Mrs Muggins-migration

Spot on. Comics should be fun. Marvel have killed it with greed. When ASM had 49,000 variants for the v3 relaunch I knew the game was up. Without being over dramatic, I feel that everything great about comics is in the past.

They are, but only by the very discerning.

My understanding has been that the interior of the Pence books are exactly the same as the US versions. The only difference is the cover with the price variation. What other differences are there? Curious... There's the price variation and removal of the date. And at the bottom of the indicia it states "distributed in the U.K. by Thorpe And Porter". And that's it. ....or L Miller, depending on the title. Early Pence copies have the price in Pence (obviously!), the cover date removed and an additional line at the foot of the indicia as above (Thorpe & Porter or L Miller). Then the cover date stopped being removed. Then the additional indicia line ceased. Then the cover headings changed to "Marvel All-Colour Comics" so as not to clash with B&W British reprints. Then the final run of 20p Pence copies had just the cover price difference. So a few incidental changes throughout the history, but with the one overriding constant, the cover price. Hence "UK Pence Price Variants" Nice breakdown of what I mentioned. (I didn't want to check all that and then type it out ) Now give us the dates for all those changes. Honestly, I don't think they're attractive to collect at all. I'm not interested in them and only own one. I just don't like it when people apply incorrect classifications to things, whether it's an attempt to belittle them or inflate their importance. Ok, I'll do it at the weekend

Danger, Will Robinson!!! Controversy ensues... I think it should be completionist, because a perfectionist wants perfection and a completionist wants completion... but the definition of completist is the same... I just don't see anyone calling people wanting perfection perfectists. I'm a Perfectist me! Heh, heh. Completionist is such a mouthful. I don't like it. How about "Nutter"?

I feel for you. I was the same way with Star Wars comics, then Marvel got the license and ... well, let's just say I've had to adjust the way I collect comics. None of the comic publisher want completist. They feel they can survive on events, variants, and gender changes to established characters. Your loyalty does not matter to them. They don't care. Prices for comics have risen such that they are making more today selling to the dwindling base than they did a year ago. They'll make up for the lost collectors with higher prices and yes, even more variants. If you enjoy collecting ASM, I wouldn't sell off what you already have. Buy the regular issue if you like reading the title. Buy those variants you like. And take solace in the fact that there is probably not a complete ASM collection with all the variants anyway. Your collection won't be any different. I would say if you're an ASM completionist, just go up to issue 700. If you happen to get all the variants and reprints, then start aiming for the 'other' variants - get the price variants, Whitman/directs, the newsstands, the ones that come with toys, the foreign editions, store variants. Its enough chasing to last you a lifetime, but they're not constantly printing more variants to chase so you can at least feel like you're making progress. And you get to 'discover' new variants to chase, instead of being FORCED into chasing manufactured variants. I agree, stop at 700. One of the reasons the 667 Dell Otto commands such extreme prices is the fact that ASM completists have to have it. So when it comes up - infrequently as it does - they all have to fight hard for it. It's less about the intrinsic value of the book, and more about the hole it leaves on your wants list. Completists are a little barmy by design, and that barminess extends to paying ridiculous sums for the holy grails. But they're artificially manufactured grails. This new 1:1000 will likely be the final nail in the coffin for many an ASM collector. Marvel are taking the rise and, coupled with the lack of quality in the book itself, the purchase will leave some feeling used. If I could pass down one piece of advice to a new collector it would be "never be a completist". Unless you're very, very wealthy. While we're at it - completist or completionist?

I like this person Gadzukes thinking. We need more of this kind of analysis

My understanding has been that the interior of the Pence books are exactly the same as the US versions. The only difference is the cover with the price variation. What other differences are there? Curious... There's the price variation and removal of the date. And at the bottom of the indicia it states "distributed in the U.K. by Thorpe And Porter". And that's it. ....or L Miller, depending on the title. Early Pence copies have the price in Pence (obviously!), the cover date removed and an additional line at the foot of the indicia as above (Thorpe & Porter or L Miller). Then the cover date stopped being removed. Then the additional indicia line ceased. Then the cover headings changed to "Marvel All-Colour Comics" so as not to clash with B&W British reprints. Then the final run of 20p Pence copies had just the cover price difference. So a few incidental changes throughout the history, but with the one overriding constant, the cover price. Hence "UK Pence Price Variants"

In the overall scheme of my life & loves, it's not important at all ! However, in the context of the comic hobby which I love and spend many hours researching etc I do feel that many of us are trying to right a historical wrong - in that for many years comics with pence prices were considered "reprints" and somehow inferior - the actual truth, is that they are first prints too (same American presses, same time) and ironically, almost certainly much, much rarer than their American counterparts (silver and early bronze at least) There is no campaign to make the hobby think they're better than cents or worth more than cents, simply to say "this is the reality" - then people can be better informed, and the market will repond accordingly (and has done) Pence keys in high grade are seriously rare - I only wish I'd bought more even 5 years ago, never mind back in the 80s when you could get a pence AF 15 for £200 (!) While factually and logically, they are PENCE PRICE VARIANTS, CGC calling them "UK Editions" is not a big deal. But it is inaccurate. (Graded UK only original-material comics like Cap Britain and Marvelman are also called "UK Editions", which adds to the inconsistency) Exactly. I like this man EwanUK

