PhilipB2k17

This whole thread is comical, because Hulk #180 is the true first appearance of Wolverine in a published comic book anyway. 

Wow is this gorgeous. The literal second appearance of Starlord (including the cover!) and a Berni Wrightson classic. 

http://m.ebay.com/itm/352096244270?_mwBanner=1

26 minutes ago, comix4fun said:

I'm not sure how small a cadre it is at this point. The pool for all buyers above $10k a page is drastically smaller than at $2k, obviously. There are certainly niches, and price points, that have less participants than Romita ASM that are most likely far more "distorted" in terms of price per page. 

Romita Sr. on ASM is one of those runs where an artist and a title met and made some magic. It's that nostalgia/sense-memory thing I mentioned. When you've got the flagship character for a publisher, on his flagship title, and all those key stories and characters that Romita Sr. was the one to immortalize in images. Right off the bat, Goblin revealed as Norman Osborn, then 1st appearances of Rhino, Mary Jane, Shocker, Kingpin, and all those well-remembered arcs. 

His art is smooth and solid and he portrayed action well, but most of all he was working on the #1 character's #1 title. That run lasted years and is burned into the memory of so many comic fans. I can see there being competition to own a great example from that run. So even if it wasn't for the few people at the very top of the competition pool I don't see a drastic drop off in value given how broad his reach was. And this is coming from a guy that STILL doesn't own a page from that original Romita Sr. run. 

I think the Romita Spider-Man run is kind of like the Curt Swan Superman run. He became the definitive artists of the character for a long time. So, if you want a representative example of Spider-Man comic art from that period. Romita Sr. is the preferable page to own. 

There have been other memorable artists runs on Spider-Man, obviously. I'd rather own a Ditko page, personally. (Who wouldn't?). Some prefer McFarlane. Others may like Bagley. Ryan Stegman is currently putting his own stamp on the Wall Crawler. It all depends on your preference. 

21 minutes ago, comix4fun said:

I'm not sure how small a cadre it is at this point. The pool for all buyers above $10k a page is drastically smaller than at $2k, obviously. There are certainly niches, and price points, that have less participants than Romita ASM that are most likely far more "distorted" in terms of price per page. 

Romita Sr. on ASM is one of those runs where an artist and a title met and made some magic. It's that nostalgia/sense-memory thing I mentioned. When you've got the flagship character for a publisher, on his flagship title, and all those key stories and characters that Romita Sr. was the one to immortalize in images. Right off the bat, Goblin revealed as Norman Osborn, then 1st appearances of Rhino, Mary Jane, Shocker, Kingpin, and all those well-remembered arcs. 

His art is smooth and solid and he portrayed action well, but most of all he was working on the #1 character's #1 title. That run lasted years and is burned into the memory of so many comic fans. I can see there being competition to own a great example from that run. So even if it wasn't for the few people at the very top of the competition pool I don't see a drastic drop off in value given how broad his reach was. And this is coming from a guy that STILL doesn't own a page from that original Romita Sr. run. 

I like his stuff! And I would certainly not mind owning a nice page from that run. But, a run-of-the mill Spidey page from the Romita run (not one of the historic pages or covers) is wildly overpriced, IMHO. If others are willing to pay that price, then good for them. I'm not. We are also starting to see this on the Trimpe Hulk pages. Really? I like Hulk, and his run was cool and all, but I think that he's wildly overvalued due mainly to him being the co-creator of Wolverine and that two comic-arc of his introduction. There really was nothing all that special about Trimpe's Hulk run, frankly. But, it lasted a long time! And some big character were introduced during it! 

On 6/22/2017 at 5:58 PM, Twanj said:

 

As mentioned earlier, I know it's been a whole year but...I'd rather have this cover 100% of the time

"Incredible Hulk #343, cover by Todd McFarlane – Sold for $23,750 in May 2016 on ComicLink"

Yes. I'd much rather have that Hulk cover. But, I am not a McFarlane fanboy, so I wouldn't be willing to pay anywhere near what it would sell for. The only McFarlane stuff I would even consider are Spidey pages. He's just not my cup of tea. But, that's just my opinion! Obviously, many, many others think differently, or his stuff wouldn't sell for so much.

On 6/12/2017 at 10:37 PM, Panelfan1 said:

Todd Mcfarllane Hulk - Is it worth it yet?

