PhilipB2k17

I have no grail. There are pieces I would love to own, and would make reasonable sacrifices to buy if any became obtainable, but nothing I obsess over. I like so many great OA pages that I find it hard to pick just one that would qualify. 

I think "grail-level" is a good way to define it. 

And I am not of the camp who thinks it necessarily wrong to sell your grail. Sometimes, the thrill is in the chase. Obtaining your grail may be more satisfying than possessing it long term. 

People are odd creatures. 

P.S. - How about "The One?" 

Here's a link to a French website selling that piece. Was this the dealer you bought it from? Or was he just advertising it there? 

https://www.entre-image.com/originaux/149-moebius-dessin-original-alphonse-machinet.html

15 hours ago, awayne83 said:

^Thanks for the advice. I did hit up one guy on CAF about Mann and he asked me what i was looking for and said he could get in touch with people, which was nice. But i don't follow new releases anymore so i prefer to browse pages, not go thru a middle man so to speak, and see what strikes my fancy. Plus, with some artists you  may not know if they are inked or not, and I've been surprised by how much some art can differ from the published product. I have loved some pages and not been too keen on the original work. Yeah but i guess i need to be more outgoing in my approach, but that's always been contradictory to my personality.

In Clay Mann's case, from what I know, he does pretty tight pencils that are very close to the final inked version.

I have Clay's e-mail address. I asked him a question about a piece I was interested in a couple of months ago, and he responded. So, let me know if you want it and I'll send it to you via private message.

I have some oversized pieces that don't fit in my Itoya. I put them in a Poly bag, taped down the flaps with acids free tape, then slipped them into a toploader. 

I put my Itoya & my toploaded pieces all into a zippered portfolio Carrying bag. 

1 hour ago, Nexus said:

Yes, without a doubt, the hotness of a book is key to its art sales. A direct correlation is expected. But we've seen many, many hot indie titles since 2011/12 (picking this most current Image era when modern comic speculation ramped up again while at the same time, people have become aware of OA) where the art didn't sell nearly so well. So exposure via promotion is key, as well.

Big Two art, as you note, has its own set of rules. Generally, Big Two is character driven, indie is creator-driven. Spidey art, for example, sells itself. GOD COUNTRY art, otoh, does not. Unknown creators. Limited series. Usually, those are two major strikes. But if readers respond to the story, and the art is good, then chances of the art selling are greatly improved. Still, this was totally unexpected:

http://www.felixcomicart.com/ArtistGalleryTitleDetails.asp?ArtistId=579&Mag=GOD+COUNTRY&From=Title

Yes, like I said, it's inevitable that the art will re-enter the marketplace at some point. The question is how much and how soon?

Nick Pitarra has drawn over 500 pages of THE MANHATTAN PROJECTS. About 95% of the pages are out there. The book is on hiatus now (although it will be back), so interest is at a low point. Not a great time to sell. But also when you would normally see owners lose interest and dump. Outside of a few random pages, we haven't seen much come out.

Maybe a flood of pages will hit at some point. But what I've seen since I've become a rep is that many of our assumptions about collectors were formed by what we've observed here, on CAF, amongst collecting acquaintances. The behavior becomes predictable. However, there are those out there who aren't as actively involved as us, who just buy some pieces for seemingly the hell of it. I don't think investment enters much into the equation at all. Besides buying art from indie limited series that most around here wouldn't touch (both because they don't read new books and because of the limited investment potential), they also get commissions. Which everyone here knows has probably, on average, the worst ROI in the hobby. But it doesn't matter, we sell a ton of commissions, too. And at pretty healthy rates, too.

I do agree that most buyers will buy based on some combination of aesthetic value and investment. But, at least for now, it does seem that many of the people who've been buying from me are placing less of an emphasis on investment. Which is a welcome surprise.

I agree with you on the exposure part. People have to know the book and the art exists to see it and fall in love with it. 

34 minutes ago, Nexus said:

What's past is prologue. Indeed, anything hot will cool eventually. Even WALKING DEAD.