Hello SECollector. You may ask, yes. In truth, it's only important to me in context. I just fancied a bit of good natured sparring with Jaydog if the truth be told on a subject that interests me. I stand by my views on terminology, but I'm not really that fussed if others - including CGC - have a different view. I don't think "variant" carries any greater significance as a term either. Looking back over the post, Jaydog has argued his case over and over. To balance the books, will you be asking him why his view is so important to him? I'm new to this but I think the emoticon I'm supposed to now use is

Variants of the cents priced versions ? But I don't think we're going to agree on that, which is fine. I always say, friends should be able to disagree with each other and still be friendly. -J. Hello all. Mind if I join this debate? I don't like "UK Edition" as I think that term better suits UK reprint titles such as Spider-Man Comics Weekly, or Mighty World of Marvel. To clearly identify that a comic is a first printing US produced original with a Pence price then the word "variant" needs to be used. So the logical term, given that the key variance is the price, would be "Pence Price Variant" in my opinion. I think CGC have got it wrong. "UK Edition" is a loose term. "Pence Price Variant" is a clear, factually accurate term. The same follows for "Canadian Dollar Price Variant" and "Australian Dollar Price Variant". These are the terms I use and promote when and wherever I can. I get what you're saying, but the currency type is not the only difference they have with the regular north American copies, so I can't get behind what you're saying. CGC has it spot on, as is IMO. -J. The key variance, as I said, is the price. Additional indicia distribution data and amended cover headers are incidental. CGC have indeed got it wrong, but I hope they will one day see the light Jaydog.

They are indeed Lonzilla. I have always been puzzled by US collectors stance on Pence Price Variants. I think everyone knows that they are first printings now. Indeed, some believe they were printed before the Cents copies. You would think that once a collector has completed his or her Cents run, the next logical step would be variants. Collectors go after 30/35 Cent Variants, Mark Jewelers, printing errors usually because they have run out of regular copies to collect. Given how many completists there are nowadays, you would think they would be all over Pence copies. Whether they do or don't, whether the prices go up or down, Pence Price Variants will always always be cooler than a polar bears proverbial.

Variants of the cents priced versions ? But I don't think we're going to agree on that, which is fine. I always say, friends should be able to disagree with each other and still be friendly. -J. Hello all. Mind if I join this debate? I don't like "UK Edition" as I think that term better suits UK reprint titles such as Spider-Man Comics Weekly, or Mighty World of Marvel. To clearly identify that a comic is a first printing US produced original with a Pence price then the word "variant" needs to be used. So the logical term, given that the key variance is the price, would be "Pence Price Variant" in my opinion. I think CGC have got it wrong. "UK Edition" is a loose term. "Pence Price Variant" is a clear, factually accurate term. The same follows for "Canadian Dollar Price Variant" and "Australian Dollar Price Variant". These are the terms I use and promote when and wherever I can.

Realizing you are correct, it is sad because it's probably been done. It's this kind of thinking that scares me about the hobby. Trying to fool CGC is the new game. I would hope you drop any further discussion about this. We don't need to educate folks about hiding restoration. BTW, I agree that the book looks trimmed. One, look, before I saw any comments, I said to myself that right edge is trimmed. Sorry. Oh, I feel like I've upset you Bob. Sorry if so, it wasn't my intention. I did say I would never do it, and money is of no interest to me, I just was intrigued by the notion and thought a discussion board would be the place to debate it. But I can see your point so, again, sorry if I upset you. Mags No problem. I did note you said you would never do it so my comments were not personal, no anger . Yes, this is the place to talk about it but, IMO, it is just not the ethical think to do. Trust me, any ideas from a discussion would be implemented, somebody would try it. I just know I would be mad if I purchased a book that had been manipulated to fool CGC. I just don't feel a discussion would be proper. Thanks for the response. Even more sad is I recently saw a AF 15 purchased on eBay that was a graded blue 1.0, but about 1/3 of the cover was cut off. The purchaser basically parted the book out, and now is selling blue NG pages on eBay from that copy. I am sure of this because the NG damaged cover only (obviously the cover to the 1.0) was sold by the same seller, who is now selling pages. Once a page or cover cover is graded as incomplete cover only NG blue, does CGC even look for restoration? I saw that. Don't like it. Unfortunately, since CGC is willing to encapsulate a single page, we are going to see more of this. Assuming CGC did not envision this scenario I hope they can reconsider. Tearing up the book for more profit should not be encouraged. Bob, I agree with you personally. I would no more deface a comic than I would cut a finger off. Both are too precious to me. But a key point, if I may play Devils Advocate, is that it's my comic and the decision as to what happens to it is mine alone. Now, let's say the person who sold the 1.0 graded comic did so to feed their kids. The buyer was also on his uppers and saw a chance to make some money. The profit he made paid his rent for a month. All the page buyers were given a rare opportunity to own a page of AF15. It's all they could afford. So everyone ends up happy and the world has just one whole, visually poor AF15 comic less than it did beforehand. Is that really such a disaster when there are so many copies in existence? And, with all due respect, what does it have to do with anyone but those who owned or now own a part of it? I don't think it has anything to do with anyone but the buyer/seller but Bob is an advocate for preserving the hobby's integrity. I think most of us on the boards feel the exact same way. When it gets to a point where you cannot trust anyone enough to buy a book, things have gone too far. Integrity is very important and I salute anyone who defends it. In my experience, most people have it. Certainly the vast majority of people I have dealt with have had it. There are always rotten apples though. I ignore them. It sounds like you have had a few bad experiences but that's life. I do however think we shouldn't judge everyone so harshly. In the case of the CGC 1.0 and subsequent split up, I don't see it as a big deal. It's a low grade copy and the buyer made the most of what he had. Good for him / her. Looking at the sales, it's clear there's a market for pages. The buyer's of the pages will no doubt be happy with their purchases. The seller has made more money than he would have selling the complete low grade copy. Calling into question the integrity of those involved is a little unfair I think. People are important too. If any of the buyer's or sellers read this post, their hearts would likely sink. They might be great people. We should all try to be a little more kind I feel. Meanwhile, thanks to all who have volunteered grades. I appreciate it. And Bob, I'm sure if we met we'd get along famously if through nothing more than a love of comics. So here's another bunch to ensure we end on a kind note