 

So this cover is up on Ebay at the same price for over 4 years now. 65k.

Wondering what others think? 

The market in general has gone up a ton over this time period.  Is this item finally worth the asking price, but now too stale to sell?  Or is it still overpriced?

 

Ebay link

I wouldn't $650 for that cover, much less $65K. As I said in another thread, I buy what is aethetically pleasing to me. And that cover, no matter if it's by McFarlane, is not.

On 5/31/2017 at 10:25 AM, Jordysnordy said:

Godzilla 2 was the 1st comic I ever remember reading as a child and the title has always had a soft spot in my heart. The stories weren't bad but Herb's Trimpe's art captivated me. I was fortunate enough to buy the splash page to issue 14 from HA in 2004.

Yes. Love those 70's Godzilla pages. Have been looking for some for a while. People hold onto them, and they are very hard to find. Great piece!

13 hours ago, drdroom said:

I don't think Romita Sr. is really very good, but I would be truly thrilled with a good Spidey page from the run that I bought off the stands (roughly #50-#70). If they were priced where a Colan DD page is I would likely have one. But for what they cost now, no way, even if I had it. You can buy immortal cartoon masterpieces for that money by Kirby, Foster, Herriman etc. 

I  have a Roger Brand page that I love for the pure underground vibe it represents, and a couple Golden Age pages that are crudely drawn but historically rich. I have a Kirby page that is great and nostalgiac but damaged by Colletta inks. I have a late Kirby that is past his drawing prime but the scripting is more brilliant than ever. 

So no, no problem to admit flaws in the artwork. Keeps things interesting. 

The problem with this hobby, IMHO, is that a few well-financed collectors can distort a market and create bubbles. I think Romita Spider-Man art is one of those situations. I actually like his stuff, maybe more than you do, but I do think it's wildly overpriced due to the efforts of a small cadre of collectors who are obsessed with it. When you have collectors that just pay whatever a piece if priced at, just because they can and its a unique piece, than all rationality goes out the window.  There are probably thousands of Romita Sr. Spidey pages out there. I can't believe that those pages are in such high demand at the current price point, except for a few collectors.

Here's my 2 cents, for what it's worth. 

I buy art that I find aesthetically pleasing. To me. It may not be pleasing to someone else, but they are not the ones buying it. I am. If I like it, that's all that matters. I do show my pieces to my wife, who sometimes likes it, and sometimes doesn't. But, in the end I have to like what I have. 

For example, I have been looking at some pages by James Stokoe lately, that are really terrific. I bought a nice page of his from Godzilla in Hell #1.  I loved the intricate line work of it and the cool Godzilla image. I could care less if he's a big name popular artist, or not. I really like his stuff.  It's a published comic book art page of a character that I like, by an artist who has a very cool, unique style that I enjoy. I realize that his work may not be the cup of tea for other collectors. But, I like it, so that's all that matters.

There are some big name, expensive artists who I do not like, and probably wouldn't buy a page of. John Byrne is one. Maybe I'd spring for a cool X-Men page, if I could get it for a decent price. But, I an not a huge fan of his art, and never have been. Even back in the 70's and 80's when he was regarded as a superstar artist, I never got it. Todd McFarlane is another one. Sure, he re-invented how Spider-Man is drawn, basically. And some of those images are cool. But, for the money it would take to own one of those pages, it's it's really worth it to me. 

A Brian Bolland or Dave Stevens page? Yep. Absolutely worth every penny. To me. 

As for Kirby, I have a newfound appreciation for his style, especially, the early to late 60's stuff when he was at the top of his artistic game. Was he technically proficient as an artist, or line drawer? No. Neal Adams called him a "primitive," (not meant as an insult, because he loves Kirby, obvious). But, his storytelling sense, and dynamic action was perfectly suited to the medium, and reinvented it, frankly. His imagination was second-to-none, and is creativity was off the charts. He's legitimately a genius. Are there some pages that are clunky and a bit schlocky by Jack? Yep. I wouldn't just buy any old page by him. I would want one that had his classic magic. And, yes, it would be pricey, but it would be worth it. Again, worth it...to me.