For me, it's less about value appreciation, than just getting the chance to own. So back to past is prologue...I'm a huge NEXUS fan. There are pieces I'd LOVE to have in my collection. But they're buried in black hole collections. Owners won't sell. The market for NEXUS art isn't "hot" (don't know that it ever was), but not only is it not cheap, it's also simply not available. Some of these guys have held onto this art for 30 years.

I don't expect NEXUS art to have a resurgence. I don't expect values to go higher. I expect that anything I pay, will be money thrown down a hole. But I don't care. I just want more for my collection.

So for me, for any art, especially modern art, I care more about the chance to own, than appreciation.

Nexus does have the "Steve Rude" factor going for it, however. And I'm with you on Nexus art, which I assume means "Steve Rude" art. 

On 8/11/2017 at 1:25 PM, Nexus said:

There's always some degree of speculation going on in the hobby, no matter the era. Just in terms of what I sell, though, if there is a bubble, it's not a big one. The vast majority of pages I sell are under $500. I sell to a wide range of collectors. There aren't a small number who are hoarding the majority of the art...it's all fairly spread out.

In recent years, the real speculation in modern art went hand-in-hand with the speculation in modern books. For independent books, that would be around 2011-20113, during the second Image boom. Anything new was hot, and a percentage of those who speculated on the books, speculated on the art. That market has been, predictably, diminished greatly. I became a rep in 2014, after that market had already gone away.

So, from what I see now, anyone who's buying the art, is simply a fan of the book it's from. The incentive to speculate has been largely removed. Again, not to say that isn't going on still, to a lesser degree. But, as an example, I've sold over 50 complete issues over the last couple of years. There are some who believe that the reason a complete issue sells, is because the buyer is hoping to profit by breaking the book up himself. Well, to the best of my knowledge, not a single one of those issues has been broken up yet. I do believe they have gone to buyers who are fans/collectors, first. And I believe that major speculators tend to avoid me, anyway. I've never made it a secret that I think speculators are bad for the hobby.

Of course, we'll eventually see the art re-enter the market. Some will do better, some will do worse. Or, to put it another way, no one's going to get rich, but no one's going broke, either. This art is still at a level where the average collector can get a few pieces, and not have to think too much about how it might affect his/her life.

Hey Felix, I did not mean to suggest that the collectors buying this art do not like and enjoy it. I think the hotness of a book actually increases exposure to that books art and artist, so that those pages sell out fast. That's somewhat understandable, but a lot of great art is sitting around because it lacks the exposure of a hot selling title. There is a direct correlation between the hotness of a book (an independent one, not an established superhero book from the Big Two, which have their own dynamics), and its art sales. 

This goes to the whole debate about whether people buy the art for its own aethestic value, or as an investment. I think it's a combination. People will buy NEW art on spec, to a great extent. But, the new art they do buy will be pieces that they also like and enjoy. New art has no market established for it yet, aside from what the brokers or the artists sell it for. I have not seen any of the hot book pages you've sold, for example, go up to be flipped yet. So, people are holding onto them. But, I expect we will start seeing that in 6 months to a year.

17 hours ago, Lee B. said:

I would imagine that the auction didn't see a lot of action in the first few days, so someone contacted the seller privately and asked to "buy it now" for $1,000.  The seller agreed, changed or relisted the auction in coordination with the prospective buyer, and the sale was made.  It wasn't an excellent move for a seller looking to maximize value, but for a seller who needed money and was getting anxious about his auction (even if it had a lot of watchers), it makes a little sense.  Definitely a bummer for other folks, but it happens.  Sorry Drewsky!  Best, Lee

Yes. That's likely what happened. But, probably at the request of the Buyer, who wanted to finance the cover and buy it via eBay rather than private sale.

On 8/12/2017 at 11:16 PM, DJRome said:

Since we're all coming clean, here's why I really bought the What If #5.

One of the most important issues of What If? - from a content standpoint - aside from the great cover art. Congratulations. 

4 hours ago, glendgold said:

You sure? 

Well, aren't you plugged in with the Kirby family? Have they expressed any objections? 

