is moving into the Twilight Zone, where arguments for GS X-Men 1 being the start of the Bronze Age (sales, popularity, new comics, new characters) are trotted out and summarily shot down with incontrovertible evidence... Until we get to the point where some of the key Modern comics are being listed now. What's next, Ultimate Spider-man?

! That is hilarious. So, New X-Men directly led to Love and Rockets, Miller's ground-breaking Daredevil and Bill S.'s revolutionary work on Elektra Assassin? I'm sure the creators of the above comics wouldn't be too enthused to hear that. Thanks for the laugh!! I'm not sure if you're just pullig my leg since it's April 1st, but due to some of your previous bizarro posts, I'm not betting on it.

The wind in the willows swirled, loosening a piece of tree bark.

>>Why do sales keep coming into this equation. Because that's the only thing that supports the narrow view that the Bronze Age started in late-'75 and was inherent on GS X-Men to even be started upon. I've seen this opinion many times before, and is based upon the flawed premise that what is popular today "just had to be" a trend-setter when it first arrived on the scene. In reality, this is hardly ever the truth, as trends come and go, and rarely is anything popular and Age-defining upon release and then maintains that top-line status for 25-30 years. The X-Phenomenon was a 1990's affair, which is currently dying out and will be (has been?) replaced by another (the Ultimates?).

It's pretty obvious you're just trolling for responses, since you evade the question of what post-1975, pre-Modern Age Marvel comics and new characters did GS X-Men #1 force into being? I have the list, and it's none too impressive, including gems such as Ms. Marvel, Nova, Devil Dinosaur, and Rom, among others. If that's your Bronze Age, then go back in your corner and collect them, while the rest of us concentrate on our Bronze Age (your Weird Age) and collect the 1970-80 Marvel characters and comics that Conan #1 and GL/GA #76 brought into being. Characters like (to steal a post): Wolverine, Punisher, Deathlok, Ghost Rider, Luke Cage, Iron Fist, Shang Chi, Bullseye, Thanos, Blade, Dracula, Werewolf, Kull, Son of Satan, Man-Wolf, Morbius, Killraven, Man-Thing, Brother Voodoo, Living Mummy, Mantis, John Carter, The Cat, New Age Warlock, Starlin's Captain Marvel, Eternals, Howard the Duck, Doc Savage, Red Sonja, Skull, Golem. If those characters are not Bronze Age, then you don't have a lot left, nor a lot of collectors looking for "first appearances" in *your* Bronze Age.

What he said. Seriously, that was a great post kevthemev, and right on the bull's eye.

>>I've always found that debate works best if both parties are interested I was interested, up until the point where you dragged out the old lame duck about the Bronze Age starting in 1975, and was somehow dependant on a poor-selling, revamped Silver Age comic (you do realize that the X-Men started in the 1960's, don't you, and this was simply a revamp of the membership?) that didn't even go monthly for years after, and didn't become a best-seller until the 1980's. At that point, I gave up, since that makes no sense and is based on looking at history through the rose-colored glasses of 2003. Plus, it turns Wolverine and Punisher, two of the most popular characters ever, into (your words) "Weird Era" creations, not to mention a few zillion more 1970-75 characters (Ghost Rider, Luke Cage, Iron Fist, etc., etc.) and comics (Defenders, Death of Gwen/GG, etc.) that the vast majority of collectors refer to as Bronze Age. If you slice out that huge chunk of 1970-75 Marvel characters, books and events as "Weird Era", what do you have left at The House of Ideas that would even resemble an Age? Oh yeah, I forgot, the top-selling comic of the mid-80's and the X-Mania of the 1990's.

>>I'm not sure that "Bronze Age" dates back quite that far in terms of common usage. I dug up an Overstreet from 1992 and the term isn't even mentioned Actually, I have earlier OS's where the term is mentioned, but as you know, most Dealers were quite averse to change and refused to grant it universal stature until later. Most of the old-guard were of the "Silver and Gold are quite enough, thank you" camp, and just called them "70's Comics". You also state later that GS X-Men is the most important Bronze Age comic and I couldn't agree more. In fact, the X-Men followed the EXACT same trend as Spider-man. AF 15 was not the start of the Silver Age, nor was it the best-selling title of the early-60's (that went to Fantastic Four), but as time went by, it's importance was recognized and Spidey took over as top-seller and launched a ton of new comics in his name. Then again, all that success and high sales totals couldn't turn back the clock, and his book has never been referred to as the start of the Silver Age. Most important Silver Age comic, perhaps, but too late to be the trend-setter in any way. The same story goes for GS X-Men. Super important book, but in no way new (it was a revamp of an existing title) and it came in much too late (and took 8+ years to become the sales leader) to be on the forefront of the Bronze Age. Then again, the above is simply logic, so feel free to disregard it.