Get Marwood & I

My Girl Pearl #7 Aug 1960 with T&P indicia:

Amazing...

 

So many variants now the mind-boggles

 

However, proven that my GW 63 spot was certainly not a one-off

Perhaps it was only Westerns? L Miller perhaps had some special arrangement?

 

The L Miller text looks like it has been added later, printed on later, or stamped on?

 

thanks Steve

 

On my GW 58, 60 and 63 all three L Miller indicia lines look like they're part of the original print. I think it may be just Westerns, as you say, as this follows the online info for L Miller.

Here's a scan of Patsy & Hedy #71 - Aug 1960 - which is slap in the middle of the 3 GW dates and it's indicia has Thorpe & Porter:

So this tells us that while T&P were importing Marvel originals with 9d stamps from May 1960, they weren't the only ones. L Miller were doing it too for titles that would become Marvel titles.

Yikes.

Would you believe it, next parcel arrives and in it we have a Gunsmoke #60. Note:

 

- 10c Copy

- L Miller internal Indicia

- L Miller cover stamp of 6d (when 9d was the price of the time)

 

 

Google tells us that L Miller did Western reprints only but, as this copy and the #63 show, they clearly did US original imports too.

 

So many questions. Why print an L Miller indicia line but not a pence price? Why 6d and not 9d? How does this sit with Thorpe & Porter being the 'sole importer of Marvel comics'? Marvels banner did not appear until Jun 1961 so maybe L Miller had a deal with Atlas (or whoever was in charge then - Atlas allegedly being defunct in 1957).

 

So, subject to physical confirmation that 10c copies exist without the L Miller indicia line (see previous post) a new line for pence variant collectors to pursue. Good luck and patience will they need....

Gunsmoke Western #58 May 1960 - 9d printed price and an L Miller Indicia:

Help!

Fantastic summaries "Dog" (have you a real name?)

 

Can of worms opening,,,

 

JIM 65 - could the "wonky" font just be bad printing? I don't know enough about techniques from those days but assume the plates (?) could slip slightly?

 

I do have another issue I saw with UK indicia, but for the life of me can't find the image. Pretty sure it was an early TOS with brown cover. Will keep looking.

 

GW 65 - font - I don't think that line through the "10c" is a spine tic, I think it's that the font is poorly printed. But yes, other than that the font is the same

 

loving this investigation - has anyone else got original owner copies of these books, UK or USA?

Woof! Real name is Steve. Hello Ewan.

If the JIM 'wonky' font was caused by plate slipping, wouldn't other bits slip too? Odd that the copy I got the scan from was in Canada.

Glad you're loving the posts. I'm sitting here with a pile of old beat up comics looking for anomalies. What else can we do on a Saturday?

Would you believe it, next parcel arrives and in it we have a Gunsmoke #60. Note:

- 10c Copy

- L Miller internal Indicia

- L Miller cover stamp of 6d (when 9d was the price of the time)

Google tells us that L Miller did Western reprints only but, as this copy and the #63 show, they clearly did US original imports too.

So many questions. Why print an L Miller indicia line but not a pence price? Why 6d and not 9d? How does this sit with Thorpe & Porter being the 'sole importer of Marvel comics'? Marvels banner did not appear until Jun 1961 so maybe L Miller had a deal with Atlas (or whoever was in charge then - Atlas allegedly being defunct in 1957).

So, subject to physical confirmation that 10c copies exist without the L Miller indicia line (see previous post) a new line for pence variant collectors to pursue. Good luck and patience will they need....

 

I think you're onto something here. I saw your Gunsmoke variant in the other post and have been pondering it. What is odd is that it's indicia says L Miller , not Thorpe & Porter. All online evidence suggests that Miller only did reprints and T & P were the sole distributors of Marvel originals. I'm planning to do some investigating on this and will report back. What is clear is that, as long as there is a cents priced Gunsmoke 63 without the L Miller indicia, then we have identified a new strand of variant. The debate would have to be what we call them . Really interesting stuff and, with the JIM example, a potential load of under the radar variants. I'll see what I can find out.

 

Thanks. It is definitely a newly discovered variant.

But yes, has anyone got another GS no.63 to show the indicia pls?

L Miller / T&P / Alan Class all shared printing and distribution resources over the 1950s and early 1960s. However, it is a good point. Unfortunately this is the only example I've seen so far - but I recall seeing stickered 9d cents comics previously.

