PhilipB2k17

One of my pet peeves is a dealer keeping SOLD pieces up on their website. Now, it's one thing to use certain marquee pieces you've sold as advertising. But, run of the mill stuff should be pulled from your web inventory when sold. It's only fair to the person who bought it, and it doesn't mislead people.

On 6/26/2017 at 10:05 AM, JadeGiant said:

Yeah, any art that I was in a time payments situation should not be listed as “for sale” IMO. It makes people think the art is available and you get the feeling that the dealer might be willing to bump you if a better deal came along. As long as the buyer is meeting the terms set forth by the dealer the art should be listed as “on hold” IMHO. I bought a piece this way and the showed as on hold the entire time I was making payments.

If you agreed on terms, a final price and installments....and you are adhering to those terms, you have a sales contract. If they break the contract, you can sue them for damages. You may want to put into your agreement to pay for the piece a stipulation that it must be listed as "on Hold" or pulled entirely from their website unless you do not make your payments on time. 

28 minutes ago, comix4fun said:

Maybe it's me being an old man at this point, but I've never heard of this cover artist. That's always been a driver of what I'd bid on a piece. 

Fair enough. 

13 minutes ago, malvin said:

Yeah, I'm not sold that any modern cover featuring a popular marvel character on a cool image is automatically 1K.

Malvin

Well, as I said, someone would disagree with me. As with all things OA, your mileage may vary.

You can't buy a Marvel cover these days for less than $500. Not unless the seller is truly desperate.

10 minutes ago, Lazyboy said:

So are you saying that Superman: The Man of Steel 17 (showing only Doomsday's fully covered arm) isn't Doomsday's first appearance or Superman's Pal, Jimmy Olsen 134 (showing only Darkseid's unusually depicted head) isn't Darkseid's first appearance? Because they clearly are, just like Incredible Hulk 180 is Wolverine's first appearance.

When you ignore how stories work, everything you say is meaningless. Appearances, first or otherwise, are not all equal.

Yes, Wolverine appears in Hulk 180, but it's a lame, last-panel teaser that was only included to entice readers to buy the next issue. It adds nothing to the first chapter and the scene is repeated at the beginning of the second issue of the two-part story.

Galactus has a presence in FF 48 that is far greater than his single depiction in the final panel.

I started a thread a little while ago about this general subject and nobody responded.

Wasn't there a whole thread on JO 134? 

when you are distinguishing between the first "cameo" and first "full" appearance of a character then you're just trying to justify why your copy of the latter is worth more. 

Its possible Jock still owns that cover himself. He turned it into a limited edition poster a few years ago. 

9 hours ago, SquareChaos said:

I would not be at all surprised if it went for 2x that or more if he tossed it on eBay with a reasonable starting bid 

Yes. That's the secret. You don't want to set too high a starting bid for a piece. If you are concerned about selling it too cheap, let the bidding start at $1, but set a reserve price at the minimum you are willing to part with it. You want people to get into a bidding war over it.

A) It's a cover

B) It's of a popular, recognizable Marvel character

C) It's a pretty cool image.

The going rate for such modern covers is in the $1K-2K range. I'd say closer to $1000 for that one. Probably the minimum would be around $750-800, if you hit the market at the wrong time.

If it were an inside splash, then the other estimates would be more accurate. Published covers get significant premiums. 

I think eBay would be the easiest way to sell it. If you do, post a photo of the published cover with it, and maybe even offer to give away a copy of the comic with the purchase. It's only a few extra bucks, but that is always a nice little extra for anyone buying the art. Plus, it allows people to visualize and compare the OA with the final published cover.

All of the above comes with the caveat that I'm not an OA valuation expert, and these are just my opinions. Others may not agree, and probably don't! So, don't sue me if you put it up, and only get $500 for it. 

9 minutes ago, bronze johnny said:

So now it's okay for you to define the parameters for what an appearance is? What happened to your axiom about an appearance being an appearance and how we shouldn't try to complicate things? Again, it comes down to interpretation and comic book collectors like myself and the history of this art form has already decided what Wolverine's first appearance is- Hulk 181. 

There is absolutely no dispute about Wolverine's first official appearance as a Marvel character in a Marvel story. It's Hulk #180.

If you are buying 181 because it's the first full Wolvie story and has a classic cover, great! If you're buying it because it's his 1st app, well....

6 minutes ago, bronze johnny said:

So now it's okay for you to define the parameters for what an appearance is? What happened to your axiom about an appearance being an appearance and how we shouldn't try to complicate things? Again, it comes down to interpretation and comic book collectors like myself and the history of this art form has already decided what Wolverine's first appearance is- Hulk 181. 

First Appearance in continuity. 

13 hours ago, ADAMANTIUM said:

I think time will tell and believe it's too soon to tell how it will shake out...