On 8/11/2017 at 1:24 PM, stinkininkin said:

Thanks Bronty, but I was mostly kidding--I made that UXM 268 sale 25 years ago and have long ago moved on.  Life is too short for those kinds of regrets and as you said, I've done quite well over all so there really is nothing for me to complain about, and quite the opposite really.  It's also the nature of the hobby.  Show me one person who's been at this for any length of time  who has not made "mistakes" and I'll show you a unicorn.

Scott

I know a current artist for one of the Big Two that has a first appearance splash page they drew of a character, and is very reluctant to sell it. At least so far.

Fred Ray Supes Cover went for $65K

To me, this entire discussion is academic, because I am priced out of getting any of these pieces. The only way I'd ever get a "best in class" piece if is I get lucky picking up a modern page, and that page ignites in the market for some reason or another.

5 hours ago, delekkerste said:

So, I love the UXM #266 cover (Hi Josh!  I told you I'd have nothing but good things to say about it!)  If price was not a consideration, I'd much rather have the UXM #266 than the FF #77.  Why?  Well, obviously, the UXM cover is much more in my wheelhouse in terms of title/characters and nostalgia.  But, it also goes to a discussion several fellow OA collectors and I were having earlier this week:

Is it better to own, say, a middle of the pack example from a blue chip, classic run (e.g., Byrne X-Men, Miller Daredevil, Romita ASM, Kirby FF), or the undisputed best-in-class example from a run and/or artist that may not be quite as revered/prestigious?  Let's assume your own personal appreciation of both examples were roughly equal.

All three of us in the discussion agreed that it would be better to go for the best in class example (at least most of the time).  It's like this article I once read in a car magazine - when you drive a Nissan GT-R, you are driving Nissan's top of the line car (with supercar performance numbers) and you have to make no apologies for it.  If a GT-R owner stops at a red light and is joined by, say, a Lamborghini Gallardo owner - well, the latter knows that, fancier brand name aside, he knows that he is driving that marque's entry level model, not the top of the line.  Definitely not unimproveable. 

That's how I feel about UXM #266 vs. FF #77.  The owner of the UXM #266 owns the most valuable Andy Kubert example.  Unimproveable.  Major first appearance and a highly sought after issue, one of the most memorable from the era, to boot.  FF #77 is nice, but it's far from top-of-the-line or unimproveable.  Not a key or even very well remembered, frankly.  Not a major villain.  Not twice-up.  Of course, it's Kirby FF, so, it's desirable...but far from best in class.  Call me crazy, but I'd rather have the former. 

Anyway, the conversation earlier in the week centered around whether it would be wise or not to part with one of my covers which could legitimately be called best in class, in a trade for a middle of the pack cover from a more prestigious run by a more prestigious artist.  I thought my friends would have said it was worth it to make that switch.  But, no, they also agreed:  better to own something that it is the best in class (of course, the class has to be at a relatively high level; nobody cares if you have the best cover to a D-list book by a D-list artist) than just a "nice example" of something that may be a notch higher in terms of prestige (again, assuming one otherwise likes the two examples pretty equally).   

Would you rather own the nicest house in a nice, but not particularly special neighborhood? Or an average house in Malibu? 

I personally like the FF 77 cover better. The more I look at it, the more I like it. It's almost like a Kirby FF greatest hits poster.

 I have zero nostalgia interest in Gambit. And the UXM 266 cover doesn't really appeal to me. 

5 hours ago, Panelfan1 said:

seems like you are paying attention to new art - what art is tremendous that you see sitting there and not selling, but that is also a good price?  maybe we are missing out- please point some out. I know Felix reps some great artists, but he sells out all the time. so which artists/series are you noticing as being ignored? Genuinely interested.

Ignored isn't the right word, I don't think. Felix does a great job promoting his guys, but even some good stuff from lesser known or less popular books is still available. 

And I see this repeated on most art broker sites. 

I see a lot of gems that aren't picked up yet. So, I'm not going to tell people about them before I have a chance to get some of them! ;-)

I can't afford that big ticket stuff, so whether that sees a huge market correction is not relevant to my collecting experience. But, the low end prices are preventing more people from entering the hobby, IMHO. The price barrier is a big deal for a lot of comic collectors who would be expected to naturally graduate to OA. 