Realizing you are correct, it is sad because it's probably been done. It's this kind of thinking that scares me about the hobby. Trying to fool CGC is the new game. I would hope you drop any further discussion about this. We don't need to educate folks about hiding restoration. BTW, I agree that the book looks trimmed. One, look, before I saw any comments, I said to myself that right edge is trimmed. Sorry. Oh, I feel like I've upset you Bob. Sorry if so, it wasn't my intention. I did say I would never do it, and money is of no interest to me, I just was intrigued by the notion and thought a discussion board would be the place to debate it. But I can see your point so, again, sorry if I upset you. Mags No problem. I did note you said you would never do it so my comments were not personal, no anger . Yes, this is the place to talk about it but, IMO, it is just not the ethical think to do. Trust me, any ideas from a discussion would be implemented, somebody would try it. I just know I would be mad if I purchased a book that had been manipulated to fool CGC. I just don't feel a discussion would be proper. Thanks for the response. Even more sad is I recently saw a AF 15 purchased on eBay that was a graded blue 1.0, but about 1/3 of the cover was cut off. The purchaser basically parted the book out, and now is selling blue NG pages on eBay from that copy. I am sure of this because the NG damaged cover only (obviously the cover to the 1.0) was sold by the same seller, who is now selling pages. Once a page or cover cover is graded as incomplete cover only NG blue, does CGC even look for restoration? I saw that. Don't like it. Unfortunately, since CGC is willing to encapsulate a single page, we are going to see more of this. Assuming CGC did not envision this scenario I hope they can reconsider. Tearing up the book for more profit should not be encouraged. Bob, I agree with you personally. I would no more deface a comic than I would cut a finger off. Both are too precious to me. But a key point, if I may play Devils Advocate, is that it's my comic and the decision as to what happens to it is mine alone. Now, let's say the person who sold the 1.0 graded comic did so to feed their kids. The buyer was also on his uppers and saw a chance to make some money. The profit he made paid his rent for a month. All the page buyers were given a rare opportunity to own a page of AF15. It's all they could afford. So everyone ends up happy and the world has just one whole, visually poor AF15 comic less than it did beforehand. Is that really such a disaster when there are so many copies in existence? And, with all due respect, what does it have to do with anyone but those who owned or now own a part of it?

Truly, Madly Jerkfro.

Realizing you are correct, it is sad because it's probably been done. It's this kind of thinking that scares me about the hobby. Trying to fool CGC is the new game. I would hope you drop any further discussion about this. We don't need to educate folks about hiding restoration. BTW, I agree that the book looks trimmed. One, look, before I saw any comments, I said to myself that right edge is trimmed. Sorry. Oh, I feel like I've upset you Bob. Sorry if so, it wasn't my intention. I did say I would never do it, and money is of no interest to me, I just was intrigued by the notion and thought a discussion board would be the place to debate it. But I can see your point so, again, sorry if I upset you. Mags

That right edge does look a little too sharp and straight. If it isn't trimmed, 5.5. CGC hammers stains. Gorgeous book and welcome to the Boards! -J. Cool, lots of replies already, thanks everyone! I don't think the right edge is trimmed, but the top back cover is as it is lower than the front cover top and perfectly straight / clean / sharp. The right edge is faded and has wear. But who can be sure! While we're here, why do CGC hammer stains? It's not like water damage and the book lays perfectly flat. Seems unfair. Also, if one edge is trimmed, and obviously so, what is to stop you from carefully tearing the edge to remove the trim. That would then be treated as an unrestored book wouldn't it? Seems drastic, but the difference in restored and unrestored price wise is huge. You could pass it off as marvel chipping. I would never do that by the way. I own this for love, not money. Just interested in the thought. Thanks again for the replies.

Hello Everyone. This is my first post. Hope it works! [/img] [/img] Thanks!