Here's a table for Gunsmoke Western 63, I ordered a cheap copy from a UK dealer and, as you can see, my 10c copy has the L Miller Indicia too. I contacted a US ebayer (DTA Collectibles) and they advised their 10c copy did NOT have the additional L Miller line. So, whilst I haven't seen a scan, our copies do appear to be variants. What is puzzling is that the date - March 1961 - is after we started getting 9d printed prices. Gunsmoke Western #58 has a printed 9d price so why would an L Miller 10c copy exist of #63, especially when T&P did the importing and L Miller only did repacakaged reprint titles?

Very odd.

I can't see any font variations though Ewan:

Ok guys, this is getting spooky. If you check the updated table below you’ll see that we now have 3 distinct 10c font variations for JIM 65. The tall font version has a T&P indicia line. No pence copy has been found:

…and three versions of Strange Tales #81 - Pence copy, ‘Fat Font' 10c copy and ‘Tall Font' 10c copy which has the T&P indicia line:

….and here is the latest TTA 16 table. Three confirmed variants and it’s looking like all cents copies have the T&P indicia line. I have one T&P indicia scan for the ‘Tall Font’ 10c, 2 ebayers saying their Tall Font 10c copies have it, and one saying her ‘Short Font’ 10c copy has it:

So it looks like Feb 1961 is a good month for variant collectors!

Wouldn’t it be bizarre if we discovered that there were multiple printings? Pretty significant implications for keys I would imagine. I wish we had a board member who worked on the presses, or knows someone who did. There's enough evidence here to prove that something happened during the printing process, for this month at least.

I'll keep digging - I plan to look at other months to see whether Feb 61 was a blip

Just a point that may be helpful if not already posted. If Atlas/Marvel already had the distribution deal in place for England, it would have been simple to overprinting the color covers in 4/C and then split print the cheaper B/W backs , most for America with the regular indicate, and a second batch exactly the same with the extra paragraph below it. No extra printing costs this way, just paper, which is cheapest.

 

This explains the books with and without the extra British distrib paragraph that have the same 10c on the cover

 

Im trying to understand the other issues, why there are different 10c looks. I can't think of any reason why American copies would have been printed twice... And even if they were, the 10c would not change unless it fell off and a new typeset 10c was replaced in a different font out of sheer indifference.

 

Unless they were printed in a different market, fronts and backs, and Atlas sent stats (or negatives) to other licensed publishers with the prices removed (just empty area where the US 10c was) ...Then, In the case of countries that also use 10c pricing but received a blank price materials to print from, they would have had to typeset it again, maybe in whatever font they had access to.

 

Interesting thoughts. I enjoy the speculation, but until someone who worked on the presses comes forward that may well be all we'll be able to do. One theory I have is that copies may have been run off without a price plate in error, say at the start of the run. When this was noticed, a price plate was added and the run continued. Rather than destroy the unpriced copies, maybe they were hand / machined stamped with a different font stamp? When I look at the TTA 16, the 'tall' font looks like part of the overall print. The 'short' font looks like it was added. It's really difficult to tell without the books being in hand. Scans never do it justice.

 

Interesting. In what way do you think some prices were added afterwards? Are you seeing something in the scans? I'd think on a print run of even 100k and I'm guessing the numbers were higher back then, that's a lot of hand stamping that would be more expensive than running the uncut sheets back thru the press's to surprint black prices. I suppose if the printer messed up, they might choose to fix it that way if Atlas had enough leverage to force the issue..

If you look at the TTA 16 images the 'Short Font' 10c looks less clean than the 'Tall Font'. It has slightly blurry edges which sometimes appear when you hand stamp. The Thorpe & Porter stamp was hand applied - that's never in the same place - so the size of the task might not be a barrier. It's all speculation though - I don't fully trust scans, and plan to look at every copy I can in the flesh. See next post!

This is great thread.

 

CG at its best.

 

Let's hope someone can shed more light on this. I have never heard anyone talk about this before so it may be a significant discovery

Cheers - glad people are liking the thread. As it stands, they are two elements emerging:

1. Font Variations on US Cents copies (JIM 65 / TTA 16 so far)

2. UK indicia data (Thorp & Porter / L Miller) on US Cents copies (spotted by EwanUK)

Font Variations:

I have an updated table for TTA 16 but Photobucket is down so can't add it. I plan to keep looking and will build up a table of where this occurs

UK Indicia Data:

I have a Gunsmoke Western due and have asked some ebayers to check their copies. Will report back to see if any do not have the L Miller line

I'll keep summarising in chart form when I get the time as it's easier to read.

