MasterChief

I was surfing the current Promise copies listed on Heritage last night and noticed something rather interesting. The following two books have distributor marks that look oddly alike. Both done in pencil, in the same location, and appear to be from the same hand. However, one is coded with a "K" and the other and "L" over the day and month. Any ideas as to what the meaning may be?

I'm not saying it didn't happen. But it was rare. As usual, it looks like I'm late to the discussion, by several weeks no less. That said, I'll just comment by saying that, yes, in general, old label books have a fairly good chance of not being manipulated post initial certification. However, it must be noted – from a Golden Age perspective – that old label books were the original target of maximization when the wheel of institutionalized manipulation began to turn in the summer of 2002. And those old labeled books that were acquired, manipulated, recertified, and then consequently liquidated, prior to the sunsetting of the old label, may be suspect. If that concerns you, then the Heritage Auction Archives is a great resource for conducting old label before and after due diligence in advance of a potential purchase.

Agreed. @MasterChief Thank you, gents. I appreciate the compliment!

Well, that's BS. I thought those Heritage guys said the Promise collection runs a close second to the Church collection. Therefore, Church certificates should be of greater than or equal value to the Promise ones. I feel disadvantaged. I want my auction equity!

Nice to know where it came from! I am honored to be the caretaker going forward!

Thanks for the explanation, Tim. Very helpful. While I've received these certs before, I've paid them no mind until Clark posted his (which I read in full). The language is curious. So much so I took a look at my other certs. Oddly enough, the certs for original art have different language from the Promise and Church. All of my art certs have the same wording...

I got a certificate from this auction, too. However, it was for a Mile High copy not a Promise copy, with different wording. Anyone care to explain the difference in the two?

Good catch! And the other two holes are beneath the red falling cube. So actually it was sealed with staples The paper appears somewhat frayed and discolored in both staple hole areas. Perhaps an indication of staple removal sometime after production?

You read this totally wrong. Ok, maybe not totally. But you are missing some pretty major stuff Please explain in layman's terms. Thx.

I think if this had any merit it would be in court instead of a D-level complaint website. Apparently, if I'm reading the court description correctly, there was some merit to Hughes' claim that went to arbitration and trail court with final adjudication by the Texas Court of Appeals. IMO, the event paints both Hughes and Heritage in seemingly bad light. Here's the verdict issued by the appellate court... Re: Movie Poster House, Inc. v. Heritage Auctions, Inc. (morelaw.com)

Wasn't one of Parrino's buying advisors Bill Hughes? Hughes, from what I understand, wasn't the EF Hutton of comic books that Parrino was hoping for. Bought too much too quickly. Overpaid for a lot of material. Took major losses upon liquidation. The advisors, as they say, did quite well for themselves. I personally don’t know Bill Hughes. Always admired his books and liked looking at his website. One of the big players in the hobby, so to speak. Not sure if this has been discussed before, but it seems the worm turns quickly in the wacky world of comic books... Complaint Review: Heritage Auctions Submitted: Mon, May 26, 2014 Updated: Thu, July 17, 2014 Reported By: William Hughes "Between 2001 and 2009 minimally, Heritage Auctions has used their vast financial resources, position in the collectibles industry and experience in manipulating the accounting of sales of consigned goods to steal, cheat and con clients who enter into consignment relationships with them in good faith. I personally entered into well over $3,000,000 worth of transactions with these crooks and ended up on the short end of the stick to the tune of hundreds of thousands, if not over a million dollars (I am still figuring out the magnitude of the deception and malfeasance on their part)..." Link to original report and follow-up posts: https://www.ripoffreport.com/reports/heritage-auctions/internet/heritage-auctions-heritage-comics-heritage-sports-collectibles-heritage-movie-posters-f-1149717#comment_7

Jim Halperin? I don't see any PLs in his private collection, but I suppose you never know how much of his stuff is actually listed on the website.