I do agree that something will happen with IH 180-182 and prices etc of which will hold; I think the best analogy is the FF 48-50, and based on that whichever you'd rather have of those is the way it'll shake out; even though it's only 6 years earlier. 

Just an observation  

I do think that Wolverine is more valued than Silver Surfer; but if 2.0's of IH 181 end up being $200-$250 like FF 48          HeAdS WiLl RoLl  hahhah

I think the value of #FF 48 is reviving mostly because of Galactus. And if they ever get the Surfer or Galavtus done right in films or TV (or into the MCU) that book will go way back up. 

But that book is another great example of my point. At one point 48 was much more valuable than 181. Now it's nowhere close. Times and tastes change. The popularity and importance of characters change. 

10 hours ago, bronze johnny said:

Then we might just as well count appearances in in house comic book advertisements as a character's first appearance. Action Comics 1 would not be the first appearance of Superman if we were to simply take an appearance as is without further definition- the reason why the vast consensus of comic book collectors, and comic book history itself, has defined Hulk 181 as the first appearance of Wolverine. 

 

If Superman showed up in the last panel of, say, Detective comics 18, and was identified as Superman as an officially debuted character, it would be more analogous than an advertisement for Action #1. 

But Superman may be a special case given that he was literally the first superhero. So his 1st appearance is historic. 

Technically, Spider-Man's black costume debuted in Marvel Age, not ASM #252 or MTU #141. 

8 hours ago, Wolverinex said:

Do people think Cerebus will ever get popular again?  Or is it pretty much at its peak....

It depends on Dave Sim. He's currently putting out Cerebus in Hell. If, at some point, Sim allows the character to be used again by other creators, it may revive contemporary interest. Or if he's turned into a cartoon, etc. 

7 hours ago, Readcomix said:

I don't get how everyone doesn't get tired of debating this. Yes, Wolverine appears in the story in 180. It's his first appearance in continuity. The market doesn't care, vis a vis 181 and its full story and classic cover. But for those who feel so strongly that the fact of the cameo will overtake 181 one day, it's a cheap enough hedge. And, like Galactus in FF48, it is a cool and powerful singular panel. Room for both Hulks in my collection.  

Not directed at you BronzeJohnny or anyone in particular, just quoting the most recent post in this part of the discussion (180/181).

There are plenty of comics that "the market" valued at one point, then shifted later. I don't think #181 will ever be non-valuable. But at some point the bubble will burst on that book. 

7 hours ago, Readcomix said:

I thought you were going to rhetorically ask what will propel aardvark Conan in 20 years???

Cerebus is so much more vast & complex than a Conan parody. Might as well as the same thing about Groo. 

1 hour ago, bronze johnny said:

It's a question for interpretation. FF 48 is the first part of a story titled "The Coming of Galactus." FF 48 has the first appearance of the Herald of Galactus. Galactus cannot be separated from his Herald for the purposes of the Galactus Trilogy. Yes, Galactus appears in a panel that fulfills his "Coming." He has arrived. You can look at a panel and see less if you want to separate it from the essence of a story if that's how you want to interpret Galactus' appearance in FF 48 and you have a right to do so. As for Wolverine, if Hulk 180 had a story about the"Coming of Wolverine," I'd be inclined to then agree with your defining the single panel appearance without looking at the story as his first. It's not. 

Yes, there are exceptions to your "single panel takes all rule."

A first appearance is just that, an "appearance." The first time the fully realized character appears in print, in a recognizable form. That's IH #180 for Wolverine. 

When you have to invent rules and stipulations, and explanations for why a first appearance isn't one, then the term has lost all meaning. 

On 5/29/2017 at 3:58 AM, rjrjr said:

It is just a matter of time before another writer comes along and puts those stories back into "continuity".  Good information by the way.  The head holding was because of the Bendis.

Just curious, do readers consider the stories from the time Spider-man was married to Mary Jane Watson to Brand New Day as being out of continuity now?  That's got to be a tough one for collectors to reconcile. 

Of course, the original Guardian of the Galaxy in comics are now part of the MCU, which was outside their timeline in the Marvel continuity. It's all fluid.

On 5/29/2017 at 3:46 AM, rjrjr said:

If you read Marvel Preview #7 and Incredible Hulk #271, #271 reads more like a prototype.  That has to be one of the worst keys to reads ever.  it is up there with Star Wars #107.

If #271 was the Rocket's 1st appearance, there never would have been a 2nd appearance.

I wouldn't rule out the importance of Marvel Spotlight #6 though.  There are many, many collectors who do not regard non comic book pamphlets as the 1st appearance of any character.  Numerous examples include: Marvel Previews #7, Marvel Illustrated Version of the Empire Strikes Back, Savage Tales #1, Deadly Hands of Kung Fu #22, Mystery Comics Digest #5, etc.  Marvel Spotlight #6 will definitely get noticed eventually.  It is just a book that is fairly plentiful which I think holds it back at the moment.