And let me add that there is a difference when you are considering the quality of an artists, between someone who is very highly technically skilled, who then ventures off into provactive, or experimental territory (see Bill Sienkiewicz, for example) and someone who really was never that skilled. Some people really don't like Bill's impressionistic stuff. Others think its brilliant. I'm in the latter category, but some others may not be. But, in that case, you know an artists is trying something new, and is not just a hack. The same applies to a lot of Frank Miller's later work. 

So, to sum up. I am not going to buy a piece of art that I do not enjoy, and find pleasing to look at. No matter who it is by, whether it be Frank Frazetta, Jack Kirby, or Joe Schmo. But, again, each person can do what they want. That's just me.

5 hours ago, ESeffinga said:

Nostalgia is a HUGE issue with guitarists. They HATE innovation and change. The part about Gibson's features change is a big example of this. It's not a literal direct parallel, but there are massive similarities to do with the aging out of guitar collectors/players. Especially where you mention current musicians affect sales. Similarly to the way Gene's been arguing for years that if new kids don't pick up comics and develop nostalgia for it, it can't hold up the market.

People do collect guitars, both new and vintage, and the cream of the crop (something like a Les Paul Burst from 1958-60) can cost roughly 250K up to a bit over a Mil for real uber-trophy examples. In this case, instruments owned by celebs used to record "classic" albums/tracks for instance. So it's interesting, to me anyway, that even the ceilings are roughly equivalent in both rarity and price.

Guitars like OA, were up until the 70s, a part of the "process" of making a new artform. Many, expecially the oldest, were chewed up and damaged in the process. It was the boomers that turned keeping parts of the process undamaged, or even collecting it into a hobby.

And most folks would tell you the new instruments aren't worth hanging onto, it's the true vintage stuff that's where it's at. And once a 70s era Stratocaster was considered garbage. But as with everything, their prices have risen dramatically because of what they are, age and rarity. I'm sure people can easily think of comic artist equivalents. Work that people used to turn their nose up at, and yet have managed to rise with everything else.

Interestingly, guitars are more often like Comic OA than other durable goods.

 

There once was a point in time when Sunday color comic sections were of huge cultural importance. Now, people under 30 don't even read a physical newspaper anymore, let alone the comic strips from them. But, original comic strip art is still marketable. And Hipster culture is really into "vintage" stuff. An OA is as "vintage" as it gets. Its authentic, and unique. 

19 hours ago, Bronty said:

I think the complete book will sell at a figure that will be just enough to make a potential dealer/collector potentially not want to bother with the hassle of splitting it up.

I.e.  the default underbidders will be resellers and the difficulty of resale will affect the underbids. 

Where that line lies will depend on the specifics as you said, but I'd guess... I dunno, 80 or 85% of the broken up value is what my gut is telling me?   Depending.

There's an economy of scale that benefits the seller of a full comic. One commission on the sale. One shipping cost, and only one shipment, etc. Therefore, they can take a "discount" from the per-page sales value. The problem is knowing what the "per page" sales value is on a whole book sale because there are no sales comps from that book to compare it to. You have to get a little but more speculative.

I think any bidder on a full book would probably try and estimate a per page value, and then extrapolate that to determine a potential bidding price, but then discounting it a certain percentage accordingly.

On 5/31/2017 at 3:28 AM, Flambit said:

I agree that it does seem like there is probably no real new blood entering the hobby though seeing a movie or television show based on certain characters, making them hot.  As someone pointed out somewhere, why would a person introduced to these characters though film or tv buy OA, of all things, which is such a niche hobby?  Especially since it's so nostalgia driven for a lot of us.

But is it possible there's this huge fresh to market aspect that is creating, maybe, a false positive uptick?  I mean prices are getting driven up because new pieces are being pulled out of collections though the promise of higher sales from movie/tv visibility that have been unseen by the general collecting public.

(I count myself among the general public: that is, I'm not part of any inner OA circles, and the only OA I see for sale is at the quarterly auctions and SDCC, maybe caf now and then, maybe the list now and then.  And I'm really only ever aware of new, big pieces emerging into our public collecting consciousness though the Most Comment page on caf, which I check almost daily.)

But prior to the Infinity War rumors, I never remember seeing so many Starlin pages for sale!  Now, maybe they were and I just wasn't aware.  Nor do I remember seeing so many IM 55 pages show up.  It seems like there's one or more every quarter now.  And now that they are so visible, is it driving people into a frenzy to be a must-own page?  