But, are you going to spend $300-400 on a piece of art, or on 35 new comics? Or a nice slab or two?

The higher entry price point, combined with how much infomation and knowledge required to be a smart OA collector is a huge barrier. 

I already see a speculative bubble on new art, as the stuff from hot books goes fastest. There is a ton of great new art from books that are not the hot new thing that just sits there. Nobody has "nostalgia" for art from a comic that came out two months ago from a relatively new artist.

That's all speculation. And I'm not saying that art isn't good! It is! But there's lots of tremendous stuff that is not selling  

2 hours ago, glendgold said:

Really?  I didn't see that anywhere in the description.

It's in the subtext of the Heroes donation blurb. 

I do want to add that I really enjoy these podcasts as well. And, I Hope I get to meet this cast of characters in person at some point. It seems like such a good group of guys. 

I know I have interacted with a couple here, but I feel somewhat isolated where I am as an OA collector. These podcasts help. 

4 minutes ago, bluechip said:

I type in a long list of excluded words that keeps getting longer as I try to weed out the drek and then somebody dreams up some new way to clog my search results.   You think you're rid of the drek when you've excluded everything from "sexy" to "homage" to "print" to "acetate" and a dozen other words in between, and then you still come up with multiple examples of krrapp that was, for example, "inspired by" Kirby.   

Have you tried searching under "Panel pages" or "covers?" I can see where splashes wouldn't filter out much.

Yeah. That will top $200K. That has everything you want in a Kirby.

1. Classic FF period, or really close

2. Sinnott inks

3. Kirby hardware galore

4. Cover

5. All four of the FF; plus Galactus and the Surfer. Plus Crystal from the Inhumans for an added bonus.

6. Great composition and aethsthetics

7. Imprimatur from the Kirby estate

UPDATE: Yeah. The FF 76 over sold for $170K.

So, I think my $200K guess is probably pretty close.

http://www.comiclink.com/itemdetail.asp?id=975091&showprice=1

11 minutes ago, bluechip said:

Amazing that anyone would use ebay to sell.   It's a great place to buy, provided you are willing to spend countless hours wading through listings, looking for that rare, genuine piece of comic art at a bargain price, which few other people saw because they don't have the time or the patience to scroll past thousands of "sexy" pieces of fan art.

 

You just have to learn how to refine your searches.

17 minutes ago, comix4fun said:

Is it better now?

I ask because, for the longest time, everything was listed with a High Bin or, if it was run as an auction, anything of remotely good quality would get pulled down before it ended. 

Then there were the hundreds of dealer "auctions" with silly BINs on them on pieces that would never sell and the BINs would get increased every year. Like a permanent museum. 

It depends. You have to do some legwork. I stick to pure auctions or BO pages. The BIN's almost literally never sell. They might as well be in a CAF Gallery.

There's several Preacher pages that went up recently, including one from issue #1. (Probably about 40-50% too high, but maybe not!)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/PREACHER-1-ORIGINAL-ART-PAGE-STEVE-DILLON-JESSE-CUSTER-TULIP-CASSIDY-1ST-SOK-/151308633158?hash=item233ab28446:g:AWQAAMXQ1d1TKC6H

You can definitely find stuff.

Here's that Wrightson Starlord. 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/BERNIE-WRIGHTSON-Original-Art-Marvel-Previews-4-Starlord-1st-Appearance-1976-/352096244270?hash=item51fa92522e:g:iHwAAOSwcj5ZTaBE

1 hour ago, O. said:

 

 

https://comicbookinvest.com/2017/07/28/market-report-ebay-auctions-may-june-2017/

 

Exactly. You can still find some great stuff there. And no buyers premium. 

2 hours ago, comix4fun said:

That's probably why I didn't get the same impression as you, I can't remember the last time I checked eBay for artwork. So many prints, posters, art with sky high BINs and NSFW junk clogging the OA areas there that I gave up on it a long time ago.

I didn't realize people still put desirable art on eBay in an auction format anymore.  

 

You'd be surprised. I posted a link to one here a couple months ago. It was the Berni Wrightson inside cover Starlord splash from Marvel Preview 4.  Should have been on CLink or HA. It was nuts.