Regardless, if you're an investor with no knowledge of a hobby, are you going to want your money to be put into really esoteric books that might not be very liquid? If I were looking to diversify my assets into collectibles that I know little about, I'd want to know that the assets my advisor is putting me into are extremely well known and liquid. So if sports cards, then the Honus Wagner T-206, Mantle rookie card, Wayne Gretzky, Jordan, LeBron, Messi, etc. If stamps, the inverted Jenny. Even if my advisor was extremely knowledgeable about sports cards and was able to make a strong pitch that the smart money was going into Carlton Fisk cards, I'd be leery as hell. Particularly $456k going into a Carlton Fisk card. Smells like another Jay Parrino or two have entered the hobby. Perrino dropped a lot of capital on high-grade everything based solely on the lure of CGC grading and encasement in the early days. IIRC, he didn’t last long. Liquidated his "collection" in a bubble bath of losses.

The Suscha News collection is my favorite Silver/Bronze age pedigree for the breadth, depth, and original off-the-press aesthetic condition. IMO, you'll have a hard time finding better. Moreover, the story behind the collection is intriguing and establishes a nostalgic link to the original owner and uniqueness of the books. What's more, the collection was reportedly not manipulated prior to initial certification. This fact was reported by numerous sources during the initial public offering, and I independently verified it through a conversation with Vincent Zurzolo in 2019. An amazing revelation given the propensity of today's dealers to maximize certification potential through manipulation prior to resale. I started capturing certification data when the collection premiered in 2010. Data points such as titles, issue numbers, grades, certification numbers, page color, scans, and in some cases, sales info. At this point I have examined enough data to draw reasonable conclusions as to collection size and the collecting habits of the original owner. As the story goes, the original owner bought multiple copies of each issue from the local magazine distributor's backroom. The data I've collected supports that claim. The story isn't BS (as some collection claims are). I will say that it appears as though the original owner had title favorites. One of which was Conan the Barbarian. During the Marvel picture frame production period the collector was buying between 5-9 copies of each issue. I've often thought about what it must have been like to open the printer's shipping boxes in the backroom of Suscha News, digging down into the stack of freshly printed comics while smelling the newly laid ink, and selecting only the finest looking copies out of the bunch. What an experience that must have been for the original owner. Every week repeating the same scenario and not knowing what each unopened box would bring... the titles, the artwork, the new characters and the 1st issues! What an experience it must have been. The stuff that dreams are made of. And in my opinion, that is what makes the Suscha collection so special.

Yup. As reported by the Sheboygan Press, Suscha News closed in December of 2019.

There were three certified copies of FF#120 from the Suscha News collection that came to market in 2011-12 via ComicConnect. These books were graded 9.4, 9.4, 9.6, and bore sequential certification numbers. All three books were graded on 12/28/2010. Both of the 9.4s are currently searchable in the verification database. The 9.6 is not. Here are the images of the books. The 9.6 does not appear to be the newly graded 9.8 copy. It's possible that the second 9.8 copy, which appeared in the census on August 29, 2011, is the former 9.6 copy. While I have a sizable amount of data on the collection, I don’t have it all, especially raw copy books that failed the 9.2 prescreening certification process. I could be wrong, but I am fairly certain that there were no raw copies of FF#120 sold by Metropolis/ComicConnect. That said, over the course of the last several years I have seen books appear that were questionable as to being from the collection.

Sounds like Mark Zaid. He was quite upset to learn his copy was joined by an apparent CPRed 9.6.

The Promise Collection books revealed thus far by Heritage have various covers markings, including two different distributor marks, each with and without the numeric month and day indicators. The "K" with the month/day inscription is the overall prominent marking. The second distributor marking is the curly "C" with or without month/day. This particularly marking is interesting as it has similar characteristics to that of a distributor marking found on the Aurora pedigree. This may indicate that portions of the Promise Collection originated from the same western regional distributor as the Aurora books.