I'd never seen that Drax IM 55 splash before, for example, although I'm sure some of you probably have, so perhaps other general collectors who have deep pockets are going to impulse buy?  Golden age of Marvel Studios + certain unseen pieces + $?

And then add to that fresh to market pieces from black holes that most everyone hasn't seen?  $$$?

 

I have a theory. I am seeing OA prices across the board, kind of going up just in the last year. My theory is that a lot of older comic book collectors who are in their prime earning years are discovering Original Art and moving into collecting that. Why? The rise of the convention scene. The pop culture convention scene has exploded over the past several years, and comic book creators, particularly artists, have become minor pop stars at these things. Every convention has an artists alley. And if you are there with your kids to look for comics to fill holes in your collection, and you find out that Lee Weeks, or Howard Chaykin, or someone else you like is there and they are selling art, maybe you pick up a piece or two.

Also, the rise of the internet makes buying and selling OA easier than ever. Before, one of the ONLY ways to get it was to go to a convention and buy it from the artists. Or, if your local comic shop had a few pages, you could buy it there. Hell, I bet some folks got into OA just from doing searches for comic books on eBay and saw a few OA pages pop up.

On 5/26/2017 at 11:12 PM, SquareChaos said:

Considering the question at hand, if you could perform the experiment again after Cable actually appeared in a movie, I think that'd be interesting. Obviously you can't, but maybe whomever purchased it might have a similar idea.

Exactly what I was thinking. When Cable is actually on screen as a character, that page will go up in price. Not sure by how much, but there will be more interest in it. 

On 5/26/2017 at 8:30 PM, comicwiz said:

Nothing moves as fast as comics, in terms of instantaneous price increases the second a ----script, character or movie announcement occurs. It's really like nothing I've seen in any other collecting category, with the rare exception of sports cards in the early 90's, and more recently, Star Wars merchandise from the time Disney acquired the franchise leading up to the release of The Force Awakens. And neither of these examples were anywhere close in comparison to comics when speaking about rapid increase in demand and asking prices that actually sell at those insane asking prices.

It's a long winded way of saying using comics as a comparison is setting the bar high.

With that out of the way, I think demand around comic art can be influenced by movies. I've definitely seen it with Star Wars comic art.

I've also seen art being marketed around upcoming movie releases, but whether the seller is getting that opportunistic asking price hike is another story.

Also, OA value is somewhat influenced by the desirability of the book its for. If the comic it's from goes up in value, the OA probably will to. Not sure if it's a 1:1 ratio, but there is definitely going to be a relationship between the value of the book, and the value of the original art from that book.

On 5/26/2017 at 5:11 PM, thethedew said:

Roll on MICRONAUTS movies!

If you have any 80's Micronauts (Golden or Guice) pages you are interested in parting with, let me know.

15 hours ago, Michael Browning said:

I just said earlier that I was surprised a Barreto WW cover -- and not an image I think is very dynamic -- sold so high. Aside from the DC Comics Presents cover featuring the first Superboy Prime, I wonder if any other Barreto covers have hit this mark.

Baretto is an underrated artists from an era (80's) that is getting more scrutiny and interest for OA. It's the tale end of the Bronze age, and interim period before the 90's collapse when art was still ink on pencils, and word balloons were not added digitally. I have a nice New Teen Titans title spalsh by him. Plus, he's deceased, so there is not as much output.

On 5/26/2017 at 6:07 PM, comix4fun said:

Agreed. The Nyx thing. It's not just the character, it's the first appearance of the character. Those types of pieces have their own momentum.

With Batman, Spider-Man, Superman, WW, etc. If their first appearance cover art came to market you'd see enormous prices, obviously, that have little to do with movies other than the fact that they are giant globally licensed franchises front and center in the collective pop culture consciousness. 

The movie/tv bump is far more prevalent in comics than artwork. 

I disagree with that, somewhat. See, Walking Dead as a classic example. The prices paid for WD art are nowhere near what they would be if there was no hit TV show. The same is true for Preacher. I also think Perez (in particular) Wonder Woman pieces saw a decent uptick.  

22 hours ago, chrisco37 said:

They might do that.  They've already established that there are (at least) 3 Jokers, right?   

She could kill one.  Become the new Joker for a bit.  Then one of the others comes back to challenge her.  