"There are many, many collectors who do not regard non comic book pamphlets as the 1st appearance of any character."

Which is silly, of course. Especially in the case of graphic novels or graphic pulp magazines like Savage Tales. 

1 hour ago, THB said:

PhillipB2K17. Completed GPA sales show Hulk 180 has been trending down the last three years in comparison to Hulk 181. That being said Cerebus # 1 is a more valuable key in high grade IMO. We are not debating available quantity or desirability.

I agree with you on Cerebus #1. 

1 hour ago, THB said:

PhillipB2K17. Completed GPA sales show Hulk 180 has been trending down the last three years in comparison to Hulk 181. That being said Cerebus # 1 is a more valuable key in high grade IMO. We are not debating available quantity or desirability.

Great. Buy up as many IH #180's as you can now, before they spike again. I'm sure all the people who bought up Action #1 and Detective #27 30 years ago at a discount are very happy they did. And all the people who paid a big premium for Marvel Comics #1 are not as happy.

18 minutes ago, Lazyboy said:

Keep dreaming. Wolverine is easily the biggest character with a lame teaser appearance in an issue before his full appearance. He is not comparable to characters who made their debuts in stories in which they were the feature.

There's a reason why Hulk 181 is the issue used when Marvel has reprinted key issues in a standalone format, like this or this. Even Marvel isn't dumb enough to reprint Hulk 180 by itself and try to sell it as Wolverine's first appearance.

We'll see. I pointed out the 1st Appearance of Galactus being exactly the same - a one panel cameo - in FF #48. Everyone on Planet Earth regards that as his 1st Appearance, not the first full length story in which  he was featured,  FF #49. People who have spent a gazillion dollars on IH #181 have a vested interest in propping up that book as the more valuable one. But, it's not Wolvy's 1st appearance. Indeed, because of that cockamamie discrepancy, the whole Comics collecting industry had to start differentiating between a 1st cameo, and a 1st full appearance. Just to keep the IH #181 fanboys from having a meltdown.

I'm just telling you that eventually, maybe 20 or 30 years from now - but eventually - Hulk #180 will be more valuable. And I say this as a fan of Wolverine, who used to own a copy of #IH 181. I bought it back in the early 1980's. But, even then, I wondered why it was considered his 1st appearance, when it was clearly not.

Here's what will happen. IH #181 has become too expensive for the average collector to obtain in any kind of a decent grade. So, they started bidding up #182. Now, people are realizing that the true 1st app is #180, and it's starting to be bid up too. Its far more obtainable in a decent grade. Eventually it will reach a critical mass, and it will flip. 

Here are two pages from Four Color #173 - a Flash Gordon one shot originally published in 1947. They are by Paul Norris. I've attached the published pages for reference. 

The long term prospects of a comic's value are really interesting. I remember when I first started collecting as a kid, the most valuable Comic was Marvel Comics #1. I know that sounds ridiculous now, but it was more valueable that Action #1 and Detective 27. Why? Because Marvel was hot and all the collectors put a premium on anything produced by them, even going back to the Golden age.

I remember thinking, at the time, even though I was just a kid, that it seemed weird that the 1st Appearance of Superman was not the most valuable comic in the world. Obviously, over time, people changed their opinions, and the hobby moved with it. I think that will happen with Hulk #181 eventually too. That comic is in a major bubble. I think it will pop. It's not the first appearance of Wolverine. Its not sustainable. Just like the Marvel Comics #1 bubble popped (relative to the great DC 1st Appearances, and Captain America #1), and like how Motion Pictures Funnies Weekly's bubble popped. And like how Whiz #2's bubble popped as Captain Marvel faded out of memory as a major character.

Wolverine will still be a popular and iconic character for decades. But, Hulk #180 will be more valuable, in the long run, than #181.

I should think a CGC graded Cerebus #1 would command a larger than normal premium for CGC books, simply because there are so many counterfeits out there. Not only that, even the counterfeit(!) Cerebus #1's sell at a high dollar number, because there are so few Cerebus #1's out there.

On 6/2/2017 at 11:35 PM, bronze johnny said:

If your saying that Hulk 180 deserves the respect for Wolverine showing up in the last panel then I agree. Hulk 181 is the definitive first appearance of the Wolverine nevertheless. Defining an appearance requires more than showing up in one panel.

What's the first appearance of Galactus? FF #48? or FF #49?

Everyone agrees it's FF #48, even though he only makes an appearance in the last panel. Just...like...Wolverine in Hulk #180. 

It is absolutely comical to claim Hulk #181 is his first App. It's not. It's just really collectible because it has that iconic cover, and his first full length story. If people want to pay a premium for that, that's great. But stop pretending it's Wolvie's 1st appearance.