Not at all. I share your skepticism regarding the story. Initially, with the release of the Bleeding Cool piece, I was somewhat cynical. But became more so with the glaring contradictions made by Brian Wiedman, who was publicly representing Heritage. If Heritage was so concerned about confidentiality, then why on earth would they allow someone to speak on behalf of the company and not prepare them for the interview? It was obvious that Heritage Brian did not go over the manuscript and memorize his lines prior to going live. Moreover, there has not been a correction to the Bleeding Cool article nor has Heritage walked back the (apparent) misstatements made by Wiedman. So, suspicion builds. The military service/war tie-in angle is an altogether different element for me. Being a retired veteran, I'm keenly aware of how the military, and those who have served honorably, is sometimes exploited by those seeking personal, business, or political favor. Often used to stir up patriotism and pride for all of those that served, it can be a valuable marketing tool for entities seeking to use (or create) a story for financial gain. For those reasons, I distrust the assertion of the story. To me it's just another "Action Comics #1 stored in a cedar chest" tale. This time using the Forgotten War and a soldier's sacrifice as the hook. In my opinion, verification and clarity needs to be determined. That's my .

I really appreciate the effort you put into the thread -- the level of detective work is inspiring! I agree that you, I, or anyone has every right to discover, and piece together, as much of this story as we are humanly able to do. It is an amazing collection! So, continue your exposé. I support it in the fullest!

There are 3 promise books in the current auction with 1951 in the description. I have not checked but I suspect these books have late 1950 on-sale dates. Here's a link.

Fascinating stuff! By my count, 7 books currently display a word penciled in cursive. A few of these books are either accompanied by a short slash mark under the word and/or a distributor's mark. All of these books were published in 1949 with on-sale dates, per Grand Comics Database (GCD), between the months of May and August. The issues are listed below by the on-sale date (month/year), versus the CGC label month/year notation, in an effort to determine the proximity of the cursive word inscription. True Crime Comics #6 5/49 Detective Comics #150 6/49 Captain America Comics #74 7/49* Detective Comics #151 7/49 Marvel Tales #94 7/49* Detective Comics #152 8/49 The Saint #7 8/49 Robert, according to the story, was drafted into service. The World War II draft operated from 1940 until 1946. In the wake of the escalating Cold War, President Truman in 1948 asks that the draft be reinstated as the level of military forces falls below necessary numbers. In 1949 the scrawled word appears on the cover of Promise Collection books. This may indicate that Junie followed his brother into service (enlisted). The conflict in Korean begins in June of 1950. One ships off to war, the other remains in the rear with the gear CONUS or OCONUS. Collection timeline ends in 1951. *GCD does not list an on-sale date. Distributor mark on cover indicates "7" for the month of arrival.

Yes. And thanks for that. That was my next post.

The conflict-of-interest accusations between Heritage and CGC are largely based on Jim Halperin's shady past in the rare coin world (grading and auctioning), which eventually led to run-ins with postal inspectors and the Federal Trade Commission. You can read about it in this Forbes article from 2004: Top Drawer by Christopher Helman, Forbes Staff "Halperin, 52, is also probably the most controversial professional numismatist of all time. He has had brushes with postal inspectors, the Federal Trade Commission and coin dealers who have sued him for, among other things, sticking them with inflated prices. But then this is a profession that attracts controversy. With an estimated 130,000 U.S. collectors trading $5 billion worth of coins a year, the opportunity for mischief is considerable. A coin's value is exquisitely sensitive to how well it's preserved, and grading is highly subjective." https://www.forbes.com/forbes/2004/1227/156.html?sh=617d33d82e07

Dean and I happened to be discussing the collection right after a few of the teaser photos dropped in the thread. He asked my opinion as to whether or not the books had been manipulated. I mentioned that they appeared to be untouched as pressable defects were apparent here and there. I went on to say that the images looked to be pre-CGC submission, perhaps taken when the collection was examined. That thought became obvious with the reveal of the certified Catman #28. While we only have one example to go on so far for comparison purposes, many realize that the likelihood of the collection, in whole or in part, getting the treatment is a bonafide reality. The doctoring of the Catman #28 is particularly interesting, in my opinion. The structure of that book has been altered from its original conditional state as discovered, to that of a perceived appearance post-print production book from the 40s. As mentioned, the book perked my curiosity so much so I sprung for the grader notes. There is no mention of work performed on the book in the notes. Just the typical obtuse annotations. The exception being, the "pedigree coding" (whatever that means) for the distributor mark.