To modify my story idea even further, Harley doesn't actually KILL Joker. She imprisons him, a la Kathy Bates in Misery, and THEN takes on his persona, making people believe she killed him. The hook on the story is that Batman finds out that Joker is still alive, and has to wrestle with whether to rescue him. Eventually, he does, and he and Joker team-up to take down Harley, who has become an epic menace as bad, if not worse, than Joker. 

While Joker appreciates and respects what she's done, he is also pissed off that she imprisoned him, and is angry that she's getting all the credit for mayhem he usually gets.

On 5/25/2017 at 1:42 PM, chrisco37 said:

Great observation.    As I said earlier, with regards to my daughter, DC has been pushing the DC Superhero Girls merchandise.  In this line of products, Harley is definitely in the "good guy" camp.  

To me she's the Joker's GF.  To my daughter she's a superhero. 

Case in point, Warners is promoting a brand new Batman Cartoon (via Bruce Timm) where Batman and Nightwing team up with Harley Quinn. They just released the trailer. http://heroichollywood.com/batman-harley-quinn-trailer-1/

On 4/8/2017 at 2:08 PM, Morgan0714 said:

Here are the pics.

Please let me know your thoughts.

Number 3 and number 6 look more legit than the others. But, I'm not an expert.

16 minutes ago, delekkerste said:

I'm more reticent about casually deeming things worth six figures (or even mid-to-high 5 figures) just because we've seen some crazy results in recent years.  There are plenty of better images by better artists that have sold for less than those amounts.  There are plenty of major first appearances that have sold for less than 6-figures as well.  Nobody knows if HQ will be popular for decades to come.  Once the novelty wears off, and she just becomes an established supporting character and people have moved on to other Halloween costumes, will BA 12 still be worth the $150K+ that people claim?  It's the perceived heat and sizzle that causes people to think that BA 12 is worth that much.

Objects in the mirror may be farther from krazy prices than they appear. 

This misses the point of this discussion. The question was, what would BA12 bring NOW at auction? Not would it bring 10 years from now...or 20. I think the owner of that cover should probably sell it now, as it is likely at or near its peak value.

1 hour ago, BCarter27 said:

If I were DC, I would have her kill her abusive ex boyfriend. She would be the one to do what Batman was never willing to do. This would cement her as his new number 1 villain.

She is in a very grey anti-hero area right now that may or may not be sustainable (from a story point of view). There are some good essays around the web discussing this, but it is all wrapped up in DC trying to reconcile her merch popularity with her dubious story origins.

An epic storyline would be Harley killing the Joker, and taking over his persona and becoming the new Joker. 

2 hours ago, tfish said:

so what say you on Iron Man #55 cover?

More than the Drax title splash from the same issue. Not sure how much more. 25%?

13 minutes ago, Pete Marino said:

i have no clue what you're saying.  We are talking about character, properties, and their popularity and where they fit in to pop culture.

i have no horse in this race, but you guys are so out of touch if you don't think Harley Quinn is one of the biggest comic properties in the world right now.  Is she Deadpool?  sure, no, but to put her in that same tier isn't out of order.

I think Deadpool is more popular in the comic book community than Harley, but Harley has more break out appeal outside of that.  Case in point: "Harley" is rocketing up the baby naming charts. https://www.babycenter.com/baby-names-harley-6795.htm And it coincides with her introduction as a character, and then explodes with the publicity for Suicide Squad.

Even the name "Harley-Quinn" is exploding.

Granted, nobody is going to name their kid "Deadpool," but still. Comic books are still a male dominated hobby, so it makes sense that people think Deadpool is more popular. But, from my point of view, I think the NM 98 cover is awful from an artistic standpoint anyway, and I think the BA12 cover is more aesthetically pleasing. But that's me. I am not a Leifeld fan. So, of the two, I'd rather have BA12.

1 minute ago, delekkerste said:

Please, please, please let this cover come to auction...  

 

C'mon - why would anyone outside of the comic/OA hobby want to pay $250-$500K for this piece?  People often talk about pieces transcending the hobby, like the Hulk #180 page, and, invariably, they always end up in the hands of a usual suspect.

Underground private OA art market between millionaires and billionaires?  OK, I'm getting off this crazy train... 

Dude, seriously. You know lots of high end pieces change hands without ever coming up for auction.