All good fun guys

Just a point that may be helpful if not already posted. If Atlas/Marvel already had the distribution deal in place for England, it would have been simple to overprinting the color covers in 4/C and then split print the cheaper B/W backs , most for America with the regular indicate, and a second batch exactly the same with the extra paragraph below it. No extra printing costs this way, just paper, which is cheapest.

 

This explains the books with and without the extra British distrib paragraph that have the same 10c on the cover

 

Im trying to understand the other issues, why there are different 10c looks. I can't think of any reason why American copies would have been printed twice... And even if they were, the 10c would not change unless it fell off and a new typeset 10c was replaced in a different font out of sheer indifference.

 

Unless they were printed in a different market, fronts and backs, and Atlas sent stats (or negatives) to other licensed publishers with the prices removed (just empty area where the US 10c was) ...Then, In the case of countries that also use 10c pricing but received a blank price materials to print from, they would have had to typeset it again, maybe in whatever font they had access to.

Interesting thoughts. I enjoy the speculation, but until someone who worked on the presses comes forward that may well be all we'll be able to do. One theory I have is that copies may have been run off without a price plate in error, say at the start of the run. When this was noticed, a price plate was added and the run continued. Rather than destroy the unpriced copies, maybe they were hand / machined stamped with a different font stamp? When I look at the TTA 16, the 'tall' font looks like part of the overall print. The 'short' font looks like it was added. It's really difficult to tell without the books being in hand. Scans never do it justice.

This is a great thread. Keep it coming boys.

 

I like the new designations for the cent copies of "short font" & "tall font".

 

Do we now suspect most of the prehero marvels had short & tall fonts on the prices or is it just limited to a couple?

 

I think of great importance would be to know if TTA13 has short & tall fonts since that is such a key issue.

Glad you like it Gadzukes. I only post the most obscure stuff I can find, heh heh. As it stands, JIM 65 and TTA 16 are the only font variants I've discovered so far but I plan to look much further into this. They may be one offs / unique. Keep watching...

 

 

Not wanting to be cynical, but I wouldn't trust your average ebayer's response without seeing a pic either

 

 

Yep, my own policy is always that it remains unproven until I've seen it myself or have photographic evidence.

...updated summary for TTA 16

It's looking like all Cents copies include the T&P indicia line. If so, we're down to three variants only, and a question mark over why the font difference exists (if it is not related to copies run off for the UK market).

I'll keep digging.....

Here's a table I put together to make the TTA 16 variants clearer.

We have 3 confirmed variants so far. Could anyone who owns a copy check their indicia pages and let me know if I can add any more to the chart please (e.g. Tall Font with no T&P indicia line) ?

Cheers

Ok, wish me luck - first attempt at posting images!

Tales To Astonish #16 Variants

9d Pence Copy

[/img]

10c Copy (Tall Font)

10c Copy (Tall Font) Indicia with T&P Distributor Line

Does anyone have a TTA 16 cents copy with no T&P indicia line?

Two more links - this time to Tales To Astonish #16 - both lifted from Ebay, both 10c copies but with completely different fonts. Maybe they were applied by hand?

 

 

TTA 16

 

TTA 16 2

 

Would someone be able to do that compare thing?

 

The 1st copy is almost certainly a UK "original owner" copy. WE need to see the indicia.

 

Amazingly, a copy has just appeared on ebay showing the indicia with a Thorpe & Porter line.

 

T&P tta 16

I've just realised that TTA 16 has a 9d price variant. If there is a cents version without the T&P indicia line the there will be three versions:

Cents price / no T&P indicia line

Cents price with T&P indicia line

Pence price

At least......

Sorry Ewan, that should read YOU have discovered a new variant line. Credit where credits due!

Naming conventions...?

 

ORIGINALS

Contents identical apart from price / date / indicia

 

Cents copy

Cents price variant (i.e. 15c, 30c or 35c)

Cents font variants (research needed)

Pence copy (i.e. 9d, 10d, later bronze Marvel & DC 8p, 9p, 10p etc)

Cents UK indicia (only GW no.63 so far)

 

"UK edition" is the term used by CGC - however they also use this on graded L Miller / Alan Class books (as below) so not consistent

 

There was another thread that had an early Golden Age New Fun with a pence price too!

 

BRITISH ORIGINAL REPRINTS

 

L Miller

T&P

Alan Class

Odhams

All 1st generation Marvel UK titles

I like it Ewan. I've never liked CGCs "UK Edition" myself. I prefer "Pence Copy ". If you call the US copies cents then you may as well call UK versions pence. My research only relates to the Marvel copies which all rolled off the presses together in the US at the same time, not reprints. I'll keep investigating and see if any other Cents copies with UK indicias turn up. If they do, and there are also versions without the UK indicia addition , then we have indeed happened across a new set of variants.

Until we have copies in our hands / internal scans, we'll need more research before we can call up font variants - it may be that they are the cents with uk indicias. .... all good fun

Two more links - this time to Tales To Astonish #16 - both lifted from Ebay, both 10c copies but with completely different fonts. Maybe they were applied by hand?

 

 

TTA 16

 

TTA 16 2

 

Would someone be able to do that compare thing?

 

The 1st copy is almost certainly a UK "original owner" copy. WE need to see the indicia.

Amazingly, a copy has just appeared on ebay showing the indicia with a Thorpe & Porter line.

T&P tta 16

 

I think you're onto something here. I saw your Gunsmoke variant in the other post and have been pondering it. What is odd is that it's indicia says L Miller , not Thorpe & Porter. All online evidence suggests that Miller only did reprints and T & P were the sole distributors of Marvel originals. I'm planning to do some investigating on this and will report back. What is clear is that, as long as there is a cents priced Gunsmoke 63 without the L Miller indicia, then we have identified a new strand of variant. The debate would have to be what we call them . Really interesting stuff and, with the JIM example, a potential load of under the radar variants. I'll see what I can find out.

 

Thanks. It is definitely a newly discovered variant.

But yes, has anyone got another GS no.63 to show the indicia pls?

L Miller / T&P / Alan Class all shared printing and distribution resources over the 1950s and early 1960s. However, it is a good point. Unfortunately this is the only example I've seen so far - but I recall seeing stickered 9d cents comics previously.

I've got a cents Gunsmoke 63 on order so should be able to confirm the indicia status in the next few days. I'll then try out some more at upcoming fairs, although many dealers aren't too happy when you ask to look inside a book you don't intend to buy just for research. If we can find a few more we can start to build a picture.

......but if they were the guy doing it was very consistent in his placing!

And does that second image have the little star stamp we some times see on bronze Mark Jewellers copies?

Bit of help please - can I not add an image to a post direct from my computer so that the actual image shows in the post, rather than the URL link?

Two more links - this time to Tales To Astonish #16 - both lifted from Ebay, both 10c copies but with completely different fonts. Maybe they were applied by hand?

TTA 16

TTA 16 2

I think I may have an answer: there appear to be some little known British CENTS/PENCE variants out there

From 1959-1961

I did post this in a recent UK the price thread....

 

This is Gunsmoke Western no.63

Clearly CENTS price on the cover...

 

 

BUT with a UK indicia

 

 

I found the book in a UK original owner collection - so was bought in the UK

 

This is the normal cents version... pic from Google

note the different fonts again

 

 

Theory is: these were published / printed in America, shipped over, stamped with the T&P indicia, then distributed to newsagents... who were supposed to stick little 9d stickers on them... obviously not alll were stickered...

I think you're onto something here. I saw your Gunsmoke variant in the other post and have been pondering it. What is odd is that it's indicia says L Miller , not Thorpe & Porter. All online evidence suggests that Miller only did reprints and T & P were the sole distributors of Marvel originals. I'm planning to do some investigating on this and will report back. What is clear is that, as long as there is a cents priced Gunsmoke 63 without the L Miller indicia, then we have identified a new strand of variant. The debate would have to be what we call them . Really interesting stuff and, with the JIM example, a potential load of under the radar variants. I'll see what I can find out.

Thanks for adding the pics - I haven't worked out how to add them direct from my pc yet. Looks like you can't. I find these little printing quirks fascinating. Any reason to mess about with comics is a good reason I guess...

Hello.

 

I'm new in town, so apologies if the two links below don't work, or if the subject veers too far into the obscure to warrant anyone else being interested. What they should show is two different copies of JIM #65 with what appear to be different size 10c prices in their respective white boxes:

 

www.ebay.com

 

www.ebay.com

 

 

Looking at other copies, the size of the 10c does seem to fluctuate....

 

Anyone else intrigued?

 

 

Not seeing much difference. Possibly just random variation in how the different colors were laid down on the page caused the size of the white box to vary a bit?

 

There is 100 % ABSOLUTELY a difference in type used! Nice find. I checked out some back issues of it on Heritage and there are examples of both so I'm not sure there's a huge rarity on one over the other. Pretty interesting.

I agree, the difference is palpable. So, why would the price size change midway through a print run? People have speculated which were printed first - Cents or pence - maybe they printed some cents, then changed the plate to pence, then back again with a different cents template. Maybe there was a second printing. Maybe the printing press broke. Will we